a divorce thread

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and actually to be crass about it, i think it was a plus in some ways in terms of dating. because by then, i was 30, and a lot of women my age who hadn't been married were starting to think about it, and i'd already sort of proved my willingness to commit.

paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:53 (5 years ago) Permalink

"at least SOMEBODY could stand the bastard"

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:57 (5 years ago) Permalink

"you're too young to be divorced,"

I used to respond to this (I was divorced when I was 26, iirc) with, "It would appear that I was married too young."

It is not enough to love mankind – you must be able to stand (Michael White), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:59 (5 years ago) Permalink

"at least SOMEBODY could stand the bastard"

and possibly trained me to make the bed. (which wasn't actually true -- that didn't come until the current marriage.)

paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 21:07 (5 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I think that effect has helped at least one person I know -- it is definitely a big "not scared of commitment" sign

nabisco, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 21:13 (5 years ago) Permalink

Funny, I just found out today that my divorce finally went through back in December. The separation began (without relapse) in Aug '06 though... so I've processed it plenty and dated a fair amount since then.

I think the amputation analogy is quite apt. Even if I don't want her back, there's still something missing.

I waited til I was in my 30s to get married, and I meant it. Unfortunately I married someone in her 20s, and I think she felt like divorce was a very simple option. In face, she continually referred to it as a breakup.

Breakups and divorces really aren't the same thing IMO.

The good news is that even in my mid 30s, I've continued to grow a great deal in ways I likely would not have, had I stayed in that relationship. It's been a difficult few years emotionally, but I have a lot to show for it.

Nate Carson, Thursday, 12 February 2009 01:57 (5 years ago) Permalink

how long did the legal process take? i know it can vary. i was a little shocked at how fast ours went through. since it was uncontested and there was nothing for a court to resolve, it was only like 60 days. was finalized a day or two after valentine's day, which was a nice little extra dagger. (all our legal paperwork and everything was done by a lawyer friend of ours who kindly and firmly refused to take any payment.)

and yeah, once it was over, the feeling of it stayed raw for quite a while. by now it's more like well-healed scar tissue -- i can think about it without getting mad or sad or all the other things it made me. but that took some years.

paper plans (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 12 February 2009 02:40 (5 years ago) Permalink

Time heals all wounds. At least, as you said, to the scar tissue phase.

We did the paperwork ourselves, and we waited several years to do it. It would have been pretty fast if there weren't so many "i's" to dot and "t's" to cross. As it was, we finally had to go into the courthouse together and get some free assistance. After that, it apparently took about 2 weeks. I only know it's done because I called and asked.

Either way, it's an empty finale.

Nate Carson, Thursday, 12 February 2009 08:45 (5 years ago) Permalink

we were together 5 years before we got married, then married for 5.

We buy scrap gold in our shop, so a lot of the time people come in to sell their wedding bands. A lot our dated ten years ago.
It is strange to see how many younger people, compared to my age, are going through a divorce.
A divorce seems so painful, especially when kids are involved. The ties can never be completely broken cause of the kids. Everyone is dragged into it. I hope it never happens to me. But if it does, it does.

Nathalie (stevienixed), Thursday, 12 February 2009 08:59 (5 years ago) Permalink

a lot are i meant

Nathalie (stevienixed), Thursday, 12 February 2009 09:00 (5 years ago) Permalink

10 months pass...

my friend is getting divorced after being married 4 years. she told me today over gchat and i was just kind of like "ok" and didn't push for any more info. she just wanted me to know but i knew this would happen (should have sooner tbh) because i even tried to tell her before she got married i didn't think it was such a great idea (i didn't try *that* hard though, kinda rude). don't know what to do for her now though ˘\(o_º)/˘

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:25 (4 years ago) Permalink

yeah, i'm now old enough to have lived through several of my straight friends divorces and all I can say as the bystander to this is that people who are going to get married should really talk together- a lot- about what being married means to each party, and what it doesn't mean. I have now seen a mis-match of expectations about marriage and crushing disappointment wreck at least three marriages (tho happily other straight friends are able to keep on trucking). Sucks.

twice boiled cabbage is death, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:33 (4 years ago) Permalink

Breakups and divorces really aren't the same thing IMO.

I dunno, I think it depends on the nature or duration of the relationship.

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:33 (4 years ago) Permalink

harbl i think u just need to be like hey i'm here if you need anything; maybe check in with her every couple weeks unless she tells you to step off

call all destroyer, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:41 (4 years ago) Permalink

yeah we don't even live in the same state anymore so it's hard. she seemed like she just needed something to occupy her time so i'm kinda like uh, can't help u. fortunately they already lived separate because she's still in school and he works in another city. i dunno i don't really have a problem just like wow, what would i do, you know?

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:44 (4 years ago) Permalink

it happens, rite

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:44 (4 years ago) Permalink

is that why they're divorcing?

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:45 (4 years ago) Permalink

send her some flowers or a nice present imo

max, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:45 (4 years ago) Permalink

from my friends' experience - with both divorces and break ups of really long-term relationships - the things that make it the hardest are when kids or shared property (houses, businesses) are involved.

Call all Destroyer's advice is good.

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:49 (4 years ago) Permalink

i don't even know exactly why. i really didn't ask. i figured she would tell me sometime and i don't really have my own curiosity about this shit (not a gossiper? i don't know). i can guess well enough. they don't have any property either which is good! this is gonna be a breeze really

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

for you or for your friend?

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

for her! not really but a lot better than it could be

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:52 (4 years ago) Permalink

not a problem for me if i'm not making this clear. just thinkin baout things, wishing i could have more empathy sometimes

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:55 (4 years ago) Permalink

did they try seeing a therapist together? i have found it to be very helpful, but sometimes things are too far gone.

velko, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

nah i don't think it can be repaired, i think it might be for the best in the long run tbh

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:13 (4 years ago) Permalink

If they're not even living in the same area, unless they had definite plans to do so in the future, I don't see the point in being married/in a relationship.

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

well some people see points in different things i guess

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:19 (4 years ago) Permalink

yes they do, but at that point, if it were me, I'd be asking myself a bunch of questions.

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:20 (4 years ago) Permalink

i don't think distance had that much to do with it but i'm not gonna spell out all the other reasons for the internet

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:27 (4 years ago) Permalink

4 months pass...

Two of my very old good friends finalized their divorce yesterday. They were kind of my substitute parents when I moved away from home after high school to start college, both about 6 or 7 years older than I am, but always seemed far more wise than their age would dictate. I was there for the birth of their first child, spent many many hours at their house, and even sublet it from them when they moved to Denver for a couple years. A few months ago, the wife left for another guy. It wasn't sinister or anything. She wasn't sneaking around. But their relationship was clearly over. The husband had been pretty upbeat about it and going with the flow of the divorce... UNTIL TODAY. Maybe it was too soon, but the (ex) wife announced her new engagement today on Facebook and he FLIPPED THE FUCK OUT calling everyone who was congratulating her "false friends" and "inappropriate bitches".

Yeah, I concede that getting engaged the day after your divorce is final is probably a little selfish or, at the least, insensitive, but it was going to happen sooner or later.

My dilemma is that, while I still want to remain friends with the (ex) husband, it's going to be hard if he's going to be one of those guys who lashes out at people who are still friends with her as well.

How do I deal with this, ILX?

Johnny Fever, Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

Tell him you still like him, but plan to remain friends with his ex, and that while you will do your best not to have the two spheres overlap they may, and if he freaks the fuck out on you then fuck him in the ear because you will not be disrespected.

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:17 (4 years ago) Permalink

You can't be friends w/him if he puts you in the middle this way and you might as well tell him.

Il suffit de ne pas l'envier (Michael White), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:19 (4 years ago) Permalink

That is pretty tactless though, announcing that via FB the day after a divorce is finalized.

he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:20 (4 years ago) Permalink

Hope he'll eventually cool down, and if he doesn't you'll, sadly, probably have to take her or his side.

my baby's got the bans (ksh), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:21 (4 years ago) Permalink

That is pretty tactless though, announcing that via FB the day after a divorce is finalized.

Yes, it is. And dude has a right to say so but not to make his friends draw lines in the sand over it. Just because he's close to the issuse doesn't mean their other common friends have to be unforgiving about such a gaffe.

Il suffit de ne pas l'envier (Michael White), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:23 (4 years ago) Permalink

Oh I agree with your advice and he reacted horribly, but, I'm sure it has to be difficult for him and I would hope that mutual friends might also be a little understanding of the tough mental space he's in. I'm sure he'll regret some of the things he said with time.

he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:26 (4 years ago) Permalink

You can't be friends w/him if he puts you in the middle this way

Yeah, I've done all I can the past few months to stay OUT of the middle of this. I most definitely don't want to be dragged in now that they're officially not married anymore.

Johnny Fever, Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:26 (4 years ago) Permalink

If I were friendly with both of them I might congratulate her privately but I'd have a lot of trouble publicly oohing and ahhing and "liking this" on Facebook tbh. It would be insensitive.

all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:56 (4 years ago) Permalink

My dilemma is that, while I still want to remain friends with the (ex) husband, it's going to be hard if he's going to be one of those guys who lashes out at people who are still friends with her as well.

Ugh, Ive been lashing out at a couple of my friends recently because theyve befriended my ex's new lady, really fast - without apology - and its hard because he hooked up with her 2 days after saying we should break up. Nothing like a divorce, and I'm now just keeping it to myself, but I can understand the reaction. Its been impossibly hard to keep the bitterness and anger to myself. I dont know how it must be for long term marriage bustups.

Eyjafjallalalalalatrolololol (Trayce), Thursday, 13 May 2010 23:29 (4 years ago) Permalink

facebook ay?

how not to move on...

not_goodwin, Thursday, 13 May 2010 23:49 (4 years ago) Permalink

what about people who probably SHOULD get a divorce, but don't? I know a few folks who fall into that camp.

homosexual II, Friday, 14 May 2010 00:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

this brings up the whole, "Why get married in the first place?" question.

homosexual II, Friday, 14 May 2010 00:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

love.

Daniel, Esq., Friday, 14 May 2010 00:17 (4 years ago) Permalink

fear of eternal loneliness & having no one except for ilx posters to "talk" to for the rest of your life

my baby's got the bans (ksh), Friday, 14 May 2010 00:24 (4 years ago) Permalink

marriage is not a guarantee of being loved and having someone for eternity

homosexual II, Friday, 14 May 2010 00:40 (4 years ago) Permalink

you're right, it's not a guarantee.

Daniel, Esq., Friday, 14 May 2010 01:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

Tax breaks.

I kid.

he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 14 May 2010 01:13 (4 years ago) Permalink

I was engaged once. I'm pretty sure if we'd gone through it, we'd have been divorced in three months. I'm not in a rush.

It's totally for some people, though, and I'd never begrudge them the opportunity (even those who announce they're engaged the day following their divorce, no matter how shitty that is to the ex). I wish he would've been using to the separation to work out his issues and I wish she would've waited to announce TO THE WORLD (i.e. all the mutual friends, him, their children) that she's already engaged.

Johnny Fever, Friday, 14 May 2010 01:18 (4 years ago) Permalink

I was engaged once as well, mainly due to immigration reasons (partner was canadian and gonna move to Aus). That ended, and I am also thankful, cos it really wasn't the right thing to do at all.

Eyjafjallalalalalatrolololol (Trayce), Friday, 14 May 2010 01:23 (4 years ago) Permalink

The Importance of Hating Your Ex

mookieproof, Friday, 14 May 2010 02:21 (4 years ago) Permalink

fwiw having a stable parents and family b/g doesnt make a guarantee of being ok with relationships. My parents are still together, seem perfectly happy, never had any major fallings out (tho that, at times, was due to mum being a bit of a martyr and just coping with issues that came up and supressing rage marge simpson style, i suspect). Despite being surrounded by perfectly regular fam, with 2 broters married with kids, I appear to be a complete relationship fuckup and am 41 and single again.

frances boredom coconut (Trayce), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 22:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

I mean my wife just took K for a few days out of the city without me

quoted out of context...

goole, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 22:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

As a kid I remember feeling very out-of-place in that my parents were still together. And they still are - and they still totally seem to dig each other. They aren't super emotional and affectionate, which kinda skewed my perception of relationships for a while (I didn't realize until very, very recently that I need a lot of affection).

I fully plan on getting divorced one day. ;)

homosexual II, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 22:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

Nathalie, aren't you also the one who thinks that masturbation is wrong? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Either way, 'sticking it out for the kids' is NOT the best solution imo. Especially if the two parents openly despise one another.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 22:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

never said it was. it's just the example I grew up with

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 01:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

I guess I just think sometimes maybe parents could try to find a way not to openly despise each other if they weren't so attached to their personal resentments? But then I guess it's hard for me to imagine getting to that point with someone where you're totally beyond hope, because I'm lucky enough to have a connection with my wife that so far seems to survive difficulties.

bert yansh (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

homo otm the idea of married people staying together for the kids makes my skin itch.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

seriously, people, don't do that to your kids! i remember feeling like the whole world opened up when my parents got divorced, like the air had a different (better) quality. admittedly i am just generalizing from my experience, but everyone else itt is too as far as i can tell, so there.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

I can only speak of what I know from my parents, but I guess the key part that I skipped over was that 'staying together for the kids' is a good cover story. As much as they loved us, I know with almost 100% certainty that we were not why they stayed together. I sat in the car with my mum when I was 15 trying to talk her into just leaving. She knew we knew how bad it was. Part of it was that we grew up in a small town, both my parents pretty much knew everyone in the town and a lot of the reason for not getting divorced/separating was they didn't want the shame of everyone in town knowing that that had happened. Well, my Mum. Pretty much everything we went through stemmed from Mum's fear of being publically humiliated over x y or z. And the other part was just she was a very competitive person and didn't want to lose. Divorce meant that she lost. And she didn't want to lose to my Dad. From what I know of Mum, my guess is that in her mind divorce would mean that she had been wrong about Dad, and god knows she didn't want to be wrong.

Sorry for livejournaling but I just want to make sure you guys get that it's not actually really a literal pact that they made or anything.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:34 (1 year ago) Permalink

And to clarify again, she was pretty OTT during that period. Mum now and Mum then are almost two different people.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

VG i wasn't responding to you fwiw, more nathalie and Hurting. every unhappy family is its own special snowflake; i'm not saying people aren't right to pick up on destructive dating patterns in their friends' lives or whatever, just that "it's a shame because he's a really good father" doesn't have much traction from my pov--he's still going to be in his kid's life. it's going to be better for his kid not to have miserable parents being miserable around him when he gets older.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:36 (1 year ago) Permalink

Oh no I get that it wasn't aimed at me. Just weighing in longwindededly as per usual :)

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Getting on the separation train

Beatrix Kiddo (Raymond Cummings), Sunday, 29 September 2013 02:56 (9 months ago) Permalink

Sorry. It's not easy, even when it is. It's weird to me to see this thread, because a year after I started it I was getting divorced again. In retrospect I was probably channeling the anxiety of one relationship through the prism of the previous one.

So, having done it twice, all I can say is that it is a very hard thing to go through, regardless of circumstances. Some are worse than others, and there are things that can make it better -- helps a lot if no one is crazy or vindictive, and if there's still some level of empathy and not wanting to hurt each other. But for me, both times it took about a year to process and deal with. I learned a lot both times, fwiw. And ended up happier. So there's good things out there! But I know that's not much help when you're in the middle of it.

Best wishes with everything.

something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Sunday, 29 September 2013 03:34 (9 months ago) Permalink

Thanks, tipsy. Honestly, I read this whole thread last night and that made me feel a lot better about things - especially your contributions.

Beatrix Kiddo (Raymond Cummings), Sunday, 29 September 2013 20:38 (9 months ago) Permalink

4 weeks pass...

Now I'm about a week into living alone. It's gotten easier but the first few days (even as I was telecommuting) were brutal - I was talking to myself a ton, couldn't sleep, etc.

Finally have pictures on the wall and most books up so it feels more like a home, more food in the cupboards.

Beatrix Kiddo (Raymond Cummings), Sunday, 27 October 2013 11:32 (9 months ago) Permalink

Ray!! i didn't see your previous revive of this thread, feel kinda bad that we haven't talked on gchat or anything in a minute and i had no idea about all of this. hope you're doing alright with it, all things considered, i know it can't be easy when there's a child.

some dude, Sunday, 27 October 2013 11:39 (9 months ago) Permalink

i grew up with me and my brother being part of a set of six cousins on my mother's side of the family (she and her two sisters had two kids each -- only one of those three marriages is still together today). this year, the 6th of the 6 cousins got married, and the first one to get married a decade ago began divorce proceedings. we visited her in her new house a while back -- she seemed happy, is definitely better off than she was in a marriage that didn't seem very ideal. but it's still a little depressing and scary to feel like we're exiting that 'everyone you know is getting married' phase of life and slowly entering that 'wait to see which of those people gets divorced' phase.

some dude, Sunday, 27 October 2013 11:44 (9 months ago) Permalink

i found talking to myself to be pretty therapeutic, patience and indulging yourself in harmless stuff is the way to go i think

increasingly desperate demand for high (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 27 October 2013 12:19 (9 months ago) Permalink

I feel bad for anyone going through divorce, because I know it's hard. But I don't find the existence or occurrence of divorce "depressing," exactly. To me, that buys too much into the idea that marriages or relationships either fail or succeed, when life is a lot more complicated than that. I mean, some marriages are objectively awful -- abuse, addiction, adultery, whatever. But a marriage that ends can still be a good and valuable part of your life. When you're going through a divorce, it's easy and maybe inevitable to feel like you just wasted years of your life. But that's not usually true. You were fortunate enough to find and spend time with another person, and you shared two or 12 or 20 years together, that's not in itself a bad thing. I'm not saying "just remember the good parts," but there's a tendency to talk about divorce as if it negates the entire experience of the relationship, which isn't true. At this point I think of my exes more as traveling companions than anything else -- people who shared x years of my life until we parted ways. And now I'm with the best companion I've ever had, but I don't think I would know and appreciate that as deeply as I do without the other experiences.

something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Sunday, 27 October 2013 12:23 (9 months ago) Permalink

best post

little busquets made of tiki-taka (imago), Sunday, 27 October 2013 12:30 (9 months ago) Permalink

Well, listen, I can totally see and understand that this thread is first and foremost for people who have been divorced or are getting divorced and may want to keep it free of the kind of social stigma and negativity that is often projected on the experience from the outside. So if using those words here was a violation of that spirit, I apologize.

some dude, Sunday, 27 October 2013 14:46 (9 months ago) Permalink

Hell, no. I found the experience of divorce depressing and scary, also miserable, hideous, agonising and any other negative words you can throw at it, and I don't want to feel like I or anyone else can't explore those feelings itt. I agree with tipsy mothra about divorce not nec. being depressing in a general sense, however. Once you're out the other side, you can appreciate all sorts of positives in both the marriage (despite it's having ended), and the ending of the marriage.

poor fishless bastard (Zora), Sunday, 27 October 2013 15:12 (9 months ago) Permalink

Yeah exactly, and I didn't mean to say people shouldn't find it depressing and scary. It is! But it is only one part of a relationship, is I guess what I mean. And I do think that even decades after the normalization of divorce via no fault laws, there's a lot of lingering social baggage, which can be sort of summed up in the phrase "failed marriage." The idea that it's either til death or it's a "failure" is at odds with reality, which is that different relationships work for different people for different lengths of time. I still like the ideal of partners-for-life, and it's what I hope and intend for my current relationship. But from my previous relationships I have years of good and important experiences, not to mention two great kids, so I don't think of them as having failed. They were good when they were good, and they ended when they weren't anymore. I know lots and lots of divorced people, and in general I think they're as happy and fulfilled in their lives as people who have never been divorced. It is hard to go through and hard to get to the other side, but there is a lot of life both before and after. I think it's most helpful to think of it as a traumatic event, rather than any kind of verdict.

something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Sunday, 27 October 2013 15:46 (9 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, I just didn't want to sound judgy as an un-divorced person or part of an overall atmosphere of unfair received wisdom about divorce that you guys may have to deal with IRL.

some dude, Sunday, 27 October 2013 17:21 (9 months ago) Permalink

Al, it's cool. I haven't really said much about it to too many of my friends or on FB. Quiet like. It's been several weeks, and I've been living on my own for two weeks or so.

It's for the best, really, but the transition has its swings emotionally. Some hours are better than others.

And yeah, you have no idea how many "can you believe how many ppl our age are splitting" discussions I've had lately.

Beatrix Kiddo (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 31 October 2013 02:47 (8 months ago) Permalink

Tipsy: I'll think on what you said up thread, seems v wise.

Beatrix Kiddo (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 31 October 2013 02:48 (8 months ago) Permalink

And now I'm with the best companion I've ever had, but I don't think I would know and appreciate that as deeply as I do without the other experiences.

Never been married, so never been divorced. But a year ago is when I had to start a breakup with the only person I'd lived with romantically all this time, and that was a wrench. But it had to happen, otherwise we would have been even more miserable the further we went. We've each found someone new since, and just speaking for myself, this sentence here rings very, very true to me. Sending best, Ray.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 31 October 2013 02:57 (8 months ago) Permalink

Echoing Ned about that sentence ringing true. It may sound dumb, but for me it was absolutely the case that learning how to be a good partner involved just that: *learning*.

My dearest friend has had a yellowing index card on her fridge for as long as I've known her (circa 1995). On it is scribbled:

Good judgement comes from experience
Experience comes from bad judgement

quincie, Thursday, 31 October 2013 04:17 (8 months ago) Permalink


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