Rolling 2006 Hip Hop Thread

Sorry I must really be misrepresenting myself. I think rap could be (or is) a great album-oriented genre--Illmatic being the prime example (and my all-time favorite album to boot). Until rappers ditch the shitty skits and the extra tracks, their albums will be lacking--BUT--that doesn't make them (to me) any less or worse artists. Just because King is about 10 tracks too long doesn't make T.I. a worse rapper or "What You Know" a worse song.

Just because King is longer than you want it to be does not make it "too long." If you like short records, that's great, good for you, you're in the vast majority around here. But I don't (and I have said this a lot and I know people are tired of it but whatever), because I like hearing all the songs and making the killer/filler judgment myself, and apparently most rap fans don't mind buying albums with more tracks on them. I think you're working on a rock paradigm where everything has to be tight and focused and auteurish, and judging albums that don't conform by that paradigm, and that is okay as long as you know that that's what you're doing.

So how is that a "rock paradigm," Matt? Most rock albums are too long, too. (In fact, if anything, prog-rock did the too-long album thing long before rap did. And as I say above, there is nothing inherent in hip-hop that *requires* albums to be long; for years, hip-hop albums weren't.) (And right, like Frank Kogan says, in the CD era, all albums are EPs, and a David Banner or Celine Dion album can be great even if you only really love four tracks on it. I understand that in theory, and even to a certain extent agree with it; it just doesn't have much to do with how albums work in my life.)

if there's only four good tracks, better fucken mention it, no matter how great they are (cos reader will have to wade through the bad, and maybe even pay to do so). An obv point, but not always taken. Yeah Mr Lif's Mo Mega's meaty-succinct and funny enuff (intentionally, which isn't as funny as unintentionally, but still funny e) He's ripe, but tourmate Cage is green (Def Jux trix don't always help); still a worthy subject for further Study (def not a albumsworth of good tracks, though)(on Hell's Winter, that is)

'most rock albums' =/ the rock albums max probably listens to.

ethan hows the new louis logic?

Chuck, I'm talking historically. Doesn't the whole idea that an album has to be tight and focused come straight out of old-school rock, refreshed after The White Album and its imitators by bubblegum, refreshed after prog by punk, refreshed after grunge by indie?

And although Frank is much wiser than me, I still think of albums as albums rather than EP fodder. I just like searching for hidden gold, I guess, rather than it being right there waiting for me on the altar.

Yeah--I ran off half-cocked & a little stoned last night.

Let me revise: I like albums. I like the album as a "statement," as a collection of songs, etc. I grew up listening to AO rock.

That being said, I recognize (as I'm sure everyone here does) that the album isn't and shouldn't be the be-all, end-all of music. Therefore, when I receive an album (like King) that comes across as bloated, overlong, incoherent, fragmented, it doesn't necessarily bother me, especially if there are--as on King--four or five absolutely killer, top-notch songs, or even eight or nine better-than-average songs. I don't feel the need to denigrate or dislike the CD because it isn't a great "album," nor do I think that hip-hop is worsening because its albums--judged as albums--are increasingly bad.

However, if an artist is presenting his or her work as an album--and T.I. is presenting King as an "album" rather than a "collection of songs" or whatever the alternative might be--I should probably be judging it based on whatever criteria I have for albums--coherence and so forth--and thusly judge it poor: too many bad songs, too many skits, too many guest appearances.

So, what I'm trying to say--the state of hip-hop: great. The state of the hip-hop album: shitty. But they aren't the same thing. AKA--I'm judging rap albums using a rock yardstick because I think the album is a rock thing, and yes, I understand I can judge them with a different yardstick but in the end I don't want to listen to an 80-minute album with 30 minutes of good tracks whether it's by T.I. or by Radiohead or whoever. So--that's to a large extent personal taste.

One last thing: the "rock paradigm" thing was sort of a dumb college-kid thing to say, I recognize that. But it's worth pointing out that in many ways T.I. is a different artist than, say, Yes--that T.I. is concerned more (at least from what I can tell, and obviously I'm jumping to conclusions) with creating specific, well-crafted songs, whereas Yes was concerned (and same caveats) more with creating specific, well-crafted albums. Obv. the role of singles and the Top 40 influences this--most if not all acts above a certain level on the "popularity" scale in the US (or at least, their labels) are probably more concerned with single/song creation than with "album" creation, b/c that's what gets play on MTV, etc. Note again that I'm jumping to conclusions all over the place and everything I say is probably refutable, but--I'm putting it out there anyway.

And FWIW--I have long albums, I've listened to them before, and bands I love make them. So I'm aware (and I'm sorry for not making this clear) that rock albums are and can be as boring as rap albums. Frankly, I don't think the "state of the rock album" is any better than the "state of the rap album." And I can't really say I care.

And it's Max, not Matt.

Matt = haikunym

...or you were talking to haikunym...

And I think lots of albums that people look back on as 'flawless' now were considered to have 'filler' when they dropped, including Illmatic. I could see people looking back in 5 years and saying, "you know what, there really are no weak tracks on King or (insert other recent rap album here)." Classic status has a tendency to sand off the rough edges we experience when we first hear an album.

I mean, some of us really LIKE rough edges.

I don't know about Illmatic, which is what, 10 tracks and 40 minutes? Reasonable Doubt, maybe, or Ready to Die. And certainly Enter the Wu-Tang. So point taken.

But I do think that making yr. album impossible to listen to in one sitting--which I think is pretty much guaranteed with 18 track, 80-minute monsters like King--makes it harder to be assigned "classic" status.

The Yes albums I like (on my CD shelf right now: Yes, The Yes Album, Fragile, Tormato, 90125) are just collections of songs, too. (Or okay, collections of tracks, at least.) I've never particularly cared about the cohesive and coherent concept thing, and never will. And the rap albums I use as my yardstick aren't by Nas, but by the Real Roxanne, Roxanne Shante, Schooly D, Spoonie Gee, L'Trimm, Run DMC, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, the Treacherous Three (six singles, no filler!), and, above all probably, Various Artists. (And no doubt a few other people I'm not thinking of at the moment.)

Most hip-hop Yes song: "Owner of a Lonely Heart," but that's obvious.

Whats the running time for Cuban Linx?

xp And I guess my main point now about separating the wheat from the chaff on super-long CDs isn't so much that super-long CDs are bad by definition as that, by the time I get through them and absorb all of what's there, I've probably long given up on caring and moved on to something else. In an age when scores of potentially interesting albums (among which hip-hop ones are just one significant fraction) come out every week, it's hard for me to see, in practice, how that can't be a consideration. If you're making an album for me, making it too long for me to absorb is self-defeating. And sure, obviously, most hip-hop albums (most EVERYTHING albums) (hell, ALL everything albums) are NOT made for me. But I'm going to judge them by the extent to which they matter to me anyway. Just like anybody would.

Let me take this opportunity to take back what I said about rap not producing more than a dozen classic albums, in retrospect

Cuban Linx: 1 hour, 13 minutes, 27 seconds. And, yes a classic. But still too many skits.

I have been cowed into submission.

Oh and xhuxk, x-post OTM. i suppose we are, in the end, mostly in agreement, I was just misunderstanding/misspeaking.

>Doesn't the whole idea that an album has to be tight and focused come straight out of old-school rock<

It comes out of country. And soul. And Frank Sinatra. (And Matt, you may be the first person I've ever heard who suggested that bubblegum albums were especially tight and focused, not to mention a reaction to the White Album. Which doesn't mean they weren't. But I've sure never thought of, say, 1910 Fruitgum Company albums as part of any "rock paradigm.") (I've also never thought of indie albums as especially short, but maybe that's just 'cause, for me, 10 minutes of most indie rock feels like a couple eternities in purgatory.)

I don't really buy the "different paradigm" idea - most rap heads I talk to reserve their most glowing praise for albums where the killer-to-filler ratio tilts heavily in favor of the former quality. I mean, the idea that one wants one's entertainment fare to consist mainly of the stuff one likes isn't really a "rockist" idea. It's a good-thing-likerist idea.

Fear of rockism is now officially worse than rockism. "This album has too many shitty tracks on it!" —"Rockist!"

deej its got some good lyrics & storytelling shit & jj browns jazzy beats but too many of lou's wack late 90s alt-rock hooks - still a decent record if you like his style, i just kinda wish hed go back to tracks like ugly truth & diablos & mother molesters and less like a million variations on idiot gear

so what ever happened to the neptunes beat that they sold ( to nas i think..or busta - cant remember) for 2 million ?

i always thought that was just a rumor & it never really happened.

i can sort of imagine nas paying that much for it and it turning out to be pretty mediocre.

xpost download 'rule by a fool' (sick), 'perfect circle' (real lyrical), 'up to no good' (flow switch up). 'classy mcnasty', 'morning after pill', 'beginners lust'

xxxxxxxxxxxxxpost:
Cuban Linx: 1 hour, 13 minutes, 27 seconds. And, yes a classic. But still too many skits.

No way! While I usually hate the skit tracks on rap albums, Cuban Linx' skits are gold! It's what all rap-skit-albums should aspire to.

Oh, come on--"Shark Niggas (Biters)"? Just come out and accuse Biggie of ripping Nas.

Puttin' they childhood picture on they album covers and shit

Although if it instigated "Last Real Nigga Alive" which is for my money one of Nas's best tracks I suppose I can't fault it.

Not only only person noted to have mention bubblegum albums being tight and focussed, but White Album tight and focussed, although if "after" White Album means W A as influential as an example of how *not* to do it, could be (not that I don't like White Album, but it's always sounded like most of it's "Eh, shove it under the door and I'll add a couple harmonies, and be quick about it, cos I'll have one for you to add on tomorrow.")Not that there might not be some degree of unity I've missed, and I haven't heard many bubblegum albums, so no opinion there.xpost re my prev mention of Celia Cruz,Rockist_Scientist doesn't think she EVER got to "consistently recording in English" (except for *some* club singles I was over-extrapolating from/ talking out of my ass re).

The White Album could have been an OK EP.

But if the Be4tles had cut it down themselves, they might have cut out the good stuff and left the bad.

What if T.I. had cut it down to 45 minutes and gotten rid of most of the good and kept all the bad?

seward came up with the idea for this on the terrible has rap gotten worse? why? thread, and I kinda agreed it could be good, since i don't have the energy to start threads about individual records anymore. so don't fuck it up with "the state of hip hop" discussions, just talk about records.
-- Alex in Baltimore (shipley.a...), April 13th, 2006 12:31 AM.

fuck outta here with this White Album and what genres make good albums bullshit.

These debates about state-of-albums only happen in hip-hop threads, even though everyone always adds that "...of course, all genres..." disclaimer.

deeej OTM, Al OTM if he's agreeing with me but not if he's not. I like the "White Album" just fine and also think that rap had to have its own 'let's make grand freakin' statements' period just like Any Other Genre In Any Artistic Endeavor Ever, some of them were good and some of them not, some of them shouldn't ever be reduced to suit short-attention-span people, some of them maybe go on too long, some of them are right the way they are, case by case basis, Strictly Business good for its tightness but Walking With a Panther great for its looseness, Common was right to make Electric Circus (expand the parameters) and then follow it up with Be (pare away, get back to basics), best hip-hop album of decade so far probably huge "bloated" epic by Chingo Bling which has GREAT skits and AWESOME guest shots and I can't think of two songs I'd ditch so he was right to do that too, too bad none of you except Ethan bothered with it, please no grand statements by internet people about who "should" do what, that includes me. Except that I like Frank's line of thinking about artists and their self-editing, no rap masterpiecess left on the cutting room floor.

I hate to see a hip hop thread devole into another Rockism wankfest, however I do see the obession about "classic" albums as a response to the (what else can you call it?) rockist trend in the '80s (by Rolling Stone especially) to identify and consecrate a rock "canon."
Illmatic, which has become the hip hop Sgt. Pepper, legitimizes rap for certain people who can't accept the single>>album thing. A lot of the frustration people seem to have with current hip hop is that it doesn't follow the Illmatic model-- running time: too long, guests: too many, subject matter: not "deep." I admit that I also object to the mediocre tracks produced by trying to please various factions-- the streets, the club, the heads, the ladies. Rap CDs are schizophrenic. And even though underground "integrity" can be boring, the last hip hop album I really loved was 2005's "Lost" by Cool Calm Pete.

All the other good rolling threads (bubblegum, metal, teen-pop) talk about the state of those genres; there's no reason at all this one shouldn't, too. Limiting to "just talk about records" would make it duller. But I'll shut up (at least for now) about hip-hop CD lengths (which I *do* see as problematic now, in a way, say, country CD lengths generally aren't, and hip-hop album lengths once weren't. But I've already said why.)(Though I will say it's also not hard to split 80 minutes into TWO albums, if you don't want any to be lost.)

I meant "country, metal, teen-pop" (which isn't bubblegum enough, as I've said somewhere on that thread I'm sure, though it's improving.)

why the fuck should i pay twice for shit that could be on one cd just so some promo-getting rock critic fuck can play out his corny rock crit fantasies with rap music??

why the fuck can't they charge you half as much per CD? (i'm more likely to BUY EPs than albums, too. always have. they're less work.)

i mean, hell, don't even get me started on the uselessness of BOX SETS (if you really wannna talk about music for corny rock critic fucks.)

Why not just go pick up a bunch of shitty forgotten rap albums from the 50 cent bin? Quantity is better. You could have 100 crappy tracks for the price of one dope album.

Ha ha, I do. (And pretty often those supposedly "shitty" albums have some great tracks on them.) (And not just the hip-hop ones.)

yeah i do that shit too - buy 17 dollar bin cds, burn hottest track from each to 1 cd-r = classic 17-track $17 album

You guys have checkmated me.

the last hip hop album I really loved was 2005's "Lost" by Cool Calm Pete.

-- ramon fernandez (ideaoforderatkeywes...)

the last hip hop album I really loved was 2005's "Lost" by Cool Calm Pete.

-- ramon fernandez (ideaoforderatkeywes...)

the last hip hop album I really loved was 2005's "Lost" by Cool Calm Pete.

-- ramon fernandez (ideaoforderatkeywes...)

http://www.soundvenue.com/upload/anmeldelse/2006-01/coolcalmpete_25012006_top.jpg

3 Times Dope

i didnt know adrian tomine rapped

Are we about to embark on an "Asians can't rap" journey? Let me pack my throwing stars.

Make Ya Baby Daddy Madd