The Trouble with the Sociology of Pop

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It's anyway an oxymoron, you may say. Maybe. But I want to get at the specific problems. I have been reading Steve Redhead's END OF THE CENTURY PARTY, which in its little way is one of the better books I have ever read about pop. And yet - academic / sociological writing re. pop (ie NOT what Tom Ewing, Nick Kent et al do) seems to have a twin problem:

a) it focuses on what's Important - Punk, Hip-Hop - but can't make you feel that it's... interesting. (For me, hip-hop is by definition never interesting: so an account of pop that relies on it - and all Serious accounts of recent pop do - becomes automatically uncompelling, and at best merely worthy.)

b) when it dares to do the opposite it seems trivial: eg. sociologists / cultural studies people writing about the Wonder Stuff or HMHBiscuit seem silly, special pleaders.

So either they talk about the Big Important things, but give little sense of why people might have become excited by them; or, they talk about little things that have excited them - but whereas a Ewing can make that feel worthwhile, in an academic piece it seems like a distraction from what they ought to be doing, an excuse that doesn't really fit into the main narrative.

the pinefox, Thursday, 5 September 2002 10:11 (twenty-one years ago) link


New special pleading Grand Unified Theories.

the pinefox, Thursday, 5 September 2002 10:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

did you ever read s.frith's performance rites, pf?

(i entirely agree, btw: more later maybe when i have gathered my thoughts)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 5 September 2002 10:17 (twenty-one years ago) link

Can you give us some more examples? I've read lots of pop books, but I don't know how many were sociological. Books about soul inevitable talk about civil rights, but I think this generally helps to make them more compelling rather than the other way round.

I read the (huge) Vibe Book of Hip-Hop and by far and away the best pieces were those about artists not generally taken seriously, such as MC Hammer.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Thursday, 5 September 2002 10:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

(a prepared response, inevitably to another question)

In this hand, we have the entire mass of critical theory about pop music and its relevance to life during the last 50 years.

In this hand, we have Moulin Rouge.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 5 September 2002 10:28 (twenty-one years ago) link


I have seen neither.

Miller: your request for more examples is OTM. My term 'sociology' may well not be. I'm probably talking about 'cultural studies', really - not, for instance, The History Of The Blues, or whatever. I can well believe that serious sense of political urgency could make a pop story more compelling, though I think that in many pop narratives the urgency is too contrived and implausible (punkers vs the vicious dictatorship of... Jim Callaghan, blah).

the pinefox, Thursday, 5 September 2002 10:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

what d'you think of england's dreaming pf?

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 5 September 2002 11:05 (twenty-one years ago) link

It might be interesting to compare the availible writing on classical music too - because I'm not convinced it has ever been something that has been cracked in either field. Unlike literature/film where the areas of sociological interest can be enlivened by a direct discussion of the text (be it by precis or excerption) it is nigh on impossible to do this with music. In the end your stuck with the idea that this stuff is important becasue people liked it - the release potentially contained within music is a bit ineffable.

Pete (Pete), Thursday, 5 September 2002 11:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

I'm inclined to agree with your central point, Pinefox, but that "Hip-hop is by definition never interesting" snipe seems odd. If you're starting from that assumption (or even those kinds of assumptions), it's hard for me to imagine what you would find interesting.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 5 September 2002 11:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

The first hip-hop thing I ever saw was Schoolly D supporting Big Audio Dynamite. 1986, I suppose. Everyone kept spitting at him. His bouncers flicked the vees at everyone. Several years later, the Schoolly D school of entertainment ruled the world, and the spitters were never heard of again.

I think this could be the seed for a bit of cultural studies, but you'd have to keep quiet about the fact that people were spitting at Big Audio Dynamite too and perhaps they just liked spitting.

Perhaps this goes some way to illustrating why 'important' things are more popular for serious study than Big Audio Dynamite.

Another reason might be that 'important' things are more likely to attract readers, and cultural studies is as market based as anything else.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Thursday, 5 September 2002 11:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

i think most people would agree with your central point. what i can't see is that it IS a problem.

Alan (Alan), Thursday, 5 September 2002 11:28 (twenty-one years ago) link


Baran: fine, you could well be right.

Mark S: I don't really know the texts that you helpfully mention - have only flicked E's Dr (though I do own it) - so I am backward re. that question, sorry.

Miller: hooray for a) flicking the V's and b) the BAD point.

Why is it a problem? Well, it's not an earth-shattering one, but it's an anomaly. 'The academy' (vague phrase) likes to think that it can give cogent and reliable accounts of physics, geology, how the sun works, how metals differ from one another; and also, why the Irish famine or Easter Rising started, and how many working-class people there were in Doncaster in 1952. And also, maybe (but we're pushing the envelope), how literature works, or what we do when we read it (I don't say that the academy DOES have all these things sewn up, but that to do so is, in principle, part of its function, its job-description.) So we reach popular fiction or Hollywood (of which there have been reasonably cogent, though not definitive, academic accounts) - and then, at the last outpost, we reach --

POP MUSIC.

It is the fact of pop's place on this map - its seemingly anomalous status - that makes the problem, or the issue, or the question, real and worth pondering.

the pinefox, Thursday, 5 September 2002 14:09 (twenty-one years ago) link


PS / Mark S: I have always distrusted Frith (how about you?), partly for the kind of reasons given in my question, but I fear that I may now have to read him properly at last.

the pinefox, Thursday, 5 September 2002 14:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

Perf Rites is a brilliant idea that doesn't come off. Sound Effects has some brilliant ideas in it, smothered by the sociology somewhat. You should read him. I don't distrust him: I think he's too quiet-spoken, though.

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 5 September 2002 14:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

i think the pinefox is OTM as usual re: 'cultural studies'-style writing about music. most of it does not bridge the gap between these two problems at all; there are some absolutely hysterical academic journals in my school's library devoted to pop, ones that make the NME look like the New York Times Review of Books.

but, there is an equally large schism in the pop writing world. if pop writers stray too far from a discussion of the music itself, most people who aren't pop writers themselves tune out (same reaction as pinefox prob #1: it's too boring/irrelevant). in my experience, people like greil marcus and jon savage are not much praised on these boards. on the other hand, people who focus exclusively on describing and judging the music are also ignored on ILX (see pinefox prob #2: trivial and shallow).

the idea of pop music as approached from a sociological standpoint is a farily recent one, even more recent than pop reviews thenmselves (i think). perhaps the great books on the subject have simply not yet been written?

(mark s chime in please)

Dave M. (rotten03), Thursday, 5 September 2002 14:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

damnit, i thought the new boards warned you when people post while you're typing.

Dave M. (rotten03), Thursday, 5 September 2002 14:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

This may or may not be helpful, but I've never yet read a sociology text which gives me the impression that the writer has any real feeling for how and why the pop things they're talking about might be great. It may be that the academic style bashes out from the writing exactly what I've been brought up to value and fails to replace it with something I find worthwhile.

Tim (Tim), Thursday, 5 September 2002 14:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

This seems to me exactly right. On the other hand, it always seemed so likely to be right that I've avoided reading any of the stuff. So I'm hardly an authority.

ArfArf, Thursday, 5 September 2002 15:17 (twenty-one years ago) link


TH: I agree that there is some kind of Fact / Value problem that is damaging (I *think* that's what you're getting at).

Actually if 'sociology' was all Fact it would maybe be OK. eg: Mark S has said in the past that punk rock was kind of really middle-class. If true, this is a 'sociological' observation, and maybe a useful one.

The trouble is when a 'factual' history gets 'values' stirred into it. It's not sheer factuality that's the problem, but the wrong mix of fact and value. (How about that?)

Obviously

>>> "i think the pinefox is OTM as usual"

is valuable talk, as well as factual.

the pinefox, Thursday, 5 September 2002 15:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

For me, a large proportion of sociology is poorly argued and on extremely shaky foundations, in terms of its claimed 'scientific' basis. Even more of it is drearily or downright ineptly written. On the other hand, music is very difficult to write about well, in a way that seems true and useful and fresh and entertaining. It's rare enough to find anyone who can write about either area in a way that is really much worth reading. To want both at once is to enter the realms of fantasy.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 5 September 2002 16:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

out of curiosity, where do 'cultural studies' end and where does 'sociology' begin?

Dave M. (rotten03), Thursday, 5 September 2002 16:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

Interpolating from Tim's post: I've never yet read a sociology text which gives me the impression that the writer has any real feeling for the how and why of the things they're talking about.

Mary (Mary), Thursday, 5 September 2002 16:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

well dave, sociology seems to aspire to be a science but cultural studies does not. for what that's worth.

Josh (Josh), Thursday, 5 September 2002 18:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

pinefox, you mention that there have been 'cogent though not definitive' academic accounts of hollywood, popular fiction, etc. why do you set them apart from pop music? I'm not nearly as familiar with academic pop music theory as I should be, but I have the impression that its academic accounts currently stand a lot like those of other popular/mass arts. but like pop music, I never feel as if the ones you set apart - hollywood and popular fiction - have really gotten that OTHER part right that you're talking about. did you mean to imply otherwise?

I am fond of the idea that pop music is more anti-theoretical/anti-systematic (in the sense of its susceptibility to being 'gotten' by a theory) than any other kind of cultural product or artform or etc. I even eye warily some reasons for backing this idea up, from time to time.

Josh (Josh), Friday, 6 September 2002 01:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

Sociology as I know it stopped 'aspiring to be a science' in the 50s. Outposts of naive positivism do remain (primarily American undergraduate textbooks, in my experience). And c'mon, the discipline boasts no greater proportion of badly written or ill-reasoned work than any other. The world's full of crap reasoning and bad writing. I could provide a list of sociological work *full* of a sense of the 'how and why' of its subject matter, which you could all rigorously ignore in favour of a 2-dimensional caricature of the discipline. (It would probably start with MArx and Engels, except that their aspirations to scientific status would be embarrassing).

Ellie (Ellie), Friday, 6 September 2002 06:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

online exchange with frith due soon at www.rockcritics.com, so get yr questions ready!!

mark s (mark s), Friday, 6 September 2002 07:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

Gah I can't make my Watership Down joke work.

Tim (Tim), Friday, 6 September 2002 07:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

Tim do you like Silflay?

mark s (mark s), Friday, 6 September 2002 07:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

It's called Olay now.

Tim (Tim), Friday, 6 September 2002 07:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

Even the rabbots know the horror of Zorn.

Tim (Tim), Friday, 6 September 2002 07:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

haha rabbots, get to it Alan...

Tim (Tim), Friday, 6 September 2002 07:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

Major prob. w/ sociological music writing - it's normally written by ppl who are sociologists first and music fans/listeners second (Frith and Dave Laing partially excepted). So the writing A) doesn't really ever get to the 'deep structure of feeling' behind the recs themselves, and B) generally shows too much interest in the subculturally 'spectacular' and 'oppositional' (ie punk, hip-hop, jungle etc). In many ways ILM, in its totality, is a more interesting/useful sociological study of music consumption than any amount of Hebdige-derived theorising.

I think there is a place, a gap in the market, for a sociological music criticism that investigates much more fully the relationship between music makers and their audiences - from the point of view of the 'user' esp. - although its difficult to know exactly how this cld ever be quantified through research, or 'participant observation' ...

Andrew L (Andrew L), Friday, 6 September 2002 08:18 (twenty-one years ago) link


Josh K:

>>> pinefox, you mention that there have been 'cogent though not definitive' academic accounts of hollywood, popular fiction, etc. why do you set them apart from pop music?

probably 2 reasons:

a) they are more long-running and established (film theory since Cahiers --> 60s --> Screen, etc; pop fiction since QD Leavis, Hoggart, through to Radway et al) - whereas pop theory has always seemed stunted and hesitant (eg; Frith is still the only name! and this after his Mercury Music fiascos!)

b) I have a stronger emotional investment in pop, so I am more inclined to see deficiencies in theories of it (cf Hopkins above). This of course carries the corollary that I could well be WRONG re. theories of popular fiction, cos I don't know so much about pop fiction itself.

>>> I'm not nearly as familiar with academic pop music theory as I should be, but I have the impression that its academic accounts currently stand a lot like those of other popular/mass arts.

(see, here I disagree: as above)

>>> but like pop music, I never feel as if the ones you set apart - hollywood and popular fiction - have really gotten that OTHER part right that you're talking about. did you mean to imply otherwise?

No, probably not. Maybe I am saying that a sufficiently impressive discursive structure has been erected to make that seem less important.

>>> I am fond of the idea that pop music is more anti-theoretical/anti-systematic (in the sense of its susceptibility to being 'gotten' by a theory) than any other kind of cultural product or artform or etc.

I'm not theoretically fond of this idea - but for me, when I think about it (eg now), it kind of *feels* true. I think the key must be not so much in pop itself as in the nature of fandom / the kind of investments we make in it.

the pinefox, Friday, 6 September 2002 08:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

thesis: music *itself* is anti-systemic by virtue of having evolved wordless logics of construction — its essence is its slippiness? (translation is always analogical-provisional?) (viz sociology projects sub-cultural fixities that BY DEFINITION conflict with the reasons those within any given sub-culture are attracted to any given music-type)

haha where is zizek when i need him?

mark s (mark s), Friday, 6 September 2002 09:19 (twenty-one years ago) link


Buried far underground, since the success of my recent top-secret plan.

the pinefox, Friday, 6 September 2002 09:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

sorry ellie! I was just being catty.

Josh (Josh), Friday, 6 September 2002 11:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

I do agree that it's something to do with fandom or just being a listener, pinefox, but I also think there are certain facts about music in general (sort of metaphysica/ontological ones?) and pop music in particular (as opposed to say art music/classical; sociological, economic, etc. etc. facts) that make that importance of being a listener possible in ways that are distinct from literature, film, etc. mark may have in a way referred to some of the facts I vaguely have in mind, but I don't quite understand his post so I can't say really.

Josh (Josh), Friday, 6 September 2002 11:32 (twenty-one years ago) link


I think you may be right - please tell more if it comes to you.

the pinefox, Friday, 6 September 2002 11:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

music *itself* is anti-systemic by virtue of having evolved wordless logics of construction — its essence is its slippiness?

then how do you explain visual art theory?

maybe the reason it's so hard to pin down is that no matter what the subject, at some point in the book the writer has to grit his teeth and describe what is important in this music, not only in a general sense but also how it specifically relates to his argument. i think sociologists simply aren't very good at doing it in a way we're interested in, and/or familiar with, and pop writers become so focused on emphasizing their new-found use of theory that they trip up in the actual writing.

Dave M. (rotten03), Friday, 6 September 2002 12:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

and - certainly the way we can form investments in cultural stuff seems to be similar in music as in literature, etc., I just think that the specifically pop-musical facts I mentioned give our tendencies to make investments in certain ways more purchase, more of a foothold, than lit/film/etc.

Josh (Josh), Friday, 6 September 2002 12:15 (twenty-one years ago) link

i don't have to explain visual art theory, dave: it has no consequences either way for what i'm suggesting

i want to root the problem about writing about music in things to do with music itself, not (for example) other kinds of sociology => yes pf course for some writers the quality of their writing is to do with their inability to write well, but i think there's a general issue with music — it may or may not obtain in other art forms, though plainly it DOESN'T in literature or movies, or anywhere where storytelling is front-central — where the urge to pin it down and the inability to pin it down are both intertwined, forming a fundamental nexus of appeal

mark s (mark s), Friday, 6 September 2002 12:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

sorry to interrupt the flow of recent posts, but i think toraneko has an interesting point. you could never make a tv show nowadays where being "alternative" centered around musical tastes. no more square pegs, but there's freaks and geeks. and in the one episode of that that i saw, it was interest in dungeons and dragons or role-playing games that made the characters geeks. so it's a different age group. teenage punks like in ghost world are old hat. so my answer isn't about music, but it's (trying to be) about the sociology part. and as i think pf suggested, the splintering that nabisco and others have mentioned has only worked against making music "dangerous". i predict that in the future it'll be cool to know arcane computer languages. i wish i hadn't donated my old mac to goodwill when i left stanford. but then if "cultural studies" is the part of the academy that's associated with the analysis of pop, then what'll it be for freaks and geeks?

youn, Friday, 6 September 2002 12:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

it looked like you were saying that the wordlessness of the medium produced specific logics of construction, hence the art thing.

urge to pin down what cannot be pinned down is the definition of appeal in itself - what is that new style i don't understand? i still don't see what this has to do with music specifically - is it the mode of consumption? (ie. sheer volume in our case, the fact that you can have music on at work whereas you cannot watch movies all day)?

Dave M. (rotten03), Friday, 6 September 2002 13:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

I thought we were really getting somewhere with the Watership Down bit.

Pop songs take three minutes to listen to and require no effort. I think this must have a bearing on their 'acceptance' in academic circles, which thrive on difficulty, so much so that they often invent difficulty where there is none.

I realise I am infringing FAQ no. 36 about the mind-body divide, but it's Friday afternoon.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 6 September 2002 13:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

you could never make a tv show nowadays where being "alternative" centered around musical tastes. [...] teenage punks like in ghost world are old hat.

Is this really true?
Does it matter that Freaks & Geeks is set in the 80s?

N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 7 September 2002 13:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

Whenever I see punks of the mohawk, safety pin and tartan variety I think "Humph! So 70's".

Well, actually, I have to remember to think that - but it's really funny when I do.

toraneko (toraneko), Saturday, 7 September 2002 13:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

Enid has no mohawk tho.

N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 7 September 2002 14:09 (twenty-one years ago) link


Freaks & Geeks = ??

the pinefox, Saturday, 7 September 2002 15:17 (twenty-one years ago) link

Pinefox, you aren't half being useless today. Do a google search, man. If you can't work out out how to do that and you really care then I'll tell you - it's a US highschool drama set in the 80s, about hey - freaks and geeks.

N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 7 September 2002 15:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

Oh! I saw one episode of Freaks And Geeks and didn't register that it was set in the '80s. This must be something to do with being very old, I expect, where I cannot instantly spot the difference between then and now - I'd have noticed had it been set in the '70s, I'm sure.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 7 September 2002 18:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

Part one:

The main point in Chapter One of Performing Rites: The essence of social practice is the making of value judgments. (Example: Ladonna in the letter pages of Metal Mania: "There is no way that Poison can EVER be on top. Them little underdeveloped chromoshoes don't got cock enough to fuck an ant. So all you fucking whores out there who praise the ground Poison walks on are in shit. METALLICA RULES and that will never change." Footnote: "Thanks to Frank Kogan for this quote.") But academia almost across the board refuses to raise questions about the value of what it studies. (The value and importance of what we study are assumed; otherwise we wouldn't be studying it.) Therefore, for sociologists and people in cultural studies, the explicit practice of their subject matter is forbidden in the classroom and in academic writing.

Comments by me: One reason for this proscription is that to practice the subject matter - that is, to make value judgments as you would as a music fan - means to make invidious social judgments about people. (By the way, The L.A. Times yesterday published as a fact [based on a year's worth of research, they said] the claim that Biggie paid for the murder of 2pac and supplied the gun and bullets himself, wanting the satisfaction of knowing that it was his bullet that killed 2pac. I just thought I'd bring that up.) The message in this proscription is that you can either live your lives or you can study a subject matter, but you can't do both at once. And the further message, to quote Frith (though it was from a different essay on a different topic), is that "everything real is happening elsewhere." In other words, the message that sociology sends to you, if you are a student, is that you are not as real or as important as what you are studying (or why would you be studying it?). But pop throws a monkey in the works by being something that you know how to practice well but whose value hasn't been established. Academia fends off the monkey (and the frug and the mashed potato and the boogaloo) by having the student not study pop but merely pop's importance. So maybe you can study it for its artistic merit and you can certainly study it for its social use and social effects, but you can't study it whole, any more than you can be whole when you study it. So sociology and cultural studies alienate you from your life and then engage you in endless methodological discussions about how to approach it.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 8 September 2002 00:50 (twenty-one years ago) link

Part two:

By capitalizing "Big Important things" the pinefox is very cleverly challenging their importance (that's how I interpret those capitals, anyway). Very good.

Richard Meltzer (who wrote most of the Aesthetics of Rock in academia, even if he and the Aesthetics were thrown out before it was published), 1972, from the introduction to Gulcher: "The structure [people have] been fed of late has tended towards the delineation of youth culture as meaning-laden and quality-oriented. This is indeed strange for a culture whose cutting edge has begun and ended with rock and roll, crucial for its collapse of such dichotomies as the trivial and the awesome, the relevant and the irrelevant, the interesting and the boring, the topical and the eternal, the polar and the continuous, the _____ and the _____."

Comments: Well, Meltzer's prose here is too contaminated by philosophy, and he's never thought through what he means by "meaning-laden" (I would guess it would be something like "socially important as my seventh-grade social studies teacher would define social importance"), and relevant/irrelevant et al. aren't dichotomies, just comparative judgments, hence aren't eligible for collapse, since in normal usage they're already as flexible, contingent, and ad hoc as need be. But let's say that - though this makes rock 'n' roll less extraordinary and world-important - ha! - than Meltzer made it seem - that rock music esp. c. 1964-1966 was a lot more fluid and less stable in its judgments of what counts as important and unimportant than academia was, so if I'm a sociologist back then, I'm going to want to run rock against sociology, to analyze sociology through the lens of rock rather than to analyze rock sociologically; or I might play the two off against each other, since by not sticking to standard "importance," rock forces the intellectual question that sociology has been afraid to bring up - the question of value, of what's important - and so rock in this regard is intellectually superior to sociology. (Meltzer'd written that "Rock is the only possible future for philosophy and art"; he later derided himself for his misplaced faith in rock. I'd add that he was far too generous to philosophy in believing that it deserved a future.)

Anyway, that's a short vague sketch of things, and it's probably not all that intelligible. I haven't been in academia in 25 years so I don't know the state of affairs. I'm waiting for Meltzer's honorary degree from Yale.

I don't think we're required to kowtow to the way pop mixes around and mixes up its sense of importance, or that instability in one's ideas is necessarily better than stability. But if we're not willing to test the stability and value of our practices by running them against counterpractices, then how can we do sociology? How else can we examine and test our social practices? So my question would be: can we use pop music - the way we engage in it - as a means of studying society (and sociology) rather than merely using sociology as a means of studying pop music? (But given that I like ILE more than ILM, we might want to start somewhere other than music.)

By the way, if you're subjected to massive propaganda all your life that tells you that you can either use your intellect or live your life but that you can't do both at once, this is going to affect how you behave as a musician and as a fan, what the music you make is going to sound like, what the music you like is going to sound like, how you judge and justify it.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 8 September 2002 01:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

One last point, about why value judgments are crucial to social practice. Here's a quote from the (Australian) Smash Hits penpal pages, 1988:

"Calling all gorgeous guys on Earth who are 14 or older. We are two 15 year old chicks who are absolutely in love with Guns N' Roses, Mötley Crüe, Bon Jovi, Poison, and stax more! Interested?"

Now there simply must be disagreement over the value of Guns N' Roses et al. For if everyone liked Guns N' Roses, this call would be worthless.

To say that value judgments are crucial to social practice is to say that disagreements are crucial to social practice. Of course, that would be so obvious as to be a platitude except that the social "sciences" tend to imagine that agreement will or should be the ultimate goal of the social-science discourse, that disagreements will eventually be resolved. Whereas in pop, agreement is not expected and is not the goal.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 8 September 2002 03:02 (twenty-one years ago) link


Mr Kogan: two strikingly strong points:

>>> relevant/irrelevant et al. aren't dichotomies, just comparative judgments, hence aren't eligible for collapse, since in normal usage they're already as flexible, contingent, and ad hoc as need be

and

>>> To say that value judgments are crucial to social practice is to say that disagreements are crucial to social practice

In many ways I strongly agree (!) with this last point - just as I agree with Tom E when he says we should talk about how we hate things as well as how we like them (cos 'taste' includes both). BUT I also have a suspicion that at some kind of Habermasian meta-level, Agreement really IS the goal of human discourse - odd as it may sound in this pop context.

The idea that pop = instability, and we should run sociology etc vs it, seems to me to take too much for granted. (For instance, pop for me = stability, maybe; whereas a serious engagement with sociological tradition might, for me, be demanding and relatively destabilizing.) Admirably, you make this point yourself (I think.)

I tend to agree that the question of value is at the heart of all this - and that there is sth irresolvable and irreducible about it. "We (we?) are never really going to agree about pop music" - a discourse on value probably needs to take that statement into account.

But another question: is there sth specific about Education / the Research that accompanies it which differentiates it from eg what Tom E does? I disagree with a lot of what Tom E actually says, but he seems to have found the right genre for saying it - and we don't find ourselves arguing about fact & value in relation to it (do we?).

the pinefox, Sunday, 8 September 2002 09:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

Agreement really IS the goal of human discourse

But, perhaps more in this context than most any other, that agreement with a peer group (largely self-defined) is vital only in that it also defines a disagreement with others. I have no better examples to offer than Frank's metal bands one, but almost any coherent selection, whether of house DJ, rappers or rock acts, serves similar purposes. The kind of list many ILE posters might offer (I might mention Al Green, Pulp, Daphne & Celeste and Louis Prima, for instance) is a less clear example, but I think we are doing the same thing, except instead of a particular genre we are declaring our open-mindedness, breadth of knowledge and eclecticism - and maybe implicitly distancing ourselves from those who like one genre to the exclusion of others. The ILE usage of the term 'rockist' (see FAQ, or probably not yet) is maybe one example of this.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 8 September 2002 09:23 (twenty-one years ago) link


>>> we are declaring our open-mindedness, breadth of knowledge and eclecticism - and maybe implicitly distancing ourselves from those who like one genre to the exclusion of others.

Oh No! Years of declaring my narrow-mindedness, intolerance and simmering hatred of great swathes of music that other people love - only to be misrepresented in this way! Oh NO! [Sob]

the pinefox, Sunday, 8 September 2002 09:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

Yes, there are counterexamples - and we demonstrate our open-mindedness by tolerating the occasional dance and hip hop hata such as you, The Pinefox.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 8 September 2002 09:45 (twenty-one years ago) link


Redhead's book turns out to be worse than flicking through it indicated (and I was never totally optimistic). Apart from being pretty badly written, and offering no coherent case, it falls into the fact/value conflation I have mentioned. ie: he says 'As a matter of fact, the most interesting things in the 1980s have been NOT xyz but the diverse, postmodern post-political likes of...' - and these grate things are eg: BAD, Public Enemy, Tackhead, On-U Sound, NWA, Bomb The Bass, Neneh Cherry, blah blah. ie: a load of old bollox. And anyone who thinks it's a load of old bollox is not going to be swayed by his quasi-theoretical case for it.

the pinefox, Sunday, 8 September 2002 11:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

Public Enemy were post-political? Has anyone explained that to Chuck D?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 8 September 2002 11:24 (twenty-one years ago) link

"What Tom E does" = sits around listening to music sometimes, writing about it rather less and (unforgivably) not answering his email. I'm not sure how this relates to sociology or pop or anything much else PF!

Tom (Groke), Sunday, 8 September 2002 20:05 (twenty-one years ago) link

the last time i interrupted, i think i meant to post to the pinefox's other thread on soufflés: my thinking is so confused, no one noticed anyway. (even if the threads are remotely related, that's no excuse!) anyways...

mark s said, "music *itself* is anti-systemic by virtue of having evolved wordless logics of construction..."

josh said, "there are certain facts about music in general (sort of metaphysical/ontological ones?) and pop music in particular (as opposed to say art music/classical; sociological, economic, etc. etc. facts) that make that importance of being a listener possible in ways that are distinct from literature, film, etc..."

well, film, literature, and art are representational in a way that music is not. even with abstract things, it seems like you have to struggle not to interpret them literally or derive their meaning by comparing them to things in the world. with music it's not like that: there's no correspondence, or only ones that the listener makes up. you have to struggle to pin things down. so it seems interpretation, i.e., the role of the audience, would be more important with music.

mark s, on another thread, said, "pile of books = taller and more stable than pile of all music formats i have so far encountered" and i think this comment is related to what he has said here.

at first, i resisted taking lit courses with books that i liked on the reading list. with music, i think it would be worse.

sociology = guaranteed to deflate soufflés

youn, Monday, 9 September 2002 03:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

I like your points, Martin, and I'm glad you put "rockist" in inverted commas, because I stongly dislike the term "rockist": it's a gimmick by which "anti-rockists" cherry-pick among various attitudes and judgments they run into in their reading to construct a straw-man other - the "rockist" - whose ideas are made up exclusively of what the anti-rockist knows how to argue against ("hey, the teacher patted me on the head when I used this argument against Plato and Pollock; I'll use it now against Clapton and get a gold star for it"). So the term becomes a tool by which the anti-rockist characterizes a supposed opponent without learning anything about (or from) the people he'd drawn on to create this illusory construction. Of course, I'm doing the same thing right now with the term "anti-rockist." The thing is, use of the terms "rockist" and "rockism" are just plain lazy. And boring too. No poetic resonance. The least we could do is make up new terms for our supposed opponents. We could call the Rockists the Modests, for instance (in reference to the Rockisters old brawling partners the Modestos), and call ourselves the Arrogants in opposition. Then at least, people would KNOW that they didn't know what the fuck we were talking about, so we'd have to explain ourselves, hence do some actual thinking.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 15 September 2002 23:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

I don't strongly dislike the term "music," but it's a lot more problematic and a lot less universal than the people on this thread have been assuming. For instance, some African languages had no word for "music" until Europeans colonized the continent. (I once looked "music" up in an English-Swahili dictionary and discovered that the Swahili word for "music" was "musik," or something like that.) So the Africans weren't conceptually separating out the musical and visual elements of a ritual from each other. And I think they may well have been right - that "music" as a reasonably separate component/endeavor may only make sense in a very narrow art-music tradition, and may be vestigial in relation to pop and rock and hip-hop. Of course, this depends on the distinctions that we make with the word. (E.g., music stations vs. all-talk radio; but the music stations have a lot of talk. So does hip-hop.) Since CDs are still an important commodity, "music" may hold on for a while, but maybe in the sense that a guitarist needs an amplifier to provide some noise, and a DJ therefore needs some music to provide some noise, but not as the general name of an art form. Like, you don't go to the movies to see one art form (moving pictures) that is attended by yet another (dialogue, conversation, sound effects), with a third in the background. You just go to the movies. Or "music" hangs on as the name of an art form (just as "film" and "movies" hang on, despite actual film stock going on its way to oblivion and "movies" being much more than something that moves; just as "records" hung on as the name for vinyl sound commodities, long after most of them had stopped recording a particular sound event), without the form itself being all that "musical."

This is my long way of saying that I don't think that there are facts about music in general. There may be facts about "pop" in general, just as there could be facts about "physics" in general or "France" in general; which is to say that (vaguely) "pop" is a form or discourse or something without being a subset of "music."

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 16 September 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

Oh, in referring to the alleged "third" art form in the background at movies, I meant "music."

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 16 September 2002 00:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

And the Africans may not have been separating out the musical from the speech elements in a ritual, and again this may have been right (some African languages are tonal). I don't mean to imply by these posts that I know much about African music.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 16 September 2002 00:05 (twenty-one years ago) link

Then the greatest achievement in "pop" "music" is the Cantonese language, or maybe Mandarin (a billion people can't be wrong). At least this gives me a way to hate Chinese opera without being modestly arrogant - sorry, that should be arrogantly modest.

But I think that distinguishing music as something perceived as more tonal than everyday speech is still useful, even if four or five words in this sentence need to be more clearly defined. The fact that this means music overlaps with a bunch of other art forms, as well as cultural categorisations, doesn't worry me. "Pop" and "music" can have an intersection, so although they cover very different territory, they can still have a shared subset of "pop music". More importantly, "pop music" then necessarily has interacting cultural and artistic components. If you think this way, it's harder to ignore "pop" at the expense of "music" or vice-versa.

So if you want to talk about "pop", talk about pop, and if you want to talk about "music", talk about music - I'm fascinated by both these subjects. But if you want to talk about "pop music", bring that interaction.

B:Rad (Brad), Monday, 16 September 2002 02:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

(frank uses the word "rockist" differently from me, and i think he's kinda invented what he believes it's ususally used to mean, so that its usage can characterise a supposed opponent...)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 16 September 2002 07:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

(MS in Langwidge Police shocka! Actually, I agree with Frank. Rockist is such a dreary term. And it's reproducing the cultural logic it claims to overturn. Like all liberationist ideologies it simply reverses a perceived dichotomy rather than rendering it obsolete; we are condemned to ride on the see-saw of essence for evah, coming down with an arsequaking bump... Aren't there other rides in the playground of rhetoric? Modern music is an audio galaxy of glittering fragments: reviving old popist/rockist dualisms seems every bit as quaint as nostalgia for the Berlin Wall.)

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 16 September 2002 09:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

"Like all liberationist ideologies it simply reverses a perceived dichotomy rather than rendering it obsolete" => i realise it's my fault for not intervening in this aergument earlier, but frank and jerry are INVENTING a use of rockist in order to attack it!! yes indeed the use they are inventing would be dreary and self-satisfied and pointless, but since this is NOT what the word means or how it is used, they are expending a great deal of intelligence on a convenient chimera

clue: the word "popist" is completely unnecessary, since any meaning it has is perfectly well covered by the word "rockist"
clue two: sex: sexist <=> rock: rockist DO YOU SEE??!!

"reviving old popist/rockist dualisms" = meaningless phrase historically AND aesthetically

ok but mea culpa: i'm gunna get the 96 THESES done this week if i can, since frank's strength of expression will otherwise totally distort the field of argument

if people don't like the word "rockist" used in the sense i'm using it it's THEIR JOB to find a better one: so far only ArfArf has been down this road (he said rockism = romanticism: i don't really buy this, but the effort was appreciated, thankyou ArfArf)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 16 September 2002 09:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

has the Pinefox ever liked a rap or dance music song?

chris (chris), Monday, 16 September 2002 09:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

No.

Unfortunately this may well be on principle.

Pete (Pete), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

Inventing a usage in order to attack it? Why would anyone do that? If we have misinterpreted something, then maybe it's YOUR JOB to be clearer (or clear enough for my dopey Monday morning brane, at least). I think Frank and I, for different reasons, grew impatient with the use of 'rockism' as a stick to beat arguments they disagreed with. So my understanding is a response to common usage (maybe Mark has a special real definition which he keeps in a bunker with his uranium clock). Part of the reason I've grown impatient with the argument is that it reminds me a bit of the late 80s Marxism Today, when the groovy new post-marxists would belittle leftists for being unreconstructed. Many of the arguments needed to be made, but the manner smacked of gracelessness, superciliousness and kneejerk thought (and where did many of the MT-ers end up?)

I don't think the popist/rockist dualism is meaningless, Mark (and I think your response is a bit patronising DO YOU SEE?). For example: the early 80s NME new-pop disputes about Dollar etc. And then the mid-80s MM revalorisation of rock as a site of differance. Both of these encounters contrasted depth models of meaning and history with pleasures of texture, surface and presence: pop and rock as philosophical categories. In my dopey old way, I think of them as popist/rockist debates.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:15 (twenty-one years ago) link

The main problem with the whole argument is that the word is used a great deal less than any of the people who object to it seem to think. It's become the 'Politically Incorrect' of the ILX world, mostly used in the construction: "I know you'll call me a rockist but hey I like the Stones!" i.e. to lend a bit of baiting to an unexceptional opinion.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

sorry for being grumpy but i object to being swept in a "dismiss the dreary morons" way by people who haven't actually read anything i've written about this: my uranium bunker = several kazillion posts on ILM on this topic already, hence possibly my testiness when ppl say "please be clearer"

please state what you find unclear abt what i have already said about this (clue: use SEARCH at bottom of page) (pinefox: ask someone to do this for you) and i will then perhaps be able to be clearer

i suspect that i consider the 90s MM usage to exhibit some of the failings suggested (i never read it, so i'm not a good judge there): the 80s NME new-pop disputes weren't dualist => excactly the opposite (hence my annoyance at a word coined as a crit/collapse of dualism being co-opted by people who dislike dualism to beat dualists abt the head)

as far as i'm concerned, rockism is required as what frank wd call a "superword", because its contestation — ps have i made up *word* — is key to the aufhebung blah blah

mark s (mark s), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

jerry i bet i am older than you

mark s (mark s), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

(JtN= Edna W/Ghastly Fop/Stevie t regenerated and now played by William Hartnell [hence grouchiness] btw, so yes you are older :)).

Actually, debates are like this are why I get frustrated with ILx and go away for long periods - you can't respond to non-verbal cues/tone of voice (esp if you are writing hurriedly at work, and your tone comes out wrong - 'dreary', with it's langourous disdain was the wrong word, in retrospect) and so things get too heated too rapidly and everyone shouts BUNDLE. And someone gets buried at the bottom of a pile.

I disagree with Tom about the politically incorrect thing. Rockist has become a kind of ILx "superword" (Superword sounds like what Barthes called a "manna word", I think) and it seems to embody lots of things I disagree about with the FT pro-pop contingent (ie see last week's comment box debate on the charts). Maybe I should just write an article about it.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

I have actually done some research on my use of the word 'rockist' cause I think there's a perception that a faction on ILM sling it around willy-nilly. I think I used it twice on FT before NYLPM started, once in scare quotes (just as well cos I was using it wrongly), one in a jokey article. On NYLPM I used it once about attitudes the music scene at the turn-of-the-80s and once to refer to attitudes I was trying to avoid in my own writing (I presumed too much methinks). Robin used it a lot more.

The first thread about rockism on Greenspun was started by somebody (Patrick, wherever he is) saying I dont understand what it is, with the perception that we were using it all the time. That was also the first thread mark s ever posted to! By the time Lord Custos' thread about it ("The Scourge Of Rockism") rolled round there was a perception/assertion that it was mostly used jokily anyway. The "Rockism" thread on ILE shows the various types of use pretty well - frivolous batting around of the word as an in-joke, bafflement, vaguely serious definitions, aggreived and defensive interventions and responses to same.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

But crucially Jerry the r-word was as far as I can remember never used in that charts debate!

Tom (Groke), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

oh hi jerry!! heh, hard on the net or what!!

tom you also called nate the "acceptable face of rockism"!!

mark s (mark s), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

Just re-read it. There is a spectrum of attitudes there to the charts, some of which may or may not correlate with 'rockism' (but I think it's a separate thing):

1. The charts are complete rubbish always and even paying attention to them is idiotic.
2. The charts are bad and have been spoiled by marketing.
3. The charts are neither a good or bad thing; pop is good but the charts at the moment might not be/are not.
4. The charts are pretty much the same as they always have been and are a good thing as a reflection of public taste regardless of what you might think of the records.
5. The charts are great right now!
6. The charts are great right now and pop is a mystical and beautiful force which animates them and which some individuals can understand more than others.

Mark - yeah I did but that's after it had been established as a disputed joke-word super-word thing on the boards so I was ignoring any subsequent uses of it.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 16 September 2002 10:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

(It's not so much the word, as a kind of FTetc aesthetic which I think of R-ism as shorthand for - I was looking at the old Death of Pop thread yesterday and I felt a bit sorry for poor old Glenn McDonald! It was like Gulliver being captured by the Liliputians! This was why I was curious about the other parts of the Death of Pop article. I think of myself as pro-pop as anyone, but I think this year has been lousy for chartpop [I don't even really like 'Freak Like Me' - I think giving it to the S-babes was poor casting, like putting Judy Garland in 'Sunset Blvd'{and there wasnt even a frisson from the bad casting} {actually, if they coulda got it, it might have saved the Appletons career!}. And so my perspective on the 5 years of nu-pop was that it was a seasonal thing, a bit like that mid-80s moment when everything Jam and Lewis touched turned to gold - certain producers and playas (in the recent case, Timbaland, Cheiron, etc)hit form, and everyone raises their game as a result. But now I think the fields are pretty fallow. So I'm a fairweather popist. Whereas I think the FT/Sinkah position has more of an ideological commitment to Pop/The Charts. Am I wrong?)

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 16 September 2002 11:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

i have an ideological commitment to everything

mark s (mark s), Monday, 16 September 2002 11:14 (twenty-one years ago) link

I love everything!!!

Pete (Pete), Monday, 16 September 2002 11:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

i think of the charts as a broadcast technology: being for them or against the is like being for or against radio

i also tht last week's chart was GREBT — i listened to it v.loud while driving back from shropshire to london — tho this year's have been v.sluggish, yes: the 4-fold effect i was arguing for in that glenn macdonald thread HAS EMERGED but interestingly enough — i'm not surprised at this, actually, but i didn't expect it — hasn't yet been exploited much by the PopIdols uber-lizards => tho in a sense the Appletons were always already PopIdol-zoners

i never properly explored or expanded it, even when frank tried to make me: KymMarshinMarkSinkahland was going to be part of it but i got derailed on that (when is her fkn solo LP?)

btw edna the tolkien piece is "finished" (pending complete rewrite): wd u like to see it in first-draft form?

mark s (mark s), Monday, 16 September 2002 11:27 (twenty-one years ago) link

I think both actually Jerry - I think nu-pop was a moment and the moment has somewhat passed and I think that the pop getting into the charts currently is really really good (did you see my MOBO's entry on NYLPM for my thoughts as to why - i.e. garage's success making it commercially- and street-credible for British kids to make terrific pop records again). But then I did really really like Freak W/Me.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 16 September 2002 12:18 (twenty-one years ago) link


>>> that mid-80s moment when everything [...] Lewis touched turned to gold

It's true - 'The Power Of Love', 'Back In Time', 'Stuck With You', 'The Heart Of Rock'n'Roll'...

the pinefox (the pinefox), Tuesday, 17 September 2002 10:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

one month passes...
Mark - “Rockist” is not a Superword. That’s because no one aspires to be rockist of berates himself or others for being insufficiently rockist, and no one keeps raising the bar on himself to make “rockist” an unattainable ideal. Also, “rockist” is too boring.

Brief sketch of what I mean by Superword: A Superword is a word like "punk," which is, among other things, a battleground, a weapon, a red cape, a prize, a flag in a bloody game of Capture the Flag. To put this in the abstract, a Superword is a word or phrase that not only is used in fights but that is itself fought over. The fight is over who gets to wear the word proudly, who gets the word affixed to himself against his will, etc. So the *use* is fought over, and this - the fight over usage - is a big part of the word's use. That is, we use the term in order to engage in arguments over how to use the term. Meta use is use!

So a Superword is a controversy word, and so far “rockist” would qualify, at least as a controversy word, except that it hasn’t surmounted the threshold into nonboringness. But what makes a Superword really super is that some people use the word so that it will jettison adherents and go skipping on ahead of any possible embodiment. Like, no one and nothing is good enough to bear the word "punk," and I wouldn't join a band that would have someone like me as a member anyway. (Supposedly, in the late ’80s I once claimed that Michael Jackson and Axl Rose were the only two punks going at the time.) So “rock,” “pop,” “punk,” and many other genre names sometimes act as Superwords, but “rockist” doesn’t.

If we must have a term for whatever it is that "rockist" is supposed to represent, I'd prefer some other words, since I'd want words that reference our own (often admirable) tendencies towards the meaning-laden and the quality-oriented, not merely the other guy's. Also, I'd want words that rock.

I’m sad that the most interesting part of this thread petered out (particularly that there was little discussion of my and the pinefox’s ideas, of the potential of sociology to analyze pop and the potential of pop to analyze sociology), though that’s partially my fault, since I didn’t get back to it. In any event, let’s make this argument: Whether you want it to or not, your liking or disliking something – e.g., a song – involves making a social commitment, at least if the like or dislike becomes known to others. Even if the like-dislike remains in the privacy of your own mind, that mind still lives in a social world. Sociology (as I barely knew it and hardly remember it) intellectually cripples itself by forbidding the question of whether something is good or not. If you want to engage in social commitments, you’re supposed to do it somewhere else than in sociology (and you’re not supposed to acknowledge that when doing sociology you’re making social commitments yourself). I assume that sociologists have raised the issue of sociology’s political commitments, but I’m thinking more or its mundane and everyday social commitments: like, does the writer of a work in sociology come across as a sk8ter? a prep? a dweeb? a rockist? a pussy? Does his writing swing? Does it rock? If so, what are the consequences for him?

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 26 October 2002 20:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

That's "no one aspires to be rockist or berates himself or others for being insufficiently rockist."

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 26 October 2002 20:27 (twenty-one years ago) link

seven months pass...
Happened upon this thread because I just started reading Performing Rites and feel similarly to Mark S -- i.e., that Frith's thesis a brilliant idea that isn't quite pulled off (I found myself continually nodding along in Chapter 1, and then disoriented for the next 100 pages.)

But what compelled me to seek out that book in the first place was that I've been thinking about how popular music is generally neglected in the academy -- apart from the now-cliche, ideology-driven, cultural-studes investigations into things like "the image of Elvis." And as Josh suggested upthread, I do think there are substantial reasons for why music is treated differently from popular film/literature/art.

I think a lot of what it comes down to is this: Popular film/lit/art were accepted as valid fields of study once they could be considered properly "intellectual" -- the notion of the "auteur theory," for example, totally jump-started film studies. But it is much more difficult to see pop music as "intellectual."

Viz:

1. Unlike novelists and visual artists, who study the history of their discipline as a matter of course, popular musicians themselves are not seen as intellectuals participating in an unique discourse. (e.g., Beck is not reviewing Bjork in the NY Review of Books.)

2. There is a relative absence of legitimizing institutions (like the gallery complex) or gatekeepers (respected novelist-critics) to isolate significant works for study. (This is partly why writing about the Wonder Stuff, in the Pinefox's example, seems trivial: among all the music ever recorded, that band seems arbitrary to spotlight.)

3. While the lines between popular and high-culture art and literature are quite blurry (cf. the Jonathan Franzen debacle), thus giving more leeway for popular works to sneak into syllabi, they are much more stark with respect to music (composition or bust) -- and thus easier to justify pop music's exclusion.

4. Compared to literary and artistic "themes," the focus of much academic inquiry, it is not always obvious what popular music is "about" (it is often more functional).

I realize that some of these might be symptoms rather than causes. It's hard to say. But I'm curious to know if any of these thoughts make sense. Please pick 'em apart!

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 3 June 2003 16:12 (twenty years ago) link


OK.

>>> Unlike novelists and visual artists, who study the history of their discipline as a matter of course, popular musicians themselves are not seen as intellectuals participating in an unique discourse. (e.g., Beck is not reviewing Bjork in the NY Review of Books.)

That's a good point, but they do TALK about each other all the time. So, I suppose, do footballers. I guess different levels of discursive elaborateness are involved.

>>> 2. There is a relative absence of legitimizing institutions (like the gallery complex) or gatekeepers (respected novelist-critics) to isolate significant works for study. (This is partly why writing about the Wonder Stuff, in the Pinefox's example, seems trivial: among all the music ever recorded, that band seems arbitrary to spotlight.)

But who legitimates a legitimating institution? The distinction between galleries and rock venues, or art magazines and pop ones, itself seems 'arbitrary' to me. (But we may be able to agree that 'The fact that the divide is a construct doesn't make it less real'.)

I'm not sure why it would be esp. 'arbitrary' to write about the Wonder Stuff. If you take pop 'seriously' (a dubious, un-Morleyesque word), then you might be interested in the Wonder Stuff - or violently uninterested.

>>> 3. While the lines between popular and high-culture art and literature are quite blurry (cf. the Jonathan Franzen debacle), thus giving more leeway for popular works to sneak into syllabi, they are much more stark with respect to music (composition or bust) -- and thus easier to justify pop music's exclusion.

I think that's true. But I would have thought that the last couple of generations of pop institutionalization - Sir McCartney, Dylan And The Poets, etc - have changed that. Or more generally, the post-Q / CD idea of the Back Catalogue. (Perhaps this is standard Rockism.)

>>> 4. Compared to literary and artistic "themes," the focus of much academic inquiry, it is not always obvious what popular music is "about" (it is often more functional).

Really? I think it's usually much clearer what pop music is about than what abstract painting is about.

I suppose that novels - White Noise, Lolita, The Trial - are about things. But they are usually about more things than pop songs (watering cans, sprinklers, queues): so it is less clear what they are 'finally', or 'ultimately', about.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 June 2003 12:05 (twenty years ago) link

Wow: I have just reread this thread: so many various and interesting things happen on it.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 June 2003 12:18 (twenty years ago) link

i had my first bad-tempered argument with argument with JtN!! :(

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 12:43 (twenty years ago) link

three years pass...
Sociology as I know it stopped 'aspiring to be a science' in the 50s.

http://oregonstate.edu/~scarbost/huh/oops.gif

and what, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Sociology as I know it stopped 'aspiring to be a science' in the 50s. Outposts of naive positivism do remain (primarily American undergraduate textbooks, in my experience). And c'mon, the discipline boasts no greater proportion of badly written or ill-reasoned work than any other. The world's full of crap reasoning and bad writing. I could provide a list of sociological work *full* of a sense of the 'how and why' of its subject matter, which you could all rigorously ignore in favour of a 2-dimensional caricature of the discipline. (It would probably start with MArx and Engels, except that their aspirations to scientific status would be embarrassing).

Ellie (Ellie) on Friday, 6 September 2002 06:30 (4 years ago)


but it was a quasi-scientific marxism that launched the major attack on 'naive positivism' in the first place...

That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:57 (seventeen years ago) link

I opened this thread expecting to be embarrassed by my post from four years ago, but I'm still interested in some of the things I said.

jaymc, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:02 (seventeen years ago) link

derrida was an anti-positivist not because he thought it was faulty but because he thought it would lead to fascism!

and what, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:08 (seventeen years ago) link


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