Twist endings that do/don't completely obviate the whole rest of the story

So, I saw The Usual Suspects for the first time the other night, but knowing where everything was going, and I think it really eroded the viewing experience... now, that's the whole reason for "spoiler warnings" etc, but I feel like there's a difference between a movie/book/whatever where everything that happens is a sort of puzzle-box being set up for a reveal when the twist comes along, and a story that's independently engaging and also happens to have a twist. Like, I think the big twist at the end of The Empire Strikes Back, much as you wouldn't want it spoiled, isn't really woven together with every other scene - you can enjoy the hell out of the movie whether you know it or not, and for several repeat viewings. Whereas I can't imagine seeing The Usual Suspects again. Other examples/thoughts?

i liked this piece that decried the overuse of 'backstory-rationing' in movies that spoonfeed you constant foreshadowing of a twist or revelation towards the end that pretty much the whole movie and your enjoyment of it hinges on: http://www.avclub.com/articles/hey-screenwriters-enough-with-the-backstoryrationi,33239/

fight club

does not obviate: Sixth Sense, the movie that started the whole trend, holds up remarkably well.

worst twist ever: Haute Tension - I'm big into horror & was digging it SO MUCH & then they went & just shat all over the whole thing w/ the laziest twist EVAH!! Total deal killer imo.

Yeah, The Usual Suspects is a one-viewing film. The other movie that immediately pops into mind is Identity, which was awful but pretty much the same deal: 90 minutes of set-up for one "clever" twist. And the moviegoer gets boned, hard.

I haven't re-watched the Sixth Sense since I saw it in the cinema when it came out, mostly because I'd either kick myself for not spotting the twist before I actually did, or because I'd spend the whole time going "BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE BECAUSE [omit spoiler in case there is a person left on earth who doesn't know what it is]".

Same with The Usual Suspects, actually.

In a separate version of this, I managed to watch both No Way Out and Jagged Edge three times each at least in the past when I was younger, each viewing prefaced with me and my mum discussing with each other how we knew there was a twist and we couldn't remember what it was. Then we watch it, go "oh yeah, THAT was it", then promptly forgot it again by the next time it showed up on the TV.

I remember them both now purely because of the disbelieving conversations that neither of us could remember what they were.

Neither are particularly good, btw.

the problem with the usual suspects is that there's nothing at all that could be seen as a clue to the real story going on. since it's just all made up, basically, the story could have literally been anything at all and the ending could have been exactly the same because there's no logic to it. peter greene tossing a lit cigarette in stephen baldwin's face is really the best part of that flick and it was improvised, i don't think the movie's worth a shit tbh.

"there's no... fucking... COKE!"

^best bit, apart from Benicio del Toro "zzzhelluva lotta china".

In a separate version of this, I managed to watch both No Way Out and Jagged Edge three times each at least in the past when I was younger, each viewing prefaced with me and my mum discussing with each other how we knew there was a twist and we couldn't remember what it was. Then we watch it, go "oh yeah, THAT was it", then promptly forgot it again by the next time it showed up on the TV.

I remember them both now purely because of the disbelieving conversations that neither of us could remember what they were.

Neither are particularly good, btw.

― ailsa, Saturday, December 5, 2009 9:29 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah I feel like No Way Out's twist deserved to be in a better movie.

The Usual Suspects is HELLA AWESOME if you're 13.

The Way of the Gun, that'll always be hella awesome.

I admire the way the writers of The Usual Suspects put that twist in, because it makes the movie more then twice as awesome but totally borks any chance that anyone will want to watch it twice. Kind of like those dragsters that need to have the entire engine replaced after every run because everything's shot to pieces.

does not obviate: Planet of the Apes

I will admit that Usual Suspects had a few moments that were great on their own terms, mainly the fabulous overacting by everyone involved. I love the guy in the boat freaking out like "I'm telling you it's KEYSER SOOOZAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!!" That was fun.

Don't think Fight Club ending obviates the movie at all. Also think the ending might be the shittest bit. In a Fincher frame of mind tho I reckon Se7en and to a slightly lesser extent The Game's endings probably obviate those flicks.

Yeah, actually, if there's a video out there on the Youtubes somewhere compiling all of Del Toro's scenes from The Usual Suspects, I'd probably watch that a few times.

Mulholland Drive is another toughie - it's definitely completely rewritten by its twist, but the movie along the way is so entertaining it's hard to really get up in arms about it. I seem to recall being a lot less engaged on the second viewing though...

Se7en feels like a different animal to me - like, the twist doesn't affect the integrity of the previous scenes, it's just more of an exceptionally mean, nasty thing to make the audience squirm through (in a film filled with such things). I guess it might make the movie much drearier on second viewing, but that seems like it'd be true of lots of things with less-than-happy endings? I've only seen it once though.

I dunno, rewatching Se7en made me decide it was more about a kind of redemption for Freeman's character than a kind of damnation for Pitt's. But I think it's very very difficult to make a film with a twist ending that doesn't feel pointless to re-watch. In Se7en's favour I think it's good at making you think that maybe it won't end as badly as it does, but once that's gone it's hard not to see the rest of the movie as an elaborate preparation for its denouement.

The Sade joke's still good tho.

the problem with the usual suspects is that there's nothing at all that could be seen as a clue to the real story going on. since it's just all made up, basically, the story could have literally been anything at all and the ending could have been exactly the same because there's no logic to it. peter greene tossing a lit cigarette in stephen baldwin's face is really the best part of that flick and it was improvised, i don't think the movie's worth a shit tbh. we'd still get to watch that awesome cast fuck around for 90 mins so big up that flick

― omar little, Saturday, December 5, 2009 9:31 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I guess the only problem with that argument is, you could watch an awesome cast fuck around for 90 mins in, y'know, an ordinary gangster movie and it would be just as good, arguably better without the framing narrative taking us out of the moment every ten minutes. Spacey's not bad though, and I'm always glad to see Dan Hedaya show up, so ehh.

the problem with the usual suspects is that there's nothing at all that could be seen as a clue to the real story going on. since it's just all made up, basically, the story could have literally been anything at all and the ending could have been exactly the same because there's no logic to it.

I dunno if I buy this - I mean, sure, the story could have been anything at all cause it's just some guy making shit up, but how does that make it much different from...any piece of fiction? basically if 'this is all just a lie' is enough to spoil your enjoyment of a film, must be pretty hard to enjoy anything that isn't a documentary. okay, so it's one more level deep, story within a story. for me, the movie's even more appealing after the first time cause the story that's being told is...self-aware and sorta purposeful and you're thinking about that the whole time. basically starting w/ the 2nd viewing, it's a movie that wants you to *end* your suspension of disbelief (on one level.)

that there aren't any clues until the very end is a virtue...keeps this from being a cheesy mystery. instead it's just about some guy keeping another guy distracted for 90 minutes by using a narrative that is just-convincing-enough...which is basically what films are about. (I'm sure 100 people have made this same point w/ this film / any story-within-story in a much more coherent way.)

Without the twist you wouldn't have leagues of retards asking "so what really happened?"

You guys are kind of ignoring the fun clues that you can find in the Usual Suspects too, like how Pollak is obviously the guy who stole the gun parts, because when they all get arrested he's lounging in the cell.

Best "twist" endings: Frailty, The Dark Hours, Orphan (for sheer lols), The Hours.
Worst: definitely High Tension.

usual suspects was def an awesome movie to see when i was 14, i kinda think sometimes that it and pulp fiction are responsible for my (mostly superficial) critical choices about "good movies"

Seven Pounds, although it's not so much an example of a 'twist ending' as it is an example of 'the whole movie is predicated on you dying to know what's revealed at the end, and is barely watchable even the first time'

Citizen Kane counts right?

I'm thinking that Rosebud was just a Macguffin and it wasn't very important to the movie that it turned out to be a sled.

The Sixth Sense was cornpone predated by Jacob's Ladder, Carnival of Souls, The Snows of Kilimanjaro, Siesta, An Incident at Owl Creek Bridge, and who knows what else.

Any book written by Christopher Priest.

(Based on extrapolation from the ones that I've read)

tl;dr but i agree with the premise that empire >>>> the usual suspects!

Usual Suspects was entirely boned by the audience hearing Spacey's voice in the opening scene. Overacting was fun though.

April Fool's Day sorta obviates the entire story to make there no actual horror at all. Yet I still love it

Se7en

think the idea is "a cop would uphold the law and AWWEST the guy but he succumbed to his rage".

i totally called what was in the box

Sure, that's "the idea", but the filmmakers are pretending that has any force against the audience's desire to see vengeance done: "you wanted him to keep his cool, but, oh dear!!"