Irish Travellers

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just in case it continues in the racism thread, seems that ENBB is on a serious quest for info. might be useful to have a dedicated thread says i.

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 10:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

Is this a hint? lol. I almost started one last night but didn't think there'd be enough interest.

ENBB, Friday, 20 January 2012 12:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

probably not but jesus who did it ever stop before

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 12:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

deems have u been following tyson fury's inexorable progress to heavyweight unification?

The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 20 January 2012 12:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i've not

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

ok well hes a huge manc fucker with possible bipolar disorder whose dad is in prison for gouging some other traveller dudes eye out, he had moderate viral success with the one time he managed to punch himself in the face and if he ever fights in vegas then may god have mercy on the locals

The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

rah

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

i guess

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

Used to love this song when I was a boy.

beachville, Friday, 20 January 2012 13:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

Travellers/"itinterants" have been replaced by "the Romanians" as scapegoats/pariahs for my parents, as far as I can see. "At least they're ours" etc.

Angrrau Birds (seandalai), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Are the Romanians mostly Roma?

Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

Mark G, Friday, 20 January 2012 13:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

Pretty sure some Romanians are more welcome than others

Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

and some Romanians' mothers are more welcome than other Romanians' mothers.

c sharp major, Friday, 20 January 2012 13:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Irish Travellers, English Caravan"

Mark G, Friday, 20 January 2012 13:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

tyson fury will be a morrisey cause celebre

The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

They have so much in common

Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

i met a man once who said, of a london irish coworker (working in london), "she moves house so much, i always say to her, she ought to be applying for those benefits for travellers from the council" and i thought, wow, she must really hate you if you're genuinely saying that to her all the time. but maybe i was being unfair to her by assuming her reaction would be 'how dare you compare me to them'...

c sharp major, Friday, 20 January 2012 13:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

xps, half the "Romanians" are Bulgarian, Lithuanian, Latvian, etc. It's pretty much a catch-all term for most Eastern European immigrants in the Midlands. Maybe the rest of Ireland is different.

Certainly a percentage would be Romani but by no means all.

Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

manc irish, histrionic, shared preoccupation w/ witeboy thug esthetics xxp

The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

6ft 9

Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

Think the Poles/Lithuanians/etc. go in a different box - they're "hard-working" and "stealing our jobs". The Romanians/etc. are "lazy" and "should do an honest day's work".

(For fear anyone gets the wrong idea given my previous post, my parents are quite cool and don't say these things, they do have a prejudicial wariness of certain groups though. Other people I know certainly do think this way)

Angrrau Birds (seandalai), Friday, 20 January 2012 13:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

Having only a really shallow knowledge of these things: I recently watched the film Fish Tank. Is the family who lives in the vacant lot and has as horse most likely Irish travelers?

mh, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

has anyone seen knuckle

lag∞n, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

another good (drama) film about travellers:

ban this sick stunt (anagram), Friday, 20 January 2012 14:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

Overexposure beckons for these fellows

Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Friday, 20 January 2012 14:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

award-winning film about traveller life from a 13 yr old girl's perspective- 'paved lackeen', might be worth a look.

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 14:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol ive had pavee lackeen sitting on my computer for years during which time id totally forgotten what it was abt why I downloaded it or what language that is even

lag∞n, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

looks tibeto-burman

The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 20 January 2012 14:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's english, accented iirc, tho there's dialects based on irish and a merging of both, gammon and cant iirc

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 14:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oooh I'm gonna watch that.

Darragh otm re the English. The accent is really interesting.

ENBB, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

Some still speak Cant apparently - even the American-born travellers.

ENBB, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

lag∞n, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, gonna watch that too.

The secrecy is one of the most interesting things.

Also, I was watching some clip from a documentary someone did (not the lolweddding show) and there was a girl who was working and still in school at 16 which is apparently v v rare. For her birthday she and a bunch of friends went paintballing and she had to fill out all the forms for everyone because she was the only one who could read and write well enough to do so.

ENBB, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

Literacy levels are pretty low

Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Friday, 20 January 2012 14:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also interesting is that despite the sexualization of very young girls (pagent-like clothes/makeup on toddlers and teens wearing insanely skimpy outfits) they supposedly maintain a really strict code of behavior including no sex before marriage. Maybe that's one of the reasons they wed so young? Women are also not allowed to drink though my facebook research last night seemed to indicate that that part might not be that strictly adhered to anymore.

ENBB, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah cant is still spoken alright

Irish for 'talk' is caint p. conch, maybe where it comes from-

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 14:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh, there is also "grabbing".

ENBB, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

But apparently grabbing might not really be really.

Lots of DV too. It's really pretty grim.

This article is fairly interesting:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/feb/25/truth-about-gypsy-traveller-life-women

ENBB, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also, I was watching some clip from a documentary someone did (not the lolweddding show) and there was a girl who was working and still in school at 16 which is apparently v v rare. For her birthday she and a bunch of friends went paintballing and she had to fill out all the forms for everyone because she was the only one who could read and write well enough to do so.

Pretty sure this was Gypsy Weddings, I remember seeing it.

We had an Irish Traveller girl in our class at school, she was on the register but only actually ever turned up once or twice. I always figured it might be because she was travelling and miles away but I'm not sure.

Dust, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

We had a traveller lad at ours. I remember he liked to fight a lot.

Mark G, Friday, 20 January 2012 14:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

numeracy and literacy are very low, improving rapidly enough in young women, life expectancy, convictions, suicide, addiction all lamentable compared to general population, some of that's improving, employment is non-existent except for self-employment or traveller specific community schemes to improve literacy etc within themselves

Most travellers live in rented accommodation these days, or will have halting sites provided by local councils- the emphasis is on getting them accommodated to a good standard, but often of necessity that means in a settled manner, which is seen as an anti-traveller-lifestyle measure

etc

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 14:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

x-post - It might have been then. I spent one day watching loads of Youtube clips from various things so I can't remember what was what.

Yeah Darragh from what I understand the actual traveling part is changing a lot because of laws imposed to prevent people from setting up camp on vacant ground so while many still identify as Travellers culturally, they do a lot less actual traveling as whole family units than they did years ago.

ENBB, Friday, 20 January 2012 15:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

There was a woman who won a beauty contest in Europe some years ago, whose dad or family leader told her not to take the scholarship and endorsements, so after winning the whole thing, she turned it down to go back to her family. That's all I can remember....

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 20 January 2012 15:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

why do they travel, whatre they up to, srs question

lag∞n, Friday, 20 January 2012 15:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

xxp The whole Dale Farm farago a case in point when it comes to trying to reconcile the Traveller lifestyle and behavioural norms with planning and other council regulations IIRC. Of course all that ties into attitudinal issues and issues to do with prejudice towards travellers.

good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Friday, 20 January 2012 15:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Is that the big site in Essex?

ENBB, Friday, 20 January 2012 15:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

yes, as was. Not heard much about it since the evictions TBH- no longer considered "news" I suppose.

good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Friday, 20 January 2012 15:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's a big change atm, i don't know what internal debate process is taking place but certainly they're settling in growing numbers and leaving camps/caravans/transiency behind

There's been an explosion in traveller population in recent years due to young families returning from england because of housing initiatives available here since 2004 or so, leading to inevitable complaints of queue-skipping etc

Nobody would be too happy to see a traveller family move next door either, it's worth pointing out, and it's be remiss of me to dismiss that as nothing but prejudice, you would have a lot higher instance of antisocial behaviour among traveller familes as opposed to settled tbh

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 15:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

neil- many of those families moved to a ?legal? site nearby iirc

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 15:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

yes- but more legal shenanigans by the look of it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/19/dale-farm-travellers-eviction-battle?newsfeed=true

good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Friday, 20 January 2012 15:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

As far as i know, until the 1990s local authorities in England were forced by law to provide halting sites for nomadic populations. That was abolished, forcing travellers and nomadic Roma groups to settle on private land, which causes all sorts of problems.

At the same time, there's also a responsibility to house them in regular council developments should they wish to take up that option. More and more, in the UK at least, are doing that because it's not worth the hassle of moving from one site to the next, waiting to be evicted.

Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Friday, 20 January 2012 15:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

heh you wouldn't know by my constant waffling but i'm on a phone so can't access articles in real time, will take a look later

(govtname)mac (darraghmac), Friday, 20 January 2012 15:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

2.40, 3.20, 4.15 for the real action moments

pet tommy & the barkhaters (darraghmac), Wednesday, 9 May 2012 23:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

I just learned Garda is the police? Man, at least one dn makes more sense now.

mh, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 23:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

now i'm watchin fights, can't help it

pet tommy & the barkhaters (darraghmac), Wednesday, 9 May 2012 23:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

I watched Knuckle the other week. Those fuckin guys.

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Thursday, 10 May 2012 09:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

Is this what is meant by "I've a horse outside"?

i will show you fear in a handful of nuts (how's life), Thursday, 10 May 2012 12:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

broadly yes, tbh

pet tommy & the barkhaters (darraghmac), Thursday, 10 May 2012 12:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

7 months pass...

connors family convicted of forced labour, nasty fuckin details tbh

first u get the flower, then u get the honey, then u get the stamen (darraghmac), Friday, 14 December 2012 14:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Irish Travelers use a secret argot or cant known as Gammon. It is used primarily to conceal meaning from outsiders, especially during business transactions and in the presence of police. Most Gammon utterances are terse and spoken so quickly that a non-Traveler might conclude the words merely had been garbled. Most Gammon words were formed from Irish Gaelic by applying four techniques: reversal, metathesis, affixing, and substitution. In the first, an Irish word is reversed to form a Gammon one - mac, or son, in Irish became kam in Gammon. In the second, consonants or consonant clusters were transposed. Thirdly, a sound or cluster of sounds were either prefixed or suffixed to an Irish word. Some of the more frequently prefixed sounds were s, gr, and g. For example, Obair, work or job, became gruber in Gammon. Lastly, many Gammon words were formed by substituting an arbitrary consonant or consonant cluster in an Irish word. In recent years, modern slang and Romani (the language of the gypsies) words have been incorporated. The grammar and syntax are English. The first vocabulary collected from Irish Travelers was published in 1808, indicating that Gammon dates at least back to the 1700s. But many early Celtic scholars who studied it, including the eminent Kuno Meyer, concluded it was much older.

i was gonna try to learn java or c# or something useful, but doesn't this sound fun?

b'hurt's tauntin' (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:21 (1 year ago) Permalink

that sounds like bullshit.

Say Bo to a (Fizzles), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

I mean more fun, but bullsjit.

Say Bo to a (Fizzles), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

when you've heard it spoken it sounds like idk what

b'hurt's tauntin' (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

tbf i could say the same about english as spoken round my way so pinch of salt with yr gammon

b'hurt's tauntin' (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeh for sure. English is one of the most skewed accents I've heered.

Say Bo to a (Fizzles), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

idk the whole secret cant feels too organised a concept. cant/jargon feels like a general language thing.

Say Bo to a (Fizzles), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

dont all languages have thieves cants

How many of these effluential surveys do you take? (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

russian certainly does

lombards probably describe all southern dialects thusly

How many of these effluential surveys do you take? (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

apparently the 'secrecy' aspect is overstressed

xp probably

i remember after moving the 15th or 16th time all the travellers kids in the new town assumed i was one of em and kept addressing me in gammon for like 3-4 months it was weird

b'hurt's tauntin' (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

do you look like your parents? maybe you are secretly a traveller by blood and they knew it

mh, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 01:55 (1 year ago) Permalink

by the time you've moved 15 times the blood kinda starts to become insignificant tbph

b'hurt's tauntin' (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 02:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

Cockney rhyming slang and Polari are generally talked about as being "secret" argots as well, i think. idk how true that is in the case of the former.

Head Cheerleader, Homecoming Queen and part-time model (ShariVari), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 09:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

Is Gammon the same as shelta?

questino (seandalai), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 12:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

Ah, apparently so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelta

questino (seandalai), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 12:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

that's lightweight gammon

dog latin, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 12:55 (1 year ago) Permalink


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