the bbc sherlock series by the dr who 'bloke' and starring tim from the office

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is there already a thread on this? its fun!

watson was in AFGHANISTAN

max, Monday, 9 August 2010 15:47 (4 years ago) Permalink

as he was in the conan doyle stories

Ward Fowler, Monday, 9 August 2010 15:48 (4 years ago) Permalink

though i guess watson was in AFGHANISTAN in the stories too eh

xp

max, Monday, 9 August 2010 15:48 (4 years ago) Permalink

"Cumberbatch's Sherlock uses modern technology, such as texting and internet blogging, to solve the crimes"

max, Monday, 9 August 2010 15:48 (4 years ago) Permalink

some talk on the bbc iplayer thred:


SHERLOCK

starring martin freeman and bernard cumberbatch

first episode has been and gone and was surprisingly... actually alright

― the tape store called... (cozen), Monday, 26 July 2010 08:20 (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Holmes texting and using 'tinternet seemed really natural. Also LOL at "three patch problem". Running around central Loldon with a map overlaid on the screen = DUD though. Wish it were slightly less nu-Who like, but it's a Mark Gatiss thing so inevitable.

― ninjas and lasers and gold and (snoball), Monday, 26 July 2010 09:05 (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Gatiss totally played the brother as Panto Mandelson.

― the phantom flâneur flinger (suzy), Monday, 26 July 2010 09:55 (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Wish it were slightly less nu-Who like, but it's a Mark Gatiss thing so inevitable.

You don't blame this on Moffatt at all? I really liked it.

― ailsa, Monday, 26 July 2010 16:40 (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

read that as new-wu and got confused and excited.

― a hoy hoy, Monday, 26 July 2010 17:42 (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

xp I got confused. It's a freaky Moffatt/Gatiss joint all the way...

― ninjas and lasers and gold and (snoball), Monday, 26 July 2010 17:50 (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This was good. Very good. Although Martin Freeman's basically playing Martin Freeman.

Intriguingly their 221b baker street set has a near identical layout to the one in the Granada/Jeremy Brett version.

― no, you're dead right, it's a macaroon (ledge), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 11:35 (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, it's hard to imagine anyone looking at the pasty, pudgy Freeman and thinking 'hm, there's a military man, not long back from under the Afghan sun'. This was okay though. Cumberbatch great, Gatiss grates.

― Born too beguiled (DavidM), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 11:39 (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah Cumberbatch was terrific and this series has fantastic potential.

Didn't think a modern Sherlock would work but they somehow pulled it off, the GPS and laptops aspect didn't feel shoehorned in but where they nailed it was getting the atmosphere. The way it was filmed really helped give a claustrophobic and menacing Victorian feel to modern London, lots of dark back alleys and very little of the visual clutter you associate with this city. They should keep the series out of gleaming office buildings and keep it in the realm of dark streets and snug old pubs IMO.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 11:44 (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Liked this a lot, and I'm a bit of a Holmes traditionalist. Only bit that felt a bit LOLmodern shoehorned was the continued references to them being in the gayXorz. Or is that an in-joke about 'Sherlock', the game for the Spectrum and C64?

― Hey Jabulani! Pope of four four two. (aldo), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 12:42 (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I thought martin freeman was really good; surprisingly so, in fact, but granted I've not seen in him in anything stand-out since the office

― cozen, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 12:45 (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The way it was filmed really helped give a claustrophobic and menacing Victorian feel to modern London

also the way my PS3 auto screen dimming kicked in after about 30 mins and i didn't notice for another 30 :/

― no, you're dead right, it's a macaroon (ledge), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 12:47 (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Only just caught up with last week's, good stuff. I like the fact they included a puzzle without an explanation right at the end (Sherlock's comment re how to tell a good restaurant, with the answer presumably being lol Chinese people are short)

― if, Sunday, 1 August 2010 19:45 (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Am quite enjoying Sherlock, I have to say. Thought the last episode was a bit laborious, but among other things I like a lot - the configuring of London topography in a way that reminds me strongly of Machen, Stevenson (funny sort of London but still a version of it), and Conan Doyle (museums, small out-of-the-way shops, abandoned houses, dark side-streets); all the emphasis on hidden information - again a sort of reconfiguration of the London environment, whether it's mobile communication or graffiti; the way it patterns Victorian sensational fiction themes (such as the sax rohmer yellow peril stuff of the last one) on to the 21st century; + all the comic book stuff (a touch of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen about it, again perhaps not surprisingly) and, you know, a proper fight! behind the curtain of a stage! Great!

That last one was extremely indebted (presumably deliberately) to The Talons of Weng-Chiang, not at all a bad thing imo.

I don't watch a lot of tv so maybe there's a few programmes doing interesting stuff like this, but yeah, good stuff.

― Hide the prickforks (GamalielRatsey), Tuesday, 3 August 2010 12:34 (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

thought sherlock was p.dece on the whole

― cozen, Monday, 9 August 2010 08:54 (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i never made the sherlock holmes / dr who connection before but so many things about holmes and watson are so VERY who, aren't they

i thought the first episode was tremendous - i love the text overlays on the screen

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Monday, 9 August 2010 11:11 (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ledge, Monday, 9 August 2010 15:49 (4 years ago) Permalink

lot of grousing on ~forums~ earlier about moriarty and his accent but I thought he was ace

cozen, Monday, 9 August 2010 15:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

moriarty was p. great last night. Also really like the floating-text-message device. and the coat.
xp otm

stet, Monday, 9 August 2010 15:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

moriarty was great i thought! sad that it's already over tho? didnt realise there were only going to be 3 eps

just sayin, Monday, 9 August 2010 15:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

has xmas special written all over it

cozen, Monday, 9 August 2010 15:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

Haven't seen the third one yet but the first two were pretty good fun, I hope they spin a few more out of them.

Matt DC, Monday, 9 August 2010 16:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

woah wait, what, that's it? ffs.

stet, Monday, 9 August 2010 16:17 (4 years ago) Permalink

3 eps too many imho

former moderator, please give generously (DG), Monday, 9 August 2010 16:21 (4 years ago) Permalink

well each one is the length of a movie. it's basically 3 dr whos, or 6 half hours of american television (approx 20 mins each)

progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Monday, 9 August 2010 16:24 (4 years ago) Permalink

er i mean 6 dr whos, and 13 half hours of american television

progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Monday, 9 August 2010 16:30 (4 years ago) Permalink

is this seeable w/o cable

pies. (gbx), Monday, 9 August 2010 16:33 (4 years ago) Permalink

do u know about "the internet"

max, Monday, 9 August 2010 16:36 (4 years ago) Permalink

no :(

pies. (gbx), Monday, 9 August 2010 16:37 (4 years ago) Permalink

I saw the first episode & all those words floating around reminded me of "Ghost Writer."

spanikopitcon (Abbott), Monday, 9 August 2010 16:42 (4 years ago) Permalink

benedict cumberbatch Vs. sheldon turnipseed

conrad, Monday, 9 August 2010 17:17 (4 years ago) Permalink

Totally watchable. Was disappointed with Moriarty, the end of last night's episode was a little soppy. Still good though, Cumberbatch was great in the role.

mmmm, Monday, 9 August 2010 17:57 (4 years ago) Permalink

I watched this last night, I was pleasantly surprised - "reboot" of an old favourite character is usually shorthand for dreadful garbage, but this was good. It was schlocky, but kind of felt like grownup schlock, not adolescent bollocks. Cumberbatch was great.

Take my hand, we'll make it I swear (Pashmina), Monday, 9 August 2010 18:10 (4 years ago) Permalink

low expectations for this, found it to be surprisingly enjoyable, although there's plenty of stuff to nitpick about. ep 2 was the weakest, I think, trying to update the 19th century version of the "exotic orient" just came off a bit too silly. and ending the last ep on a cliffhanger, with no word on when the next one will be-- irritating. but everyone above on the greatness of Cumberbatch is otm.

her breath came in short pants (sciolism), Monday, 9 August 2010 20:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

How come there's only three episodes? That seems crazy.

Benedict Cumberbatch is the name of some Hogwarts reject, I still refuse to believe that that is a real name.

ô_o (Nicole), Monday, 9 August 2010 20:57 (4 years ago) Permalink

conrad, Monday, 9 August 2010 21:01 (4 years ago) Permalink

That might be even worse! Although it is pretty close.

ô_o (Nicole), Monday, 9 August 2010 21:02 (4 years ago) Permalink

Three 1 1/2 hour films is pretty good going - wouldn't have been surprised if they'd just got to make one single episode to start with, tbh (though I think they did an hour-long unscreened pilot which became the first episode). Presume Moffatt and Gatiss a bit busy with Doctor Who stuff as well.

Also, everyone saying Ben Cucumberpatch is awesome is incredibly OTM. I've seen him in other stuff and not been wowed, but he fits this really well.

ailsa, Monday, 9 August 2010 21:06 (4 years ago) Permalink

Speaking of weird and colonial, three guesses why Cumberbatch is a relatively common name amongst African-Americans. Benedict Cumberbatch is really excellent.

Won't someone respond to my point that Mark Gatiss' Mycroft is like watching Peter Mandelson in panto?

duchy of Pornwall (suzy), Monday, 9 August 2010 21:11 (4 years ago) Permalink

three guesses why Cumberbatch is a relatively common name amongst African-Americans

This reminds me of thinking that maybe ska pioneer Theophilus Beckford was related to mento singer Stanley Beckford or U-Roy aka Ewart Beckford, until it was pointed out that there was another reason why a lot of Jamaicans are called Beckford. Which was a slight bummer to my joyful contemplation of reggae history.

Think it's about time I watched this Sherlock, too.

rah rah rah wd smash the oiks (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 9 August 2010 21:26 (4 years ago) Permalink

Didn't Gatiss say he'd based him on Mandelson?

ailsa, Monday, 9 August 2010 21:37 (4 years ago) Permalink

I have no idea, but it is super-funny. I want to see him sitting on a big throne with a bound volume of fairy tales.

Benedict Cumberbatch has brought his family history up in interviews to basically say o_0. A few years ago I was at a book launch and was introduced to a frightfully posh young man whose surname was Womack. I hadn't realized this was an English name AT ALL until that point, and then the guy told me the singers' surname was no accident because theirs had been a slaving family.

duchy of Pornwall (suzy), Monday, 9 August 2010 21:47 (4 years ago) Permalink

Just watched the third one, this kind of nonsense is 100% up my street. Not much that I didn't enjoy, there. A few months ago we re-watched all the Jonathan Creeks and this filled the void that left quite nicely. Although J-Creek wouldn't have had any woooo mysteeeerious stuff (left mysterious).

>>SPOILERS>>
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I totally called Moriarty as a bad guy the first time he appeared, then forgot.
WHY would someone faking a painting make half of it something so weird and "obviously" fake? This really confused me. Was the mistake put in there deliberately by Moriarty? But how?
>
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>
>

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 05:39 (4 years ago) Permalink

Btw in the opening shot, my husband was convinced that Sherlock was actually Alan Rickman. He looks and sounds identical there!

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 06:19 (4 years ago) Permalink

Only grouse so far (apart from the fact that ep.2 wasn't as good as the other 2) is I hope they don't just go for lots of murders. One of the things I enjoyed about the originals is the stories about non-lethal puzzles and oddities.

According to Zoe Ball (who, I'm sure, must know) Cumberbatch went up for Dr. Who and Matt Smith went up for Dr. Watson. Someone in casting seems to be doing the right thing anyway.

i find music confusing and annoying (Ned Trifle II), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 09:09 (4 years ago) Permalink

They're already setting up Holmes marathons in the USA
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5iVaDQ26TVnBtf3h0iisgyybUFRTQ

i find music confusing and annoying (Ned Trifle II), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 09:10 (4 years ago) Permalink

Matt Smith read for Watson and was judged too manic, but when BC was approached to try for Doctor Who, he didn't want to do it because of the merchandising nightmare. This information is available to anyone who reads a newspaper.

duchy of Pornwall (suzy), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 09:28 (4 years ago) Permalink

cumberbatch would have made an impeccable doctor imo

progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 09:30 (4 years ago) Permalink

This was a lot of fun to watch, and I hope they make more... Cumberbatch borrows a couple of mannerisms from Brett (quick lift off the chair while sitting in it indian-style, and the quick flash of rictus type of smile) but takes a totally different, and appealing, tack with the character. I also loved the mindfuck where they show the overhead shot of him at his desk, looking like he's just shot up. As intended, it made me think "here we go again, lazy scriptwriters making Holmes use cocaine DURING a case, which he never ever does" and then it turns out to be nicotine patches! Hilarious. They got me.

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 09:41 (4 years ago) Permalink

I had no idea his mum is Wanda Ventham. Blimey.

Michael Jones, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 09:46 (4 years ago) Permalink

BC even turned up as a guest in a friend's wedding photos last week (she's from a luvvie family too). Truly this man gets everywhere.

duchy of Pornwall (suzy), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 09:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

Fast forward to 7:14 for nice comic moment and Michael Winner looking like an ass.

State Attorney Foxhart Cubycheck (Billy Dods), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 09:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

cumberbatch would have made an impeccable doctor imo

He would have ruined the show for me thanks to his "You have to bite it!" scene in Atonement. In Sherlock it's not as bad because I can't see him raping Martin Freeman.

ô_o (Nicole), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:08 (4 years ago) Permalink

I'm sure ILX's slashfic aficionados know where to find exactly what you describe.

duchy of Pornwall (suzy), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

I had no idea his mum is Wanda Ventham. Blimey.

Blimey indeed, I just happnened to see her in The Saint before I left the house, what a babe!

Dr. Who is a bit like Sherlock Holmes in many way.

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

Blimey indeed, I just happnened to see her in The Saint before I left the house, what a babe!

would objectify

unchill english bro (history mayne), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:18 (4 years ago) Permalink

Really ejoyed this. Even Martin Freeman was suprisingly decent, but Cumberbatch was amazing in the Sherlock role. Was talking to a friend about Cumberbatch in Doctor Who and we both came to the conclusion he would make a great Master to play off Matt Smith if Steven Moffat ever goes down that route.

Mr.Prologue, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:35 (4 years ago) Permalink

would objectify

― unchill english bro (history mayne), 35 minutes ago

^^^^^^^^Genuine laugh out loud at this popping up in blog view. Would seriously love if this caught on as a meme.

Kinda follow Penny Red's views on "oh lawd enough with the Holmes already" but, erm, I <3 Cumberbatch for his Momusian turn in To The Ends Of The Earth. I'm avoiding reading any of the slash (it's already turning up in my LJ stream) until I've seen the thing. Which at my rate of tellyviewing is, erm, never.

That is all.

all your life is channel 13, Sesame Street, what does it mean? (Masonic Boom), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:57 (4 years ago) Permalink

I'm avoiding reading any of the slash (it's already turning up in my LJ stream)

always read this as LJ you-know-who

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:58 (4 years ago) Permalink

Loving it so far - Cumberbatch great, Freeman really good as well (nicely balanced between easy-to-follow everyman & the more actorly damaged army doctor, which is a nice reading of Watson), there's wit & nous in the modernising, cute nods for the fans around the place (Mycroft losing weight, Rache, plenty more I'm missing), really likes London. Perfect Sunday viewing.

And seconded on the drug-haze misdirect - so glad that it didn't just blunder into the world of EDGY Holmes cliché.

tetrahedron of space (woof), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 12:12 (4 years ago) Permalink

Another vote for 'would objectify'. LULZ

duchy of Pornwall (suzy), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 14:45 (4 years ago) Permalink

Has anyone noticed that the writers seem to be fond of the same material that's pretty popular on blogs documenting novel or secret architecture? I'd read about both unused train stations and that apartment facade hiding a train ventilation system before.

mh, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 14:50 (11 months ago) Permalink

I dunno, I think of those things as London general knowledge really; I have never knowingly read a blog about novel or secret architecture (though I read the odd architecture blog here and there) and I knew something about both of those.

Tim, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 14:54 (11 months ago) Permalink

Actually, I'm not sure if the London one is real, but here's a similar setup in Brooklyn:
http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/brooklyn-vent.html

mh, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 14:54 (11 months ago) Permalink

And here's a guide to possible future episode locales!
http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2005/11/london-topological.html

mh, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 14:55 (11 months ago) Permalink

Ah, here we go, was this the one from the episode? http://www.urban75.org/london/leinster.html

mh, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 14:57 (11 months ago) Permalink

yup.

mark e, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 15:00 (11 months ago) Permalink

It's really bugging me where I first heard about those facades, like a few months ago. Wee they in another film or documentary prog on UK telly?

kinder, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 15:31 (11 months ago) Permalink

Has anyone noticed that the writers seem to be fond of the same material that's pretty popular on blogs documenting novel or secret architecture? I'd read about both unused train stations and that apartment facade hiding a train ventilation system before.

Yes, I mean, people know about this stuff apart from on blogs but they are a mainstay of a certain set of British blogging

There's also a lot of texting, tweeting and blogging within the show itself. Not sure how I feel about this, seems to work within the show/be used interestingly?

cardamon, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 18:17 (11 months ago) Permalink

kind of an accepted part of real life these days

mh, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 18:21 (11 months ago) Permalink

i think it's good: partly because it forces you to address certain mechanics about how these things work in your plots (text updates to get Watson out of bonfire, can't keep anything secret cos of Twitter), which in turn forces the writer to consider glib use of plot mechanics, also refreshes the language and visual presentation - total effect is to produce something that is aware and receptive to technology in the world, even if it also means getting it wrong sometimes (in a Scandal in Belgravia persistently referring to a phone that could take photos as a 'camera phone' for instance).

The Leinster Gardens facade i've known since god knows when, tho can't remember where I first heard it. Fairly commonly ref'd as prank played on newly-recruited... fucking finding a gender neutral term for postman is a bastard - I'm going to go for the appropriately 19th C PO term 'letter carriers'. It's mentioned in a few tube histories as well.

Fizzles, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 20:07 (11 months ago) Permalink

I didn't really like the whole swipe card thing because it was Rube Goldberg sort of solution, when the best Sherlock stuff to me hinges on his inhuman ability to observe and recall things. Of course in the original story he doesn't really perform any feats of that kind... they just kind of watch Milverton get his comeuppance and stay out of the way.

erry red flag (f. hazel), Tuesday, 14 January 2014 21:22 (11 months ago) Permalink

I read it as less of him relying on a technical glitch and more his observation of how human nature would make people react to variations on that situation

mh, Tuesday, 14 January 2014 21:26 (11 months ago) Permalink

I think the fact that he's proposing to Janine merely to get into Magnussen's apartment was sufficient Sherlockian antics for the scene, and the swipe card stuff was too gimmicky. The idea that a bunch of security guards will come running because someone unauthorized tries their swipe card on his private elevator is pure silliness. It just wouldn't open the elevator. If Magnussen was that paranoid, he'd station a guard next to the elevator.

erry red flag (f. hazel), Tuesday, 14 January 2014 21:45 (11 months ago) Permalink

One thing bugging me about the episode: How did SPOILER#1 get in the office?

I thought Sher's mom's book on the mathematics of combustion might tie into Watson's burning, but no.

zanarkand bozo (abanana), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 04:43 (11 months ago) Permalink

Also, a bit ironic that they seem to be getting their science facts from British rags like Murdoch's tabloids.

zanarkand bozo (abanana), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 04:48 (11 months ago) Permalink

One thing bugging me about the episode: How did SPOILER#1 get in the office?

I thought Sher's mom's book on the mathematics of combustion might tie into Watson's burning, but no.

these things bother me less when they're not central generally - but let's say as an assassin her approach wdve been less to deceive Janine than, idk, steal her card and get it copied, maybe (she's dressed in black the in the brightest building in the world) she got in from outside w'out using the lift "somehow".

Fizzles, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 06:59 (11 months ago) Permalink

I thought Sher's mom's book on the mathematics of combustion might tie into Watson's burning, but no.

The mom's book seemed to be a Moriarty reference; in "The Final Problem" Moriarty is a former math professor, and in some other story it's said he's written a book with a similar title. Because of this, some internet folks have speculated that Sherlock's mom was actually behind the final plot twist, and will be the main antagonist for season 4... I guess there are a couple things that support such a theory: during the Christmas dinner scene, we find out Mrs. Holmes is quite protective of Sherlock ("Somebody's put a bullet in my boy, and if I ever find out who, I shall turn absolutely monstrous!"), and the plot twist certainly gets him out of a bad situation.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 07:37 (11 months ago) Permalink

Spoiler #1 got in through Janine somehow, it's in the dialogue. Sherlock compares notes with her about building a fake relationship just to get in - in the fake house iirc.

Ian Glasper's trapped in a scone (aldo), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 08:26 (11 months ago) Permalink

One thing that bugs me is the USB stick containing the files on her former life... IIRC they go straight from the fake house to Baker Street, so she must have had the stick with her when she went to the fake house, but why would she? At that point she didn't know she would be exposed. I guess that could be a simple continuity error, but why did she have those files in the first place? If she wanted no one to know about her past, shouldn't she have destroyed them long ago?

Tuomas, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 09:37 (11 months ago) Permalink

Yeah. During the episode I assumed she got it from Magnussen, but the ending means that's unlikely.

zanarkand bozo (abanana), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 10:57 (11 months ago) Permalink

Maybe she keeps it with her at all times so she knows where it is?

Chewshabadoo, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 13:34 (11 months ago) Permalink

Maybe Magnussen typed it all out for her in plaintext ASCII for convenience?

Neil Nosepicker (Leee), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 16:20 (11 months ago) Permalink

Maybe she keeps it with her at all times so she knows where it is?

Maybe, but why would she have that stuff on file in the first place, if she wants no one to find out about the past? What if John had accidentally found the files and taken a peek?

Tuomas, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 18:20 (11 months ago) Permalink

Ahh, that explains everything, Tuomas! She carries it on her everywhere, and to ensure that John will never peek at it, she sets up the entire Magnussen plot so that after an initial interim of tension, John will take a principled stand and refuse to read her files AND destroy the USB drive FOR her. Ingenious! CIA training!

Neil Nosepicker (Leee), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 18:44 (11 months ago) Permalink

Do we really need to totally avoid spoilers in this thread? People were talking pretty freely about the previous two episodes as soon as they'd aired. Personally I avoid this thread until I've seen the latest episode, I was kinda assuming everyone does the same. Are there people reading this who haven't yet seen "His Final Vow"?

What did the episode title a refer to, btw? What was the "final vow"? In the previous two the title was dropped in the dialogue, but it was less clear in this one... Or did I miss it?

― Tuomas, Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:45 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

max, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 20:22 (11 months ago) Permalink

oh whoops

max, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 20:23 (11 months ago) Permalink

i mean tot otm the other tuomas post, oh well

max, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 20:23 (11 months ago) Permalink

Also, while I mostly enjoyed this episode, I thought the way they defeated Magnussen felt a bit too easy, since the writers' and the actor had done a nice job in making him a memorably icky villain. For a supposed mastermind, he was pretty stupid in revealing the secret of his secret vaults to Sherlock and Watson, right? I mean, after that he was fair game for anyone who wanted him dead; even if he was sure Sherlock and Watson wouldn't kill him, they could've simply tipåed off someone who would be willing to do it, and based on what Magnussen's actions, there probably wouldn't have been a shortage of candidates.

In fact, I was pretty sure the twist at the end was gonna be that Mycroft's men were actually gonna shoot Magnussen, since it seemed Sherlock wanted to make it clear Mycroft would learn his secret by shouting it out loud. But now I don't quite get it: what was the point of Sherlock shouting it, if it wasn't for Mycroft's benefit?

― Tuomas, Monday, January 13, 2014 2:26 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this one

max, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 20:24 (11 months ago) Permalink

maybe sherlock shouts to let mycroft know hoping that then mycroft's men would take out magnussen and then when that didn't happen deciding he'd have to do it himself. that's a stretch. seems to me sherlock could've simply let mycroft and his men take them away (surely he would've gotten off, esp since he was working for lady shagwell or whatever) and then, having decided he was going to kill magnussen simply wait to a more opportune time. it's not like sherlock holmes couldn't figure out a way to get away w/ murder. a tidier way to clean it up might have been to have watson stand up to magnussen (toss him over a balcony maybe, something that could easily be swept under a rug ) or if you wanted something w/ punch have mary pop up and finish the job, maybe after they leave and sherlock knows but doesn't care and nobody solves it cuz (as in the original story) so many ppl had a motive. hell you could just have sherlock mention magnussen's vault is his mind palace (ugh) to mary in passing then cut to sherlock reading a paper w/ magnussen's death as the headline and sherlock does a half smile and then o what's this on the telly moriarty is alive somehow.

balls, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:01 (11 months ago) Permalink

the empty vault was symbolic

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:02 (11 months ago) Permalink

why are we in thrall to the redtops. why do we trust them as a source of meaning. they are but an empty room. wake up sheeple

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:02 (11 months ago) Permalink

i find it weird that they're doing this mind palace thing since it's a thomas harris thing. you'd think they'd want to dissociate him from popular culture's second most famous sociopath

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:04 (11 months ago) Permalink

kinda hated the mind palace stuff cuz it makes it seem that sherlock isn't esp bright or observant, he's just really good at those memory tournaments. reminds me of movies like phenomenon or something where the guy is suddenly incredibly intelligent and they demonstrate it by showing he knows the capitals of all the countries in africa.

balls, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:05 (11 months ago) Permalink

pop culture's second most famous sociopath surely tom sawyer

balls, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:06 (11 months ago) Permalink

its probably sheldon cooper but i was mainly just writing words in an order i thought sounded good

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:08 (11 months ago) Permalink

didn't realise it was a thos harris thing, just associated it with this:

http://studyplace.ccnmtl.columbia.edu/w/images/9/9c/Yates-1966-Art-of-Memory-excerpt.pdf

Fizzles, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:23 (11 months ago) Permalink

that's frances yates's the art of memory for those who don't like clicking unspecified links. follows the persistence of classical methods of mnemonics, particularly that of associating memory with place or abstract architectural structures, through into renaissance magic and thought.

Fizzles, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:28 (11 months ago) Permalink

but yes. memory less appealing than observation. capacious high-recall memory feels like it's special - we can't do it, our memories don't work like that. reasoning from observation feels like we should be able to do it and indeed can do it to a lesser extent.

Fizzles, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:34 (11 months ago) Permalink

this has always bugged me but sherlock isnt really a sociopath is he? i thought sociopaths were supposed to be quite charismatic, very good at mimicking normal human interaction, and so on. i mean you could argue that he IS all those things but i think the point is that with sociopaths they appear in general to be "normal" at all times. sherlock presents as difficult from the start; he seems more autistic than sociopathic.

max, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:37 (11 months ago) Permalink

curious how long 'actually sherlock is a monster!' has been around. the first time i can remember coming across it was mark s here and then it kinda became the norm to have sherlock as clearly understood to be some asshole weirdo instead of just incredibly smart and observant (even the recent sherlock but not really precursors to the current wave had this eg house). seems like previously any revisionism of sherlock usually just focused on drug use or they'd have it turn out that watson was actually the smart one like some remington steele situation.

balls, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:42 (11 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, Sherlock's condition is clearly Asperger's, I'm not sure why the writers keep on repeating the sociopath thing; "high functioning sociopath" is not even a real diagnosis, but "high functioning autist" fits Sherlock perfectly.

(xpost)

Tuomas, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:47 (11 months ago) Permalink

doyle vacillates in the stories, like yeah in 'study in scarlet' we encounter him beating up corpses and he doesn't know the order of the planets in the solar system but in a lot of the later ones he's just smart + forbidding

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:49 (11 months ago) Permalink

also worth noting if mb obvious that the axes along which sherlock might present as 'weird' in a late-victorian context are different to those along which he might present as 'weird' in 2010-date

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 15 January 2014 21:50 (11 months ago) Permalink

curious how long 'actually sherlock is a monster!' has been around. the first time i can remember coming across it was mark s here and then it kinda became the norm to have sherlock as clearly understood to be some asshole weirdo instead of just incredibly smart and observant (even the recent sherlock but not really precursors to the current wave had this eg house). seems like previously any revisionism of sherlock usually just focused on drug use or they'd have it turn out that watson was actually the smart one like some remington steele situation.

Well, in the Conan Doyle stories Sherlock can be rude and antisocial and "weird", but he almost always shows high moral standards. It's often hinted that he gets more pleasure in solving the crimes than bringing the guilty to justice, but IIRC it's never ever suggested justice and morality wouldn't matter to him a lot. I mean, in "The Final Problem" he's willing to sacrifice his life if that also means the worst criminal he's ever met dies with him. (Unlike in Sherlock, in the short story Moriarty never threatens the lives of his loved ones, so protecting them is not a motivation for his sacrifice, it's purely justice.) So I don't really feel the canon supports this "Sherlock is a monster" revisionism.

Maybe the revisionists feel Sherlock's moralism is just something Conan Doyle was forced to include in the stories because of the era in which he wrote, and that if he had had a free reign he would've made Sherlock more ambiguous and less heroic, so they feel they're revealing the "real" core of the character... But I dunno, morality still feels like a large part of the character to me, it rarely feels superficial or tacked-on. (One of my favourite Sherlock story is "The Yellow Face", which is all about morality, and it's also one of the few cases where Sherlock's deductions actually prove wrong.) So the "heroic" Sherlock is just as real as the "monster" one, even if the latter is more popular now. I guess people just prefer different types of protagonists these days?

(xxpost)

Tuomas, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 22:09 (11 months ago) Permalink

I think morality matters a great deal to this iteration of Sherlock though - it's more like this version tries to paint him as someone who chooses to see himself as a monster, rather than him actually being one.

There's a bit in the Irene Adler episode, where Mycroft tells Watson that Sherlock had the brain of a scientist or a philosopher but chose to be a detective instead, and then asks Watson what that says about Sherlock. we're clearly meant to see him as someone who does have a strong sense of morality and justice, even if he doesn't care about conforming to polite social norms.

Roz, Thursday, 16 January 2014 04:37 (11 months ago) Permalink

didn't realise it was a thos harris thing, just associated it with this:

http://studyplace.ccnmtl.columbia.edu/w/images/9/9c/Yates-1966-Art-of-Memory-excerpt.pdf

― Fizzles, Wednesday, January 15, 2014 9:23 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think it is 'a Harris thing' , it is something that Harris has had Lecter utilise but I think it is a much older means of structuring your memory so that you remember things.

Stevolende, Thursday, 16 January 2014 11:55 (11 months ago) Permalink

Doesn't Thomas Cromwell use such techniques in Wolf Hall?

Neil Nosepicker (Leee), Thursday, 16 January 2014 17:28 (11 months ago) Permalink

that's frances yates's the art of memory for those who don't like clicking unspecified links. follows the persistence of classical methods of mnemonics, particularly that of associating memory with place or abstract architectural structures, through into renaissance magic and thought.

― Fizzles, Wednesday, January 15, 2014 4:28 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

John Crowley works with these notions in his Aegypt-Love & Sleep-Demonomania trilogy, also

Have that yates book on my nook, one of many things I'm dying to read if I ever stop frittering

yes, i have seen the documentary (Jon Lewis), Thursday, 16 January 2014 17:38 (11 months ago) Permalink

it's excellent, jon - stop frittering. also groundbreaking if i remember rightly - finding a continuity that wasn't a post-enlightenment retrospect 'progress of thought' narrative, but an examination of the sources and the use made of them, ie magic, and power, and renaissance humanism, was revolutionary.

Fizzles, Thursday, 16 January 2014 20:57 (11 months ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

It's really bugging me where I first heard about those facades, like a few months ago. Wee they in another film or documentary prog on UK telly?

i saw it on Britain's Secret Homes a few months ago. maybe there?

friend to all animals (anky), Sunday, 2 February 2014 19:59 (10 months ago) Permalink


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