Scottish Independence - classic or dud

god, remember when nationalism was awful and only a Tory would want to secede from the UK? crazy times

Scotland wanting to stay with a broader group of broadly enlightened neighbouring countries is not traditional 'nationalism', though

What are the maps on either side?

Remain % and Leave % - the darker the colour the higher the percentage.

Scotland's first minister has said a second independence referendum is "highly likely" after the UK voted to leave the EU.

Nicola Sturgeon said it was "democratically unacceptable" that Scotland faced the prospect of being taken out of the EU against its will.

She said the Scottish government would begin preparing legislation to enable another independence vote.

Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38%.

The UK as a whole has voted to Leave, prompting David Cameron to announce he would stand down as prime minister by October.

At a news conference at Bute House, Ms Sturgeon said the Scottish cabinet would meet on Saturday to discuss its next steps.

Nicola Sturgeon said it was "democratically unacceptable" that Scotland faced the prospect of being taken out of the EU against its will.

Nicola Sturgeon has a valid point. Why go down with the ship when you can take a few steps and get back onto relatively solid ground?

bump

^

we need to be independent because we're better together in the eu iirc

hope the independence brigade has the guts to use "better together" as their slogan

that would be amazing

HA

I am so done with this happening again already.

How amenable would the rest of the EU be to admitting Scotland? I would guess that Spain would veto pretty much anything and an independent Scotland stuck outside the EU is surely a disaster waiting to happen.

Inside the EU is an entirely different prospect obviously. Why go through the hassle of moving your headquarters from London to Frankfurt or Berlin when you can move it to Edinburgh or Glasgow and actually retain a lot of your staff.

it would be so righteous if it worked which is reason enough to think it never will

spain's horror of separatist condonation surely lessened somewhat by the prospect of brexit recalibration - at least they could pretend it created an entirely different situation. if you subscribe to the idea that the eu is keen to punish the uk and as a signal to any future waverers then they might consider rolling out a red carpet or implying that that could happen for a scotland so keen to remain in the eu that it would be willing to leave the uk with which it so recently renewed its vows

Voted no last time, would vote yes this time. I kind of hope the referendum options are switched this time, so as to bother all the folks who still have 'yes' posters/buttons etc.

Would vote "yes" if everything was switched so it was the same as a "no" last time?

No, I would vote for independence this time. Which would be no if switched. See, isn't this fun?

My wife was born and grew up in Scotland (with English parents) and has gone full circle from pro-union to heavily pro-independence since June. I suspect the Yes campaign would win comfortably this time around barring some extremely tough talking from the EU.

Idly wondering if I could pick up some kind of spousal EU passport if I don't live in Scotland and have minimal intention of doing so.

See, isn't this fun?

Voted no last time, would vote yes this time.

same, assuming that we could stay in / rejoin the eu

Legitimately considering the logistics of temporarily moving back home to vote yes next time. I still don't reckon independence will win though,polling doesnt suggest that brexit has precipitated a shift

Brexit and its affects haven't even started yet. Once Brexit has happened it might change if yes can make better arguments than last time.

Also Labour are unlikely to be 10 points ahead in the polls if indyref2 does happen.

I spoiled my ballot at the referendum because I couldn't vote in favour of independence and I couldn't bring myself to show any complicity with the current government. But I think were it to happen tomorrow I would vote against independence.

I think the SNP are doing so well by virtue of mere competence. The popularity of Corbyn shows that there is a mass appeal for left-leaning politics but Labour simply seem unable to get themselves together enough to do something - anything - that speaks to the people of Scotland. So it's been remarkably easy for Sturgeon to make the right noises without having to jostle against anyone - and the right noises in the current political climate are so alarmingly basic, all the SNP has to do is show themselves to not be a party for frothing racists and rich tax evaders and they're riding a wave of popularity. And the SNP has done some great work recently - what they've done for LGBT education in schools as well as care leavers has been really welcome. But a lot of it is emotional open goals. Mhairi Black might have chapped every door in Paisley and shown that you can be a young woman in a old man's world, but every time I see her speeches shared on Facebook I can predict exactly where they are going, and "look after old people" isn't exactly a politcally risky rhetoric.

What the SNP have done - brilliantly - at Westminster is withhold support on a lot of key issues that affect not just Scotland but the UK. I think that's such a vital thing. Without the SNP using their position to make life difficult for the Tories I think things could be a lot worse, not just for Scotland. The popularity of the party south of the border speaks to that too. I don't think it's right that we turn our backs on the people down south who are getting fucked over by a Government determined to strip them of all opportunity and security just because of an arbitrary line in the map. Social solidarity doesn't end at Gretna Green. The Yes campaign will argue that they want to build a better and fairer society - but who is that fairer for, exactly?

The other problem I have with the Yes campaign is that it wants to be all things to all people. When I was leaning towards Yes, I still had concerns and questions because, like most things, the issues aren't simply black or white. But when you dare criticise Yes or ask questions, you're portrayed as a snarling traitor to the cause. But the questions are still legitmate: how can we have a fair society when someone like Brian Soutar is pumping in all the financial support? How can we have Green policies if we're planning to make our money through oil?

And this isn't just in my little worldview of the ~100~ people on Facebook who discuss these things and the people I work/socialise with, it's everywhere. I know comment boxes and Twitter brings out the worst in everyone but I felt like in the original referendum something was very different (that's on both sides, of course). Every time BBC Scotland shares a story about a political development there's those little boxes trying to make people like me feel disgusting and abhorrent. Regardless of intent, that's what nationalism does: it divides into Us And Them. And I simply don't think denying people the wonderful things we have, we can do, simply because they aren't one of Us, is fair. UK Nationalism has become very ugly very quickly since Brexit. It scares me.

also something that has always stuck with me is that in this thread (or maybe another one) paolo posted about the actual voting figures and burst open the myth that Scotland is completely against the Tories: their percentage of seats may be low but their vote share is higher than that suggests and I think it's dangerously complacent to equate a Yes victory with a Tory wipeout.

booming posts - totally agree

The SNP is not especially popular South of the Border, in fact I think they're fundamentally mistrusted and Salmond himself comes across as fundamentally shifty. Sturgeon herself is pretty well respected though but the SNP have a uniquely easy time of it as far as current political parties go.

xxxp great post. I voted yes but with reservations last time, briefly became a hardcore yes supporter after the EU referendum and now I'm back to being a yes supporter with reservations. It'd be nice if there was some kind of arrangement that would allow Scotland to stay in the EU and the UK

Their popularity down south is hard to gauge north of the border. The Yes campaign will be quick to tell you that the BBC is biased far beyond reasonable fairness on the issue of indyref, and while it's indisputable that they dropped the ball on eg coverage of protests and rallies in Scotland (by giving them none) the problem is now that any time the BBC gives them any kind of criticism - in line with the criticism any other party would get - social media is quick to claim bias. This also assumes that people get their news from only one source and that they are too stupid to critically engage with their sources, which I don't believe is true. STV meanwhile might as well admit the S stands for Sturgeon.

The personal problem I have with the whole thing is that literally every single person I know is in favour of independence. So it's hard to measure that perspectice bias against the real world.

the visceral dislike of salmond in certain (perhaps mainly southern) English quarters that have no particular qualm with sturgeon is v mysterious to me

Salmond is very dislikeable person. No matter where you live. Where did this idea that SNP have any sort of popularity in England come from?

around the time of the last election I remember lots of left-liberal guardianista types in England saying they wished they could vote for the SNP or that England had an SNP style party, I don't think they're very representative though. mixture of resentment + grudging respect probably more typical.

worst manifestation of SNP "popularity" this side of the border has to be anti-Corbyn Labour types arguing for a "progressive English nationalism"

Sturgeon did well in the TV debates and gave the impression of a step away from Salmond's type of grandstanding populism. Also Sturgeon managed to give the impression that she actually gives a shit what happens to people south of Berwick.

I'll repeat my accusation that salmond stole a handful of chips from me in the 90s - without asking! Then when he found out we were seventeen so couldn't vote he fucked off. I do, however, love sturgeon. Maybe the most capable politican in the country. But I don't kid myself that her policies are the result of ideological commitment - they're stances assumed for another goal. If Scotland was fascist she would be criticisizing England for not letting Scotland deport foreigners.

I've heard some big ifs in my time but that one takes the prize.

ffs dowd

There is a difference between "no Trident on our doorstep" and "no Trident ever." There is a difference between "free school meals for all" and "free school meals for those who need them." Both policies strike me as populist moves rather than commitment to the ideas implied by their surface-level gestures.

I think dowd is just using an extreme example to make the point: SNP policy often seems to exist simply to counter the status quo.

when the status quo is so repellent i'm not sure that's much of a problem

Xp What's the point of making that example though if It's nonsense. I don't understand the point you are making with regard to the trident dichotomy. Nor the other one either. Nor do I understand that you are praising actions of the SNP in affecting certain policies - the key thing Is that their influence is extremely limited in Westminster - the times where scots can make a prioity of solidarity with friends in england are long gone in the face of where we are now and where we will end up, which will be much worse. it makes no sense to call the Anglo Scottish border "arbitrary" - the thing about borders is that they are aren't arbitrary (unless they're running though deserts and connecting two contested points and the EU referendum polling result %s around that border to see that the line is anything but arbitrary.

Show that that line is*

I mean, the fact that every single area north of that line voted to remain belies your claim that the border is an arbitrary line.

Well, I didn't think it was controversial. What's important to the SNP is Scotland's will, and that Scotland's will is being overruled. The content of that will isn't important.

It's hard to see how a left wing SNP would function in a right wing Scotland.

the fact that every single area north of that line voted to remain belies your claim that the border is an arbitrary line.

I don't follow that - borders have an effect, they don't just exist. the drawing and redrawing of every one of them is arbitrary but having been drawn of course they can seem to make some sort of sense and become self-reinforcing.

If the SNP were committed to a resolve against nuclear weaponry then they could do more than say "not on our doorstep." They can reap the benefits of the populist move but it doesn't translate into their pro-NATO membership stance which has been in place since 2012. Similarly, if the SNP were serious about raising people out of poverty then they would be offering free school meals to the most disadvantaged. Free school meals to everyone is a vote-winner, but it doesn't actually redress the imbalance caused by the root issue.

the times where scots can make a prioity of solidarity with friends in england are long gone in the face of where we are now and where we will end up, which will be much worse

I don't believe this is a one way direction, or at least I don't believe it has to be. We may have a limited voice in Westminster but we can do more by being there and speaking out as a voice for 60 million than we do speaking out for 6 million. I can understand and appreciate that self-interest is a good reason to support independence but I don't feel comfortable with the moral stance that we do more by turning our backs on our neighbours rather than helping them. The response to that is obvious - they voted for it so they can deal with the consequence - but it's not like the people who need the support (eg the disabled people being told they aren't too sick to work) are actively voting for the policies that ruin their lives and I'd rather be able to work towards helping those people than insulating our own culture.

We managed to elect a UKIP representative despite the complete lack of party presence here. I wouldn't be confident saying we're as different as we seem.

(my own political awakening was embarassingly late so if someone could explain how the SNP managed to shake off the Tartan Tories label in the Salmond era that would be interesting)

it's been a while I think tartan tories was before thatcher the poll tax tory toxicity in scotland thus the imperative of rhetorical distance then devolution new labour providing them with a ready-made space to fill and their taking the opportunity

Nobody under 50 says tartan tories