Mad Men on AMC • Fifth Season Thread

I think this comment on the Basket of Kisses website sums up better than I ever could how this isn't exactly a character change for Joan. It's a bit more obvious, more direct, but she has been dealing with being treated as a body her whole life (this is a woman who chose to marry her rapist to obtain her goal of being married to a man who could support her and who would give her a family - and is smart enough that you know she recognized it as rape):

While it definitely makes me sick to my stomach, yes, I find it believable — because I’ve seen it happen. This is 1967, not 2012. You can’t/won’t understand the mindset of women then if you didn’t live it then. Watching TV shows, documentaries, movies and reading books is not going to really help anyone understand it. This was so much more of a man’s world than it is now, and women had so little power that it really isn’t comprehensible from the mindset of 2012. It just isn’t.

This is coming from someone who adores the character Joan; she’s one of my top three favorites on this show. I really do adore her. And I feel like I see her clearly.

Joan’s been exchanging herself for things she’s wanted since season one, and if you remember, she suggested to Peggy in S1E1 that she do this also. Throughout five seasons, she’s given herself away, in exchange for dinners, for nights out, for jewels, furs, for birds, and for nothing. We’ve seen so many, many examples of this.

This was what she was taught, by her mother and by the culture she grew up and lived in still in 1967. Her “value,” her “skill set,” her thing to offer in the marketplace was/is her extraordinary beauty, her body and her sexuality. This was what men — the power players and the power brokers — always responded to and what they gave value to. Joan knows her value in the marketplace.

No judgment here from me. It was the way it was. Joan is in her mid-30′s, she has a new baby, she’s unexpectedly a single mother, she lives and works at the whims of men. We may not be seeing it on screen, but you can bet that Joan has seen her first lines, gray hairs and the beginning of sagging of certain body parts. She knows her value is going to start to diminish. Now before anyone blows a gasket — I’m NOT referring to what I see as her value, or we as viewers see as her value, but what Joan HERSELF sees as her value, and what she sees and has confirmed each and every day.

Joan made a good deal, when offered the chance, by her life experiences. Would I have made it in 1967? I didn’t make that particular decision but I made many that were based on similar cultural mindsets and beliefs of the times I lived in, in those years. Would you? Maybe, maybe not. It’s 2012, and we’re not walking in her shoes living her life.

Was she sick before, during and afterward? I’ll bet you everything I own that she was. Was she diminished by this decision? Yes. Undoubtedly. Would she make it again, given the chance? Probably. Joan is doing the best she knows to do, living in the world that existed in 1967, given what she knew, what she was taught about her value, and in a world dominated and driven by men.

None of us here, now, have the right to judge her. The fact that I’m still sick to my stomach at 3:35 am and not sleeping is more to do with the powerful reminders that MW gave us in tonight’s show about the world that existed then for women, that was even worse in the years before that, and that still exists today. Matt did a superb job. And it’s good that it’s so disturbing for so many of us tonight.
http://www.lippsisters.com/2012/05/28/recap-the-other-woman/

I liked how in the middle of all the Pete rottenness, they threw in him reading Goodnight Moon to his kid.

Also: am I mistaken, or does he have copies of the Earth pictures Rory (and others) talked about pinned to the wall of his office?

I didn't notice the moon pictures - but I did go to a friend's apartment and SHE had them framed on her wall, one week after I'd seen the Mad Men (they were on the wall before the episode; she's a science journalist.)

Who knows if Greg can take 2.5% of SDCP from Joan, seeing as they are mid-divorce?

from tom and lorenzo

Which brings us to our next point: The partners will never forget that Joan literally slept her way to a partnership. This part of the story has us confused quite a bit. It doesn’t make much sense to us. Joan, as we know her, wouldn’t agree to such a thing, no matter how much money was offered, simply because she would know that from this point on, the most important people in her career will always think of her as a prostitute. After all the hard work she’d done to establish herself as a highly competent manager, we’re having a near-impossible time believing that she would do this. In other words, we believe that Joan could sleep with a man she’s not attracted to in order to get something out of it. In fact, we believe that Joan has done some version of that before in her life, and we believe there’s a cynical, practical part of her that would just shut herself off and get through the act, knowing that the benefits could be life-changing. What we don’t believe at all is that she’d expose herself to the level of judgment and possible ridicule she would be receiving from people like Roger and Don.

i basically agree w/ this.

Pete framed it in such a way that it seemed like he'd been urged by Don and Roger to do this - she told him off for discussing it with the other partners. As far as she knew, they'd all "decided" she would/should do it and so she was already a whore in their eyes. The context of finding out that Don had vetoed it but told her AFTER she'd already done it was so heartbreaking, watching that tiny amount of sadness on her face, under her mask. But I figure if people are going to think that way about her without even waiting for her decision, it's reasonable that she'd decide she might as well go ahead and do it. My husband said after her contract discussion with Pete "at least she's doing this for HER company now, not the company she works for."

Hey wait a second - the client is gone to bed and Joan, her Mother and Don are still roaming around? It's not even so late that Don decided to wait until the next day to drop by and discourage her? Damn, Grandpa, stay up til it gets dark at least..

yeah i raised an eyebrow @ the timing of all that

What we don’t believe at all is that she’d expose herself to the level of judgment and possible ridicule she would be receiving from people like Roger and Don.

finefinemusic otm in responding to this. she did it because she felt that all the partners, including don, wanted her to. that suggestion must have come as a huge, dispiriting blow, and i'm not surprised she acquiesced under the circumstances, if not happily. "if that's all you see me as, then fine. but it's going to cost you."

regardless of her workplace situation, how the other partners view her and whatever rumors as may float around, she knows that she and her child will now more than likely be financially secure for life.

As far as the timing thing: Jaguar guy had a wife so I assumed they were going it out of the way in the evening and then he had to get back home to his wife.

Very interesting to see Weiner play so much of that same scene twice. I was wondering how long he was going to do it, and ending it on Joan's realization that Don didn't cosign was perfect.

btw cheouggggh offered peggy $19,000 in 1967 money. what would that be today?

Not sure, but it's $7500 more than what Joan was making pre-Jaguar.

$122674.91
according to http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

that's a nice sum huh.

Go Peggy!

for someone who hasn't hit 30, in particular. damn.

xpoat, actually $6500 more.

i smell spinoff! diary of a mad adwoman amirite.

I've been saying for at least a couple seasons that the focus will shift to Peggy and away from Don by the end of the show's run. This could either be the beginning or debunk my theory altogether.

What cost $12500 in 1967 would cost $80707.18 in 2010.

joan was doing aight, though NYC cost of living makes it tougher

NYC still had rent control in 1967, though. I would imagine it was comparatively cheaper to live there even as the 70s were approaching.

Egads, according to that same site, the 50 large they offered Joan comes out to $332190.

That's still no "indecent proposal".

xp to Gukbe: makes sense. I thought dude was about to doze off but coulda been post coital sleepiness.

Who has done more for Peggy, Don or Feddy Rumsen?

*Freddy I mean

Freddy peed on his floor so Peggy got his office, kind of a big deal

I liked the chemistry between those two. I like Freddy Rumsen.

I can understand why Joan did what she did in the same way I can understand why people commit suicide. Her career is basically over now, she will never go any farther or be able to accomplish anything else - she grabbed the brass ring for her kid and fell on her sword, more or less.

I really hope Peggy's leaving of SCDP sticks, and I imagine if it does they'll devote a significant amount of screen time to her at the new place. Could make for some great stories. It makes me wonder if Wiener has been planning it from the very start.

I don't know if Joan's career is over or not. As this ep made clear, she only had so much respect to begin with. I don't think that what she's done has diminished her cred in the eyes of at least a few of the partners, and meanwhile she has a stake in decisions now, which she can roll into a fair amount if she pleases.

Yeah, I'd like to see her take charge in a really awesome way. and by "really awesome way" somehow make Pete lose his job and have him die a horrible death homeless and alone.

I don't think that what she's done has diminished her cred in the eyes of at least a few of the partners, and meanwhile she has a stake in decisions now, which she can roll into a fair amount if she pleases.

Roger certainly is gonna think less of her. Don isn't going to respect her anymore. Pete never respected her to begin with. Lane is now completely compromised and increasingly a liability, his respect is going to be largely worthless. Cooper is the hardest to read.

These are all men who are both going to be grateful for her decision and resentful of her price. She will be a junior partner with limited room to maneuver and few resources - with Peggy gone, she has no allies in the office (apart from Lane, with whom there is going to be some kind of showdown/reckoning anyway).

Don isn't going to respect her anymore

Dunno if I'd go that far. Their bond is pretty deep.

I think Don will have an understanding of the reasons. I think he's more upset with the company and himself than he is with Joan.

damn, the stuff with Joan was really depressing. Not sure what to think of it really. Hamm was amazing in Peggy's resignation scene (as was she, but him especially), going from kind of a blase reaction to bewildered anger to sadness

I think the biggest thing that happened on this episode was the revelation that Dale works at SCDP. Dude is on this show maybe once a season, and I'm always surprised he still works there.

wasn't he there as a freelancer?

Yeah, maybe. But I got the impression he was an account guy in season 1. Then he popped up once or twice in subsequent seasons.

"She will be a junior partner with limited room to maneuver and few resources"

We'll see. I strongly suspect Joan will outlast Lane and Pete at the very least.

Joan has a juicy tell-all to pen in the '70s, and bad Mr. Rory will "accidentally" shoot Pete with his own gun soonish.

I kinda think we won't be seeing much of Peggy anymore, actually. When these characters leave SDCP we don't see much of them any longer. I mean, a bit, sure. But I doubt there will be much Peggy unless she comes back.

Pete is worse than Duck.

seems weird tho. after Don she was the most important character.

xpoast

although icing main characters seems to be a theme in my fav shows right now.

like i said, sitcom spinoff!

well this was ugly, but in its ugliness it had some life and forward motion which i'm realizing was kind of missing from this season so far.

i think all the angles and justifications and reasons for the joan thing were laid out pretty well. plus all of the ironies of who knows what about it. i don't really know what to think about it but worrying about 'respect' can be spun out in a bunch of different ways. nobody can doubt she's a trooper.

plus all of the ironies of who knows what about it: pete tells don "it was her idea" (but it wasn't, it was lane's) (and she only agreed thinking don was in favor) etc etc

the partnership stake being lane's idea is p interesting.

peggy and don's scene was out of sight.

though honestly lane's money trouble is one of those hanging problems that strains my credulity. are we supposed to think that being hard up is shameful enough that he can't find a solution openly? i don't think having the government come after your money would be to this group, esp. cooper the randian.

I'm not so sure that Joan is going to lose out from this - she is the person who keeps the entire business running, basically. Don figured out from day 1 not to cross her. I don't see how it changes a lot except that she'll presumably make more money.

freddy in the diner was fun. he's the only everyman type on the show who'll enjoy sitting in a normal diner, working his way through coffee and pie around normal people. anyone else on the show would be like "oh i suppose i will deign to sit amongst these plebeians, just this once."

i found this to be a heartbreaking episode not just for joan, but also for don. when don registered that joan had gone through with the deal, i thought i saw something in him die a little.

Hamm was amazing in Peggy's resignation scene (as was she, but him especially), going from kind of a blase reaction to bewildered anger to sadness

quoted for truth.

I feel like Joan fucking that Jaguar Jagoff was the darkest moment in this whole series. I mean, I don't think you can watch five seasons of this show without being completely in love with her, and you just don't want the woman you love making that decision.

Also, I love Lane, but I really hope he gets caught. It's just fair. Maybe Don'll challenge him to fisticuffs over the forged signature.