overseas manufacturing in developing countries

but yeah the main idea is that we can always have 'more stuff' as long as stuff is 1s and 0s, or people doing stuff for you, we prob can't always have more stuff as long as stuff is, well, everything else

how much more stuff had you in mind- modern technology has been, in many ways, the breaking down of physical stuff into those 1s and 0s

idgi btjunkie tbh

well you can't bittorrent a house or an SUV

it's too bad cause that would solve the african poverty problem too

you did raise that earlier, tbf.

while nobody has offered the increasingly efficient management of information (and therefore entertainment, communications, financials, etc) as an answer to food shortages or housing crises in disadvantaged areas, these advances nonetheless create extra capacity in the existing global economy that could theoretically (in an ideal world) focus on the problems that stem from material resource and manpower shortages.

it's not 'a rising tide', but it's maybe close- nonetheless, increased efficiencies in any area free up at least those resources in that area that are transferable, basically

well from an environmental pov most peoples' emissions don't come from entertainment/communication/finance. this is partly why I'm an annnoying urbanist cause I think that hyperurban efficiences allow us to live the same 21st century lifestyle w/ less.

also 'free up' - sorta... I mean what's 'extra capacity'? efficiencies bring wealth but nobody w/ that wealth seems to consider it 'extra capacity'. like, with a moderately conservative definition of 'what does a human being need to live a decent lifestyle' we already have plenty of extra capacity w/ the wealth in america and western europe. if the wealthy americans who gain from future efficiences were willing to be taxed on it and allow it all to go to africa, that'd be one thing. ultimately a political problem not an economic one.

redistribution!

guess redistribution doesn't have to happen willingly, but it's important to keep reminding people it will be less painful in the long run if it does

you're picking the problems with my ubersystem as if you don't already agree with the structures in place covering the rest- huge transfer payments to developing economies from first world corps manufacturing and polluting overseas but selling in eeg us markets, enormous carbon taxes, strictly enforced environmental & workforce welfare regulations yaddda yadda yadda

all we need, really, is to get someone in power that will get the ball rolling, i tihnk that this obama dude could be our man

yeah I mean we prob agree in general terms about the big picture solutions, I just think the cultural/political resistence to big picture solutions is p fucking rigid

well yeah but while we're just shooting the shit like

re. emergence of unionisation in Europe and North America in late 19th and early 20th centuries:

feel like the political situation in USA/UK - that whole democratic representation thing - probably contributed

Well, maybe yes, in the UK at least where the unions formed a political party that was able to contest anti-union legislation, but unionisation also occurred to some extent in authoritarian or semi-authoritarian countries like Germany and Russia.

India is not short of trade unionists btw

... having said that, I'm not sure what countries you were referring to originally

re. emergence of unionisation in Europe and North America in late 19th and early 20th centuries:

feel like the political situation in USA/UK - that whole democratic representation thing - probably contributed

Well, maybe yes, in the UK at least where the unions formed a political party that was able to contest anti-union legislation, but unionisation also occurred to some extent in authoritarian or semi-authoritarian countries like Germany and Russia.

― The New Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 25 January 2012 05:31 (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The development of democracy went hand in hand with industrialization and urbanization. The anti corn-law movement and the chartists couldn't have happened without these and resulted in expanding the franchise and other democratic reforms, long before trade unions had much impact. Liberalism did a lot before the left really got going.

More on rising equality in China:

http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=12840

that's about overall inequality between urban/rural populations - but I'd be more interested in seeing the data between levels of income

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?_r=3&hpw=&pagewanted=all

lol:

“I actually think Apple does one of the best jobs of any companies in our industry, and maybe in any industry, of understanding the working conditions in our supply chain,” said Mr. Jobs, who was Apple’s chief executive at the time and who died last October.

“I mean, you go to this place, and, it’s a factory, but, my gosh, I mean, they’ve got restaurants and movie theaters and hospitals and swimming pools, and I mean, for a factory, it’s a pretty nice factory.”

Others, including workers inside such plants, acknowledge the cafeterias and medical facilities, but insist conditions are punishing.

“We’re trying really hard to make things better,” said one former Apple executive. “But most people would still be really disturbed if they saw where their iPhone comes from.”

in response to o. nate's link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/world/asia/26iht-letter26.html?pagewanted=all

Using innovative research techniques that bypassed official data, Mr. Wang estimated that not only were trillions of renminbi failing to appear in official assessments, but about two-thirds of it belonged to the top 10 percent of the population.

His conclusion: the rich were hiding their wealth, and society was far more unequal than the government was admitting — a politically sensitive subject.

so yeah overall income is rising, and a rising tide floats all boats, but overall income inequality is still probably increasing

the scott sumner link above is half pretty otm/interesting half sorta huh? I agree w/ pretty much everything until he gets here:

The current inequality trends in the US look bad, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we saw a reversal in those trends as well. The entire world is evolving toward a near 100% service economy in terms of jobs (not output.) I can’t imagine why low-skilled workers would not be able to do the “jobs of the future,” (which will be serving others) but perhaps I’m missing something.

does anyone know what the world evolves towards when one guy owns a single 3D printer that prints all the world's goods?

on a certain level I wonder if we think/talk too much about apple's factories, obv they are a big symbol of 21st century happy capitalism but the people making random plastic walmart crap in some other factory merit the same attention. I guess foxconn is one of the biggest players I just sometimes get the feeling like the 'people making your iphones are suffering' narrative disproportionally interests people .

sure but that's just the way it is, it's v convenient if you can have a kinda implied binary by only knowing about one half of that equation. didn't nike get busted for sweatshops in the '90s, & adidas sales uptick accordingly, even though they were both sorta equivalent in the kinda labour practices they were involved in? it's just that you're not on the side of the textbook bad dudes.

maybe not quite the same bc apple is as much its own thing as it is a competitor for each specific product, but still

It's that people have an emotional relationship with their iPhones that they don't have with the plastic crap they buy at WalMart, so if you print a story that includes iPhones, readers will read it. Journalists and editors know this. It's the same dynamic that makes advertisers put babies in ads because they know it will draw your attention more than a pic of their product would.

yeah apple's just a way to bring attention to the issue. chrome-plating is a nasty process but nobody really cares about what happens in a faucet or tailpipe manufacturing plant.

right I agree w/ all this stuff, I'm just saying sometimes you could get the impression that china's nothing more than a big apple factory, which I guess will eventually be true, but is far from being true today

It's also a big book factory, that's how I see it anyway.

That'd be interesting to get the full scope of overseas manufacturing and how it relates to our lives as consumers and the lives of workers in the factories. Maybe it'd be a bit too much for people to face, though, to see how much of our convenience and luxury rests on the backs of people living and working in terrible conditions. Seems like the kinda thing people would block out of their minds, though ... nobody (or at least decent people) likes being complicit in abusing people, especially when it makes their lives more convenient.

Funny how human nature doesn't change very much... was there ever a period in human history without some type of slavery? It's not just having people in physical shackles, but also circumstances and conditions that compel sacrificing your life and individual freedom to survive. Even when we do have the luxury of actual freedom of choice, there was a response to that: consumerism. Will the future be any different?

I think the more interesting question is, let's say the developing world agrees to strictly adhire to american labor standards. how much more would an iphone cost? would it be worth the jobs lost in the process?

The experience of working in assembly of small electronics, the experience of working in a factory running injection molding machines making plastic bowls, and the experience of working in a garment factory all very very different. Part of the reason why there's so much focus on that Apple plant is that the pace there is super intense because of the insane demand. There are industries where factory workers get to chill a bit, believe me.

err adhire = adhere

would it be worth the jobs lost in the process?

I don't believe any jobs would be lost - really. i think demand is price inelastic well beyond the price increase required to avoid sweatshops.

the difficulty is coordinated action - china doesn't want to go first because it's already facing pressure from vietnam, etc. apple doesn't want to raise the price of the iphone if samsung doesn't do this. etc.

well are we talking about some global minimum wage too? and I wasn't really talking about *just the iphone* which is fairly unusually price inelastic, I was just using it as a default object in a world w/ universal labor standards.

I'd imagine that if all the East Asian countries banded together and enforced higher qualify of life initiatives, people would find another way to make the most profits they can if there's an available alternative. Africa next? China's already moving some manufacturing to the continent and treating African employees even worse than Chinese employees.

So, probably won't make a squat of difference if China and all the Asian companies raise their standards to American standards, and probably won't do squat to help American workers. That's a totally off-hand conclusion, though.

China's not manufacturing anything in Africa, they are mining for resources

Foxconn, otoh, is opening a factory in brazil

that's why I said we should try to imagine the consequences of doing it globally xp

China is not moving manufacturing outside China, they are merely moving manufacturing the next province inland (previously the ass end of nowhere).

"manufacturing TO the next..."

right, a global minimum wage would do it. hopefully a living wage based on in-country prices.

it create a really weird situation as the ~800 million subsistence farmers in the world suddenly have an even greater incentive to migrate to cities.

*would create

Jon L I thought China was starting to feel pressure from countries like Vietnam?

Yes, sure, but they can shave labor costs down a bit by moving inland to a province which has not been through this whole process yet. Meanwhile the long-standing manufacturing cradle is being transformed into tech business 'destination cities'.

it create a really weird situation as the ~800 million subsistence farmers in the world suddenly have an even greater incentive to migrate to cities.

― lukas, Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

china claims that the number of urban residents now outnumber rural, though I have my doubts - that's just taking into account migrant workers, who still maintain hukou back in their rural villages

right, a global minimum wage would do it. hopefully a living wage based on in-country prices.

well while I don't think it holds true in all cases, I think that would cost jobs in the big picture. if cheap walmart plastic is more expensive, we're buying less of it, etc.

and yeah, traditionally it's been the eastern and southern coasts of China that have been the most developed through history - just because of proximity to water and shipping. china's infrastructure is catching up, rail lines are being built, to the interior - maybe in 50 years, china will be like america, where even living in the middle of bumfuck nowhere kansas (apologies to all people from kansas) can enjoy fresh ocean caught swordfish and fruits from venezuela.

haha in 50 years people in kansas might not either

As we talked about much earlier in this thread (ppl should read the whole thing it's good!) the lower cost of labor inland may be offset by the higher cost of trucking/railing the goods a further distance to the port...

i'm sure that would be true in some cases, but in other cases mightn't the wage increase just be absorbed by cutting profits? couldn't we think about the minimum wage basically as a redistributive tax?

xxxp