'The thing that blew my mind first hearing the Strokes was that they were the closest I had heard rock come to classical,' she says. 'Their music is extraordinarily orderly and composed. It's almost

xpost: yeah, that too

I still remember Mozart, but then there's only one of him.

Which is certainly a fucking strange thing to say!

And nabisco, I might be agreeing with you if you were saying the same thing about people's attitudes in another thread. But yeah, I think it's misguided to be doing so in this one.

"I knew right away that that was what she meant, but what makes the Strokes more orderly than the Cars or something?"

'Zactly. In my haste to defend the germ of Regina's idea, I overlooked the fact that the while it may be valid to draw some comparison between The Strokes' music and classical composition in a "Mozartian" vein, they're by no means uniquely elegant, formalist, orderly, restrained, ear-pleasing, etc.

Frankly, The Beatles, with their rococco extremes and formalist rigor, make a much better "modern-day Mozart" analog. And the Cars certainly match The Strokes for minimalist pop restraint.

Regina Spektor may not "know very much about rock music", but she's certainly heard The Beatles before!?

The quote is dumb, and Nitsuh's rants/rationalizations are bizarre!

the spirit of this thread is KILLING MUSIC
the spirit of this thread is KILLING MUSIC
the spirit of this thread is KILLING MUSIC

Every time a song on "Is This It" changes parts, the register of all the instruments changes dramatically and efficiently. Very much like Mozart.

Also, the guitars and bass are all composed/recorded/compressed to sound like a single instrument. It sounds exactly like what a classical ensemble tries to achieve.

Frankly, The Beatles, with their rococco extremes and formalist rigor, make a much better "modern-day Mozart" analog. And the Cars certainly match The Strokes for minimalist pop restraint.

YOUR THEORIES INTRIGUE ME AND I WISH TO SUBSRICBE TO YOUR NEWSLETTER

I'd like to use the word "vertical composition", although it may be perhaps too dogmatic, it is the precise word. There are few rock records I've heard that have paid as close attention to the vertical as "Is This It". The new Scott Walker is another, its vertical composition is what makes that record so good.

And cool it with the sexism oh my god oh my god.

And I do feel that "changing registers dramatically and efficiently," having "the guitars and bass composed/recorded/compressed to sound like a single instrument," and "attention to textural contrast" are superficial qualities shared by a great many composers and genres.

I'm still not seeing what it is about The Strokes that makes them particularly classical among rock bands, let alone particularly Mozartian.

Vertical composition, on the othern hand, refers to the sonic properties of the moment, and how one sound relates to the next sound. In the classical world, it's just "orchestration".

Most rock bands don't pay as much attention to this aspect of music making, although it's the "paydirt" in the electronic, r&b and pop world.

If this aspect of music making seems to you "superficial", that's fine. I consider it to be the most relevant aspect of making a recording.

Also, Regina Spektor is horrible. It's not sexism.

-- Owen Pallett

Interesting way of looking at it. Kinda exactly like the old 'montage vs. mise-en-scene' dichotomy in old film-criticism circles.

That's what I said.

Vertical composition, on the othern hand, refers to the sonic properties of the moment, and how one sound relates to the next sound. In the classical world, it's just "orchestration".

Then I don't know why you didn't say "orchestration" or texture. I've never heard anyone refer to orchestration as "vertical composition."

Most rock bands don't pay as much attention to this aspect of music making, although it's the "paydirt" in the electronic, r&b and pop world.

Many rock bands have payed a great deal of attention to orchestration; few have matched the skill of someone like Brian Wilson. And I certainly don't see why The Strokes are notable for their orchestrations.

Owen, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and I'm genuinely curious about what you're trying to say, but honestly I'm not sure if you're just trying to yank my chain here. I'm a composition major, and I don't think you're making much sense so far.

Although, you're Canadian, right Owen? Is it possible that there are some terminology differences here? Then again, I studied music in England and didn't run into many. So perhaps you can clarify some more.

There really is no question that something like The Beatles were *far* "closer to classical music" than The Strokes are.

We'd need to narrow this down to specific Beatles songs -- and specific aspects of those songs -- to really begin to examine this. (Obviously we're not talking about any of the songs with heavy dominant-seventh moves and blues changes.) So ... what, "Strawberry Fields Forever?" Except I think that sort of thing is precisely the top-level resemblance to classical music (i.e. "it has multi-part non-blues-based arrangements for horns and cellos and stuff") that Regina isn't really talking about.

(That is to say, I think she's pretty clearly presenting the observation with an implied "you know, in a weird way..." or "on one level...")

Why not? That's silly. I'd expect you to realize, based on your earlier defense of Regina's quote, that harmonic content is not the only means for comparison here. The Strokes certainly don't have Mozart's harmonic vocabulary.

The Beatles had songs with a classical-like formal organization, melodic structure, and sense of proportion, even if those songs didn't use classical instrumentation or harmonic gestures. Of course, The Beatles also had songs with classical instrumentation and harmonic gestures. Ditto The Beach Boys, The Zombies.

I may have heard the term before - or some kind of reference to *thinking vertically* with regard to composition, anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm familiar with the term. But I've never heard it used to refer to orchestration, or what you're talking about. Like I said, vertical refers to the harmonic aspect of composition, and horizontal refers to the linear. It's one of the major distinctions between the Baroque and the Classical - harmonic composition with a homophonic texture rather than contrapuntal writing. That's a very common usage.

x-post: Oh yeah, you're right. I was mixing the terms up!

He hasn't said anything that changes my mind about the value of the comparison. But I'm trying to give him the chance to explain. Were Regina posting here, I'd give her the same.

And Alan W. Pollack's notes on The Beatles points out many instances where The Beatles make some classical maneuvers.

As before, I find the argument here rather hand-wavy and insubstantial, and I don't see how it applies in any significant way to The Strokes.

I really should shut up, though, because I was just introduced to these ideas on this thread.

Fwiw, I'm gonna have to side with Steve here and say that the Strokes/Mozart comparison seems pretty superficial and uninteresting.

Ok, but the term for the tone or sonic quality of an instrument is timbre. The term for the arrangement or layering of sounds is texture. I'm just saying that tossing out inappropriate buzzwords like "vertical composition" is obfuscatory, and is only good for getting agreement from people who don't really have the background to give meaningful input to begin with.

If I said: "The liberal usage of anacrusic rhythms, upper-neighbor modulations, and melodic appogiaturas in The Strokes songs is reminiscent of Mozart's piano sonatas," would people say "Hmm, interesting, good point?" Because that's just a bunch of random crap that I made up.

And I haven't listened to the Strokes all that much, but from what I've heard, I can see that being a significant thing in their early songs. What it has to do with Mozart in particular, I'm not sure (Owen refers to string quartets, but I don't know).

x-post: yeah, I don't know how valuable the term "vertical composition" is either! And yes, it's confusing because, as you say, *thinking vertically* usually has more to do with harmony. Sorry for any confusion.

That's ok, Tim. I think if anyone is going to clear up Owen's position, it will probably be Owen.

And I hope I'm not coming across too obnoxiously here - as someone who studies composition and writes pop music, I am very interested in the intersections and parallels between the two.

But is Mozart really known for rubato? My cursory knowledge of him, based on an opera or two and my daughters's toy Mozart Cube (an excellent gift to new parents, by the way) is that his rubato ratio is low compared to, say, Puccini.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0306806495/002-8012783-3903221?v=glance&n=283155

It's not the greatest book in the world...

What can I say to defend myself that won't make me sound even more over-academic and boring? Nothing.

But serious! Listen to any Mozart quartet or divertimento, even Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. You must agree, at least, that it sounds more like The Strokes than The Beach Boys or The Cars or The Zombies.