Michael Moorcock: "a man who excels at saga-making in a timeless magic world" or like the movie Yellow Submarine w/o any of the good bits

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i just finished rereading the CORUM trilogy, the only MMs to survive a cull when aged c.19: they are SHIT.

Corum is a maximum LaYMoR who only wins any battles at all because someone gave the hand of a god and the eye of another, that he can call up the undead with.
His g/f just screams and pokes her breasts about
His sidekick is a "witty dandy" whose entire shtick is a "hat tilted just so" and a small flying cat which continually saves their pitiful arses

His enemies are hopeless: Arioch, Xiombarg and Mabelode, Knight, Queen and King of Swords respectively. Arioch keeps his heart in its own unguarded room. Corum squishes it with his borrowed god's hand. Xiombarg loses her temper and enters a dimension she is not allowed to enter and is dispersed. Mabelode never even gets to face Corum, and dies offscreen: the god whose hand it is comes back, and kills everyone divine in sight, gives the eye back to his brother and disappears.

― mark s, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

"the most important successor to mervyn peake and wyndham lewis" — j. g. ballard

"a person of rare goodness and sanity" — the sun (!! this is 1971 btw so i guess the sun is not yet the sun)

― mark s, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

I doubt Moorcock thinks much of the Corum books these days.

Ah, Elric. Androgynous, albino, etc. -- the Ziggy Stardust of epic fantasy. But Bowie killed off Ziggy thoroughly, yet Moorcock still can't entirely let go.

Reread the core Jerry Cornelius books last year for the first time in ages and was struck at how utterly fragmented they are, and not in a good way. The first two are at least draped around a vague sort of plot and I still think A Cure for Cancer holds up, but I'm really not too sure about any of them as extended narratives. Good scenes and set pieces, good caricatures as characters.

My old adviser loved the End of Time series, and I do enjoy that myself. But if I had to pick a favorite, Gloriana -- his most overt Peake homage (dedicated to him too, I think), self-contained, entertaining. Dodgy as all hell, of course -- I suspect a reread these days would leave me feeling somewhat ambivalent about Quine. The Colonel Pyat series was good fun too, what I remember of Byzantium Endures.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

it's funny becuz at the time they were the only ones i particularly liked (i chucked out the runestaff series and the first elric of melnibone, plus some others i have forgotten: my best friend at school read a squillion of them)

― mark s, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

Ref. j. g. ballard and 'the sun' above, there's probably only 2 other taste gate-keepers worth worrying about here, the ia(i)ns sinclair and penman:

'It is the achievement of a master craftsman at the height of his powers. He has the energy of a Golden Age author.'

(ref. presumably 'mother london')

'...the Stevie Nicks of pulp literature.'

― ds, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

i didn't like the "eternal hero" idea, so when i realised jerry cornelius was the same as the dandy mentioned upthread, i just didn't bother pursuing it (i guess the idea of an "eternally returning" character i found irksome in the first place didn't appeal!!)

― mark s, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

I have a soft spot for his cod-Victorian ones. The Steel Czar is a great title and The War Lord Of The Air has the phrase "...to await the fearful advent of the War Lord of the Air" which was buy-on-sight stuff for me aged whatever (13 or so). The WLotA turns out to be a geezer with an airship of course.

I cannot imagine ever re-reading them, maybe the End of Time ones if I was laid up with something. All his fantasy heroes are very weedy, a conscious reaction against Conan-ism I guess.

― Tom, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

they are surprisingly whiny (well corum is)

― mark s, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

They are suffering under the weight of their cosmic destiny!

I liked how MM's publishers repackaged the whole thing in the late 80s in FOURTEEN monster volumes to try and persuade fans of gargantuan fantasy sagas that the 'Eternal Champion' stories are in any way remotely coherent. Yeah right.

― Tom, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

ha ha ha watch your ass mark s or my MAGIC SWORD will whip yer soul out quicker than u can say "boo!" A great many of the fantasy type novels were written very very quicly to raise money to keep his magazine "New Worlds" afloat. He would literally lock himlelf into a room w/ typewriter, reams ov paper & lots os whiskey, & bang one out in a weekend (ish) Many of them are a bit crap, yes. At least one has the dedication on the title page "to my creditors, who remain a constant source of inspiration" I do like the first few ones about the fellow with the jewel implanted in his forehead which will eat his BRANE if he does not obey the EV0L fux0rz who put it there. The victorian time traveller ones, as mentioned above are good as well IIRC. I liked the Jerry Cornelius boox a lot as well. I can't remember much else off the top of my head. I do remember enjoying a great number of his books a lot. He did give JG Ballard and Brian Aldiss a big lift up through his editorship of New Worlds magazine, aso he RULZ for that, right?

― Norman Phay, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

BTW budvar has blunted my typing skillz0rz. PH34R when this thread gets googled, it could make k!ll!ng J0k3 look tame indeed. Moorcock's essay "starship stormtroopers", on why nearly all SF and Fantasy is written by NAZIS is excellent as well.

― Norman Phay, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

jewel in forehead rings a bell: is that hawkmoon, in the runestaff books? i had a particular and specific reason i culled them, something in them i found actively distasteful, which i totally can't now remember

the corum books had one scene which i found i'd remembered very vividly, on the precipice at the end of the plain of dried blood

i'd forgotten he wrote them to raise money for new worlds, i guess that was cool in a way

― mark s, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

yeah what norman said pretty much. his apologia for stalinism was a cool move too i always thought.

― , Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

can this thread pls be about w.v.o. quine instead?

― Josh, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

'Behold the Man' was superfreaky blaspho stuff when I read it as a young teen. Plus the Cornelius bks were prob. my first intro to 'experimental' writing, and I dug their Ladbrooke Grove/jetsetting/Hendrix necro/spy thriller/porno etc. vibe. Honour the fragment!

― Andrew L, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

We shouldn't be fooled by the New Worlds connection. Yep, the mag included lots of strong and important writing (within its little corner), but if he had written caravan catalogues to support the mag we wouldn't feel that they were given any greater respectability by the connection, and we shouldn't make the mistake of being kind to these crappy fantasy novels either. Obviously he has written more serious and literary novels in recent years, and I for one am happy to ignore those too.

― Martin Skidmore, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

ha, yer thread got Googled... Ph34R T|-|15, L4|\/|3R5...

― Tingleberry Sparkles, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

jewel in forehead = Mad God's Amulet ???

― Sam, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

ALl the s&s stuff is utter bobbins, altho I enjoyed it greatly aged 14. However, the Cornelius stuff haunts my dreams, and although I still have problems with the plotless, disconnected stuff I love it cos it's just so damn stylish. I think the JC shorts actually work better (the entropy tango, the lives and times of JC).

― misterjones, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

To whoever posted about his essay, thanks. Found it on the net and it was an interesting read, although to some extent it seems like he's just whining that people don't agree with him. And I did prefer Niven WAY over this guy, at least until he started churning out the pot- boilers.

Bazooka Joe

― 2, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Nobody even mentioned his "Zelig with a massive cock" '20th century history' series about the Russian bloke. I think there were dandies involved there too.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 15:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

Colonel Pyat, yes. I read Byzantium Endures, it was nicely corrupt (then again I love Russian history).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 15:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

weirdly enough MM is (or used to be) v.pro andrea dworkin: dave q and tokyo rosemary to thread!!

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 15:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

That Moorcock has a cult following while Barry N. Malzberg does not is one of the great travesties of our time

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 16:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

So where's a good Malzberg starting point, then?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 16:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Destruction of the Temple

NB I last read this when young and impressionable and I could be completely wrong about it

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 16:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

Malzberg vs. Wolfe FITE, maybe?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 16:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ick. This all sounds tres Dungeons and Dragons. I hear the Cornelius stuff is pretty 'clean hands' but -- what is it with books about goblins and elves? Makes me think of beards and morris dancing for some reason.

Basically sexist question: but do any non-males dig MM?

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 16:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

I cannot trust the aesthetic choices of a man who's never read any fantasy novels. It would be like listening to ideas on beauty from a man who's never had a wank.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

I went to a reading by MM 6-7 years ago, and there were plenty of wimmin there, fwiw. From what I have seen, including the people who do live action s&s roleplaying in the forest near where I live, the whole S&S-is-men-only trope is basically rubbish. plenty of women read sf & s&s, plenty of women dig "star trek" and stuff like that etc etc.

I don't recall any goblins or elves in any moorcock boox, but my memory might be fux0r3d. I suppose elric ws a bit elfin, i dunno.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

corum's people are considered elves by humans, and dealt with accordingly (= raped and killed); there was some other ppl who were corum's ppl's ancient enemies that humans thought of as goblins (ie they raped and killed them too)

(haha ie moorcock's humans took the same line as enrique!)

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

In all honesty i can't remember a single thing about corum. Did he have red eyes, or something? A magic hand? (a magic hand. I know this b/c I just read yer orig question haha)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

When I did read Moorcock I was a Moorcock indie-ist and refused to read any of the actual Elric books - what happened in those then? (Same thing as all the others obv.)

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

i found some terrific french covers to the elric book on the interweb which suggest that at one point he went yachting on a sea of lava!! (one of them does)

sadly i am just abt to go visit my sister so cannot seek them out

corum had pointy ears and almond-shaped eyes i think

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think the elric books are just about the best ones. Them or "the war hound and the world's pain" (nb classic s&s book title cliche - "The (x) and the (y)") I remember posting this snarky thread w/r/t s&s ages ago saying i'd never read such stuff haha lol, except actually, I'd read the moorcock books ages agom, so i was full of shit (again) haha.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

I feel I have to defend S&S at the moment since a photo of me wearing a plastic breastplate and brandishing a sword is no doubt about to appear on the Interweb.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

the best idea then would be to forestall this by posting it yourself.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Sadly it is out of my hands, much as the sword should have been.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

is this stuff better than stephen donaldson, who made me gag? somehow I think it is probably both worse and better.

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 17:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

his first book about London is very sweet.

― thom west (thom w), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 20:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

I cannot trust the aesthetic choices of a man who's never read any fantasy novels. It would be like listening to ideas on beauty from a man who's never had a wank.

True, I've done neither, what can you do? Actually I might have read The Hobbit once... and it was a big load of wank. (Sorry.)

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 23 October 2003 06:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

What a lame page obviously you guys are poor uneducated fools. For example Mark is a retard who must not have read any of the Eternal Champion series outside of Corum. I'd Suggest that Mark gets a hot poker and shoves it up is gay ass since the only thing he excelles and gets excited about is "SHIT"

Mark do us all a favor, before you start preaching take a look in the mirror and find out who the real LaYMoR is you stupid retarded bastard.

― Who Really Cares, Friday, 7 November 2003 00:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

You fuck with Moorcock You fuck with ME MUTHERFUCKER!

― Timmy MCRahl, Friday, 7 November 2003 00:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

mark is a retard!

― Annouschka (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 7 November 2003 00:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

You are the best googler EVAH 'Who Really Cares'. Hats held high! I hear the NYRB is looking for a new lead reviewer -- you go to it!

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 09:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

the only thing i excelle is "shit"!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 7 November 2003 09:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

You've been rumbled.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 09:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

u excelle at everything mark!! you're the mushy bees' knees

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 7 November 2003 09:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

"PH34R when this thread gets g00gled", eh?!

no room for red hot poker b/c pointy stick covered in narky bees is already in residence.

actually reading the contents of the thread you've just googled c/d?

promoting the merits of yer fave writer by tossing around k-lame flames c/d?

(etc)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TYOUR TAKLING ABOUT PAHSMI9NA I'LL BE CAKB HWRE WHEN SOME ONE MENTIIKNBES AZIMOV MARK Y EORDS

― Morecock (Enrique), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

This could turn into the ILE's dave matthews thread.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

j34h w3ll yuo w|ll b3 l4ugh||\|g 0n teh 0th3r s|d3 0f j0r f4c3 s00n fux0r c0z 3y3 ju5+ h4x0r3d j0r c0mpu+3r!@#

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

(x-post haha)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

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