Occupy Wall Street 3: Now What?

i admit a lot of my anger is at the black bloc folks who make it so damned easy for the media to ignore the substance of the marches and focus on "chaos," "scuffles," etc. there's got to me a way to make those kids go away.

damn black bloc kids

amateurist your anger is more appropriately directed at the media and it seriously enrages me that you can't seem to wrap your fucking head around that relatively simple equation.

i don't know if you were disagreeing or agreeing with me there, but yeah the weathermen were bullshit as well.

why are you on this thread again?

amateurist your anger is more appropriately directed at the media and it seriously enrages me that you can't seem to wrap your fucking head around that relatively simple equation.

― sleeve, Monday, May 21, 2012 10:27 PM (49 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my anger is definitely directed at the media. the tribune's "coverage" of this has been beyond appalling, throwing out any standards of what i used to think of as "journalism."

that said, am i allowed to be mad at _both_ the media and the selfish thrill-seeking black blockers as well? it isn't a zero-sum game.

why are you on this thread again?

― sleeve, Monday, May 21, 2012 10:29 PM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wow, you are really being not-nice. why is that? can i not criticize the black blockers on this thread?

I understand your frustration but I think it is tragically misdirected. there will always be at least one stupid person at any rally, it is not the responsibility of everybody else there to prevent the media from using them as the quote.

I mean, a lot of this "oh these horrible black bloc kids" handwringing reads as indirect criticism of the entire movement/everybody who was present and I am really seriously not down with that.

amateurist your anger is more appropriately directed at the media and it seriously enrages me that you can't seem to wrap your fucking head around that relatively simple equation.

― sleeve, Monday, May 21, 2012 10:27 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't know if you think i'm stupid or your inability to imagine that i might be enraged at the media _and_ critical of the "black block" types is indicative or your own small-mindedness (or perhaps just the heat of the moment). but you are being amazingly ungenerous here, for no discernable reason.

"there will always be at least one stupid person at any rally" does not really capture the concerted efforts by groups of young folks (in varying numbers, but sometimes in the dozens or 100s) to show up at every recent demo and systematically ignore the principles on which those who organized the rallies intended to carry it out -- indeed even showing contempt and even hostility to those in the rally itself.

does that make you frustrated? i don't have a limited supply of anger, i'm willing to share it with the tribune too. ;-)

I mean, a lot of this "oh these horrible black bloc kids" handwringing reads as indirect criticism of the entire movement/everybody who was present and I am really seriously not down with that.

― sleeve, Monday, May 21, 2012 10:33 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

!!!!!!!!

i have been a part of many of these rallies themselves (not to mention being deeply involved in the madison stuff last year).

the idea that you cannot criticize these dumb-ass lifestyle anarchists without somehow being guilty of tarnished the entire idea of organized protest is kind of o_O. take a step back and think about how reactionary your response is.

or do i have to establish my bona-fides first before i can criticize them?

seriously your initial reply basically assumes that i am a fucking idiot and you can't blame me for getting a little upset at that.

amateurist otm, though i think tolerance for black blockers within activist/anarchist/OWS circles is fair thing to criticize, too

Amateurist's posts throughout the Wisconsin protests were golden

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/how-fbi-entrapment-is-inventing-terrorists-and-letting-bad-guys-off-the-hook-20120515

The main thing I get from this article is not just national coverage of entrapment, but the fact that the CIA actively plotted a media event timed to hit on May 1 to associate occupy with domestic terrorism

i was at the courthouse at 26th and california in chicago on saturday doing prison support for the three guys charged with terrorism. it hit really close to home for me and the people i was with—bridgeport, where the apartment that was raided is, is just a neighborhood over from where we live, and the friend i was with has beer brewing equipment and was hosting like a dozen protestors from out of town. i'm still not clear on the alleged situation (the NLG defense lawyers are claiming entrapment but i've seen other statements by NLG lawyers that completely deny the charges) but the whole thing seems fucked and too pat. everyone there was pretty shocked when the $1.5 million per defendant bond was announced

yeah that is fucking awful

obviously the stuff now happening in the chicago w/ the supposed molotov cocktails is equally fishy, if that's a strong enough word. which is isn't.

xpost

actually it works w/o the xpost

is there a good article the summarizes what's happening w/ those arrested in chicago? i've followed it in bits and pieces.

the idea that you cannot criticize these dumb-ass lifestyle anarchists without somehow being guilty of tarnished the entire idea of organized protest is kind of o_O. take a step back and think about how reactionary your response is.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, May 21, 2012 8:36 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark

well I apologize for trying to think this stuff out while typing, and I wasn't trying to accuse you. what I'm trying to get at here is that, as invested parties, we feel too much of a sense of responsibility about dumb-ass black bloc posturing, and we take on a sense of failure when that kind of stupid shit ruins rallies and grabs headlines. but I don't think that it should be this thing we take on as a burden - and maybe I am speaking only for myself here, having had this conversation over and over for like 20 years now. we just need to ignore it, do whatever damage control is necessary, and move on. i'm wary of magnifying it to be emblematic of the failure of the "movement"" as a whole. the struggle has weird ripple effects, the stuff that grabs headlines now might not be what ends up having an impact five years down the road.

i disagree. i think it's really important to at least try to think of ways that the whole black bloc can be neutralized or distanced. that doesn't mean the press will suddently right itself, far from it. but i still think it's important.

i don't think its emblematic of any "failure" of the movement, it's just a persistent problem. i wish i had good answers for it but i'm not a good tactician.

i think kevin gosztola has been the best source for information for me at least. there's another two people who were arrested on terrorism charges yesterday (also accused of making/having molotov cocktails)
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/05/19/nato-3-came-to-chicago-to-commit-terrorist-acts-of-violence-cpd-fbi-secret-service-claim/
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/05/21/the-preemptive-prosecution-of-the-nato-5/

at least one of the chicago guys arrested was a livestreamer as i understand it, and another was reportedly anarchist black cross? i mean these people are A) recording and sharing what they're up to and B) trying to avoid arrest so they can help everyone else at a protest out. so i figure they're the least likely to get involved in something more legally shady since they have a direct interest in obeying the law the better to do their job. which means the whole thing to me stinks of frame-up and not just entrapment.

obviously the stuff now happening in the chicago w/ the supposed molotov cocktails is equally fishy, if that's a strong enough word. which is isn't.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:22 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, same entrapment techniques. "green is the new red" is a pretty great (if now apparently dated) book on the utilization of this stuff against the militant greens in the late 90s/early aughts.

btw i support the black bloc and the vast majority of their ("their", like they're a singular entity...) actions aren't about fucking with police or escalating conflicts—i think there was some discussion about this upthread. wholesale condemnation of them is buying into stereotypes that are promoted by the police and media

my eyes roll out of my head whenever someone (like my mom) says the phrase "violent anarchists"

re: cleveland 3 & nato5 this ran today in truthout

http://truth-out.org/news/item/9286-entrapment-of-cleveland-5-and-nato-3-is-nothing-new

btw i support the black bloc and the vast majority of their ("their", like they're a singular entity...) actions aren't about fucking with police or escalating conflicts—i think there was some discussion about this upthread. wholesale condemnation of them is buying into stereotypes that are promoted by the police and media

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:42 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thank you x 1 million

i have friends who're happy democrats excited to vote against romney in november, and they were tweeting their appreciation for the black bloc's defense throughout this weekend. bloc'ers stayed up all night throughout the weekend to stand watch at the convergence center guarding against raids too, as i hear it.

also, in the midst of frame-up bs like these guys in chicago are getting subjected to for basically livestreaming video and being outspoken and trying to provide first-aid in dodgy situations, to say "oh no anarchists with their streetfighting ways" is pretty much throwing them to the wolves.

Let's not forget that, unless the trolls who tend to come at me with damning shit have missed it, this weekend saw a lot of cop violence and next to no property destruction I can find report of. There are practical reasons to criticize the black bloc tactic--it's exceedingly difficult to root out provocateurs when anonymity is part of the raison d'etre, for example, and some (wrongly I think) view smashy smashy as an end in itself bcz they expect it to be tinder to light revolt--but I think to use those reasons to tar people who put themselves in harms way to safeguard other demonstrators & ongoing direct actions is at the least narrow-minded.

the folks i spoke to from the marches didn't feel safeguarded by those folks. and i certainly haven't in rallies i've attended. in fact they described and i recall a number of kerchief'd young folk actually pushing their way through lines of the march, shoving other protestors etc. this is commonplace.

i also think those folks are totally tone deaf (to mix senses) in terms of how their swagger and costuming is going to be perceived by the vast majority of folks including many folks in the rallies. this probably seems like small potatoes but it actually seems significant to me.

xp yeah, the only "property damage" i know of is the ripping down of a nato banner on friday. the guy who did that was dearrested that day (by whom i wonder...) and arrested again later i think

i realize we have fundamental disagreements on this stuff.

the guy who did that was dearrested that day (by whom i wonder...)

otm

i realize we have fundamental disagreements on this stuff.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:12 AM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sure and i think you're right on about the cultural/signaling issues

like, that's part of why i was so excited about the "clown bloc" when i got word of it--people making defense look jaunty! p disappointed when it turned out they were either A) a joke all along or (more likely) B) unable to get the numbers they wanted and ran a "it was a joke" press release.

like, i once had a long convo with a dc cop

hoos: "you don't have to stand here right now, you know"
cop: "sure i do, or you'll go break a window or something."
hoos: "what? no, some janitor will have to clean it up for shit pay."
cop: "so why do yall cover your faces?"
hoos: *looks around, lowers mask* "cause i don't wanna wind up in the paper and get fired"
cop: "right, you're not trying to look intimidating or gangster, suuuure"

and then i felt like dumb and naive for not realizing that that was how it was seen by most people

yeah i only saw a couple clown bloc people. i was definitely bothered by the organization of some of the unpermitted marches that i went to, like the one in solidarity with the nato 3 on saturday, but that had more to do with young people setting the pace so that all of the older protestors/disabled people/people with kids ended up at the back of the march. the black bloc'ers were the ones making it so that we could keep going

xp

just your comment on march organization made me remember, there's this kind of funny moment in the crimethinc doc 'breaking the spell' where the camera zooms in on a march marshal's hand as it waves/sort of gently implies to passerby "stay over there," but the zoom in is like LOOK AT THE SUBTLE TOTALITARIANISM OF THE MARCH MARSHAL

btw my favorite chant from the weekend, which unfortunately didn't get used on sunday: "we're here, we're queer, we're anarchists we'll fuck you up"

i just get a potent whiff of adolescent bravado/machismo (admittedly there are lots of women among them, but i don't think that precludes using that term) from a lot of these folks and that really, really, really puts me off. there's also a kind of manicheanism to their sensibility (as i understand it through reading stuff they've said/written--and not in the MSM--and chatting w/ them) that likewise i find deeply troubling.

btw my favorite chant from the weekend, which unfortunately didn't get used on sunday: "we're here, we're queer, we're anarchists we'll fuck you up"

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:26 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is what i mean.

there's a thin line between "empowerment of the disenfranchised" and "alienating the passive media-watchers", granted. but yeah we are obviously coming at this from different places and I have a lot of other shit going on, sorry for being snappy.

clown bloc is a great idea, would that make you feel better abt it amateurist? (serious question)

twitter also reported "1-2-3-4 fuck the bourgeoisie, 5-6-7-8 fuck the bourgeoisie," which made me lol irl

xxp yeah i understand why it didn't get used in the march, because it would be misread in the way that you did

xxp yeah i understand why it didn't get used in the march, because it would be misread in the way that you did

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:38 AM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am reading it as " "we're here, we're queer, we're anarchists we'll fuck you up"--is there some other way to read it?

if it was supposed to be ironic, keep in mind that irony is context-dependent and no way are most people going to see it this way.

you guys are so damned condescending BTW (big hoos excepted), you're kind of making my points for me.

there's also a kind of manicheanism to their sensibility (as i understand it through reading stuff they've said/written--and not in the MSM--and chatting w/ them) that likewise i find deeply troubling.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:27 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think you're right about this too to a point; it's the kind of logic that leads to attacking groups of white supremacists while they have overtly unobtrusive racist meetings in diners, for example. and like, i'm all for "smash racism" and anti-fascist organizing and all that, but when you attack a person because of what they believe in the misguided name of 'revolutionary violence' or whatever, i'm off your bus.

hoos u get any pussy at these things?

it's playing with stereotypes of violent anarchists while also resisting the violence that's constantly directed at queers and subverting the stereotype of queer people as weak targets of violence? honestly i'm sorry if i come off as condescending. i understand that the chant wouldn't translate to most observers.

I agree with amateurist re: 'we he're we're clear we're anarchist..." slogan. I can only read it as straight truth or irony, and I can't figure out which is worse.

Just wanted to make sure he wasn't alone.