a divorce thread

it occurs to me that this month is the 10th anniversary of my divorce. interesting how it's still like the major demarcation of my adult life (which i guess makes sense, since it pretty neatly splits my adult life in half). i'm sure that'll change as it recedes more and more. but i looked through the various divorce-related threads and didn't find just one general all-purpose divorce discussion, so. here it is.

i don't know how many ilxors have been divorced. not too many, i'm guessing. not even that many of my friends have, since so many people our age didn't even get married until their 30s (they'll all be getting divorced in their 40s...). but i got married at 23, and divorced at 29. i'm glad it didn't spill over into my 30s, it allowed my 30th birthday to feel like a new beginning and all that. and it was, too -- in my 30s (which i'll depart later this year), i got happily remarried, had kids, have had basically nothing but good things happen. but the divorce still sort of lurks back there. i like margaret atwood's line about how it's an amputation -- you survive it, but there's a little less of you. and, i mean, people survive much worse things than divorce, i know that. and mine was relatively "amicable," as such things go -- we didn't have any kids, or property to divide (she took the car and the cats, i took the truck and the cds). but still, it fucked me up pretty good for a year or so. not anything i want to go through again. i've never felt that emotionally out of control of my life.

anyway. yes. divorce. thoughts, experiences, whatever.

so many people our age didn't even get married until their 30s (they'll all be getting divorced in their 40s...).

that's the spirit

one interesting thing to me, post-divorce, was that within a year or so i had a large social circle (from going out every night, because i didn't want to go home) who'd never met my ex-wife and in a lot of cases didn't even know i'd been married. it was nice, in a way, made it easier to move on and all that, but it also felt very weird. like they only knew this small, new, somewhat artificial version of me.

of course, eventually that version expanded and became less artificial -- became the real me -- and the whole married-life first-wife part of my story started to seem more and more distant and weird to me.

xpost:

actually a few of my later-married friends have been splitting up lately. but they all seem to making some real efforts at reconciliation. i think maybe the stakes seem higher the older you are. i was young enough that it seemed like, you know, the whole world still awaits, etc.

the strangest thing about divorce, as a sibling of someone divorced, is how the in-laws are part of your family, they get included in many of your family get-togethers, you get to know them and hopefully like a few of them, and then BAM - it all ends. I mean, some people still keep in touch with ex-in-laws but I didn't and it does feel like a death.

yeah, that was weird. especially because i got along with her parents pretty well. her mother kept in touch with me for a few years, which was nice. conversely, my parents felt sort of betrayed (the divorce was largely driven by my ex-wife). i visited them the next year and found my dad had taken almost every picture of her out of the family photo albums, like some stalinist purge. which also meant that about 10 years of my life was suddenly drastically underrepresented in the official record.

One of my best friends from college was married and divorced along a pretty similar timeline. And while I know it's emotionally wrecking on a whole different level, I just think of lots of people I know who date or live with someone over about that same term, and have things fall apart around the same time -- assuming there are no kids, I feel like a divorce around then is a similar type of thing, just to an incredibly different degree. But we tend to perceive them really, really differently, sometimes.

That's kind of nice/reassuring to hear, that it didn't take you very long at all to build a new social world afterward!

^ I feel like I'm not explaining that first though well, because it reads a bit like I'm talking out of my ass -- never mind, I guess

yeah i think divorce is much much much harder and much much worse on everyone versus a breakup

Defs has WAY different cultural connotations (from what I've seen).

xposts:

developing a new social world was absolutely crucial. if i'd holed up at home i would've spent all my time feeling sorry for myself. and a good thing about going through a breakup is you can walk into almost any bar and after a while find someone else who is too. the informal support network of barflies.

and yeah, any breakup of a long-term relationship is wrenching. that was my only really long-term relationship prior to my current one, so i can't compare what it would be like to split up after 5 years vs. divorcing after being married for 5 years. i think maybe the shock is a little greater just because of the promise explicit in marriage of staying together, seeing things through. i didn't really expect to get divorced, even though obviously i knew it was something that happened. just thought it happened to, you know, other people.

ha that was pretty much exactly my immediate response to my parents' divorce.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say they were equivalent, or anything; obviously there's a huge psychological and symbolic difference between having made that commitment and having ... not. I just remember thinking that the mechanics of this divorce weren't necessarily miles apart from the mechanics of, say, a couple I knew who'd lived together through most of their 20s and were splitting up -- which basically made me feel much better for my friend, thinking that the adjustments he'd be making to rebuild his life were ones I could wrap my head around, the same kinds of things plenty of other people I knew were doing.

well right, and as more and more people have those kinds of experiences before they get married (if they get married at all), i wonder how it affects the overall attitude to marriage and divorce. like, if you get married already having the experience and knowledge of having a long relationship end, does that make marriage seem like more of a commitment (this is going to be different), or just like another long-term relationship that may or may not last? i know for sure that having been divorced once gives me extra determination not to do it again.

(i suppose how the experience affects you depends on the individual, like everything.)

I always get the feeling it makes people more careful, yeah -- not just the pain of things ending, but the fact that ... if you've had serious long-term relationships in the past without getting married, you're maybe less likely to make that total commitment unless you're really, really confident about it? Suddenly it has to be something more than the already-serious non-marriage relationship you had in the past.

I feel like the rough thing about divorcing young would be that attitude you mentioned, where people don't yet see it as something that happens often -- did that weigh on you at all?

yeah, it totally shocked me frankly. i really thought divorce happened mostly to unhappy suburban couples in their 40s (a.k.a. my friends' parents).

plus, i'd spent my whole 20s -- you know, the casual dating years -- in this very committed relationship (we'd been together since sophomore yr of college). so i felt like most of my peers had spent all that time sort of learning a lot of things that i hadn't -- and hadn't thought i'd need to because, you know, i was beyond all that. it was like suddenly going from grad school back to 9th grade, equipped with a huge amount of distrust about whatever i thought i knew.

My ex-wife and I were together as girlfriend/boyfriend for longer than we were married so I actually tend to think of her largely as being in the same category as other ex-girlfriends.

Oh, Tipsy, I meant with other people, too -- I feel like maybe some people in their late 20s would assume there was something wrong or strange about someone their age who'd been divorced, whereas people slightly older wouldn't think of it as something that says anything major about the person involved.

xpost:

we were together 5 years before we got married, then married for 5. so it's weird, if i'm telling stories about, like, when we were in england during and after college, i always say "girlfriend," and if it's later then it's "wife."

it took a while for me to get used to just even saying "ex-wife," it seemed so melodramatic.

and yeah, as i made post-divorce friends i did get a lot of raised eyebrows when i said i'd been married. mostly just, "you're too young to be divorced," and so forth. tho i also met a few people my age with similar experiences, so i didn't feel completely freak-show.

and actually to be crass about it, i think it was a plus in some ways in terms of dating. because by then, i was 30, and a lot of women my age who hadn't been married were starting to think about it, and i'd already sort of proved my willingness to commit.

"at least SOMEBODY could stand the bastard"

"you're too young to be divorced,"

I used to respond to this (I was divorced when I was 26, iirc) with, "It would appear that I was married too young."

"at least SOMEBODY could stand the bastard"

and possibly trained me to make the bed. (which wasn't actually true -- that didn't come until the current marriage.)

Yeah, I think that effect has helped at least one person I know -- it is definitely a big "not scared of commitment" sign

Funny, I just found out today that my divorce finally went through back in December. The separation began (without relapse) in Aug '06 though... so I've processed it plenty and dated a fair amount since then.

I think the amputation analogy is quite apt. Even if I don't want her back, there's still something missing.

I waited til I was in my 30s to get married, and I meant it. Unfortunately I married someone in her 20s, and I think she felt like divorce was a very simple option. In face, she continually referred to it as a breakup.

Breakups and divorces really aren't the same thing IMO.

The good news is that even in my mid 30s, I've continued to grow a great deal in ways I likely would not have, had I stayed in that relationship. It's been a difficult few years emotionally, but I have a lot to show for it.

how long did the legal process take? i know it can vary. i was a little shocked at how fast ours went through. since it was uncontested and there was nothing for a court to resolve, it was only like 60 days. was finalized a day or two after valentine's day, which was a nice little extra dagger. (all our legal paperwork and everything was done by a lawyer friend of ours who kindly and firmly refused to take any payment.)

and yeah, once it was over, the feeling of it stayed raw for quite a while. by now it's more like well-healed scar tissue -- i can think about it without getting mad or sad or all the other things it made me. but that took some years.

Time heals all wounds. At least, as you said, to the scar tissue phase.

We did the paperwork ourselves, and we waited several years to do it. It would have been pretty fast if there weren't so many "i's" to dot and "t's" to cross. As it was, we finally had to go into the courthouse together and get some free assistance. After that, it apparently took about 2 weeks. I only know it's done because I called and asked.

Either way, it's an empty finale.

we were together 5 years before we got married, then married for 5.

We buy scrap gold in our shop, so a lot of the time people come in to sell their wedding bands. A lot our dated ten years ago.
It is strange to see how many younger people, compared to my age, are going through a divorce.
A divorce seems so painful, especially when kids are involved. The ties can never be completely broken cause of the kids. Everyone is dragged into it. I hope it never happens to me. But if it does, it does.

a lot are i meant

my friend is getting divorced after being married 4 years. she told me today over gchat and i was just kind of like "ok" and didn't push for any more info. she just wanted me to know but i knew this would happen (should have sooner tbh) because i even tried to tell her before she got married i didn't think it was such a great idea (i didn't try *that* hard though, kinda rude). don't know what to do for her now though ˘\(o_º)/˘

yeah, i'm now old enough to have lived through several of my straight friends divorces and all I can say as the bystander to this is that people who are going to get married should really talk together- a lot- about what being married means to each party, and what it doesn't mean. I have now seen a mis-match of expectations about marriage and crushing disappointment wreck at least three marriages (tho happily other straight friends are able to keep on trucking). Sucks.

Breakups and divorces really aren't the same thing IMO.

I dunno, I think it depends on the nature or duration of the relationship.

harbl i think u just need to be like hey i'm here if you need anything; maybe check in with her every couple weeks unless she tells you to step off

yeah we don't even live in the same state anymore so it's hard. she seemed like she just needed something to occupy her time so i'm kinda like uh, can't help u. fortunately they already lived separate because she's still in school and he works in another city. i dunno i don't really have a problem just like wow, what would i do, you know?

it happens, rite

is that why they're divorcing?

send her some flowers or a nice present imo

from my friends' experience - with both divorces and break ups of really long-term relationships - the things that make it the hardest are when kids or shared property (houses, businesses) are involved.

Call all Destroyer's advice is good.

i don't even know exactly why. i really didn't ask. i figured she would tell me sometime and i don't really have my own curiosity about this shit (not a gossiper? i don't know). i can guess well enough. they don't have any property either which is good! this is gonna be a breeze really

for you or for your friend?

for her! not really but a lot better than it could be

not a problem for me if i'm not making this clear. just thinkin baout things, wishing i could have more empathy sometimes

did they try seeing a therapist together? i have found it to be very helpful, but sometimes things are too far gone.

nah i don't think it can be repaired, i think it might be for the best in the long run tbh

If they're not even living in the same area, unless they had definite plans to do so in the future, I don't see the point in being married/in a relationship.

well some people see points in different things i guess

yes they do, but at that point, if it were me, I'd be asking myself a bunch of questions.

i don't think distance had that much to do with it but i'm not gonna spell out all the other reasons for the internet

One thing that amazes me, and strikes me as a complete failure of art, is the way no movie/book/song has ever adequately captured the agony, misery and horror of divorce.

The only two pieces of art that ever came close for me were season 11 of Cheers and Usher's "Papers." No other work has ever really resonated with me. It's like the great artists of our time have collectively said "even we don't want to touch this."

Liz Phair's - Divorce Song?

It has a bad rap and has crappy reviews but the story of us with bruce willis and michelle pfeiffer is weirdly accurate

Though I’d imagine it’s only watchable for people who went through something similar

One thing making this a difficult task is that people divorce for reasons unique to each relationship — the devil is in the details as they say

Accurate should be “realistic,” sorry

Take a peek at Zulawski's Possession and let me know what you think.

Toni Braxton and Babyface's "Love, Marriage & Divorce" was really good I thought.

It might be that it's just something that nobody wants to think about or re-live. But still, art has gone to uglier place (grief, etc.) pretty unflinchingly.

Season 11 of Cheers is the one that cut way too close to home for me. The way Frasier desperately cycles through all these different stances (anger, sympathy, bargaining, being the bigger man, completely breaking down) to stop the inevitable from happening was brutal to watch. But obviously that's just the sanitized, sitcom version of things. Dunno anybody wants to watch more than that.

xxpost I've never been divorced (or married) but I first saw it in the wake of a hasty breakup and thought, yup, this resonates. And it was apparently pretty directly informed by Zulawski's own divorce. It's, um, brutal.

Gonna cue up those Phair and Braxton songs. Tammy Wynette's "D-I-V-O-R-C-E" absolutely nails the tragedy, but wraps it up a little too neatly. I also give Here, My Dear a spin every now and then, but that record is so petty it's hard to listen to. It captures the anger but not the trauma.

excited/terrified to check out Possession

What about War of the Roses?

That Toni Braxton/Babyface album is exquisite.

Blood on the Tracks

^ was waiting for that

bad example but a great album nontheless

Bergman's Scenes from a Marriage is good, but agree on above that the details will matter for this subject. Also, divorce probably doesn't make the best story arc for a movie...

Shoot out the Lights

I have to say that just for the joy vs. anguish aspect, Blue Valentine cut pretty close to the bone for me.

Kramer vs Kramer?
As a child of divorce, the subject holds no entertainment value to me. I suppose there’s a measure of catharsis in there somewhere but I’d rather just go for a walk

Also, divorce probably doesn't make the best story arc for a movie...

The subject definitely doesn't sell itself, but I think there's an interesting tension in just trying to survive divorce. The daily struggles and hurdles. It's not just this passive experience, it's a ton of work and obstacles to navigate. It's an enormous trial; great movies have been written about less

i think there are several cursive albums about it, but they're not really my thing

https://media.pitchfork.com/photos/5929c138c0084474cd0c32d6/1:1/w_600/07bf23e1.jpg

xp oh yeah I totally forgot about Domestica. That album does nail it, at least those specific circumstances. Not sure everybody relates to the "marriage is a battle" angle of it all but "The Night I Lost the Will to Fight" is brutal

i've been listening to turn around a lot but not because it reminds me of my divorce

it's a great track about a crappy relationship for sure though

kind of one sided though

Domestica is a good one if you experienced a prolonged bout of combative cohabitation

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/The_Meadowlands_%28Front_Cover%29.png

Wrens' Meadowlands is a brilliant divorce/break-up album. It's got all the messiness, ugliness, elation and disillusionment of divorce/break-up, wrapped raw and unrelentingly in blinding curveballs of songs. It's killer.

yeah it's a perfect album. Never really registered the divorce angle before somehow (maybe be I used to listen to it so long ago) but every time I revisit it I'm amazed how well it's held up

Got sad to see this thread bumped, glad it was just about art.

Not having experienced it, my guess is the reason that there are so few good films about divorce is similar to the reason that there are so few good films about lung cancer.

what would you say is the cheapest divorce you can get? best case scenario, both people don't really have anything of value anyway, no children, a desire to spend less than $50 each on it, and for it to be as quick and uncomplicated as possible. asking for a friend.

look at your local courthouse's website, they likely have something in the family law section about filing an uncontested divorce. or just go to the clerk's office (may be a separate domestic/family clerk) and ask to file one. i don't know IL law but you may have to live apart for a year first though.

i mean your friend and their spouse

Joint Simplified Dissolution of Marriage, looks like minimum 6 months separation

oh for fuck's sake, my friend will say

but thank you harbl, very appreciated

divorce laws and procedures in the U.S. are VERY different depending on which state you live in

looks like the 6 months separation in IL can be used as proof of "irreconcilable differences", but it's not mandatory.

The only grounds for divorce recognized in Illinois is irreconcilable differences, which some people call no fault divorce. Illinois law defines irreconcilable differences as the “irretrievable breakdown” of a marriage. In such a case, the spouses are required to prove to the judge’s satisfaction that there is a breakdown in the marriage, that all efforts at reconciliation have failed, and that future attempts to reconcile would not be “in thebest interests of the family.”

Irreconcilable differences can be proven by showing that the parties have lived separately for at least six continuous months prior to the divorce action.

god, i hope they don't appoint incredibly nosey judges

judge: "have you tried listening to her? have you tried treating your anger as your friend?"

i'm not sure from that last sentence if you're correct in your interpretation. the clerk or the form they give you will be able to tell you for sure. here when a year was the requirement (i believe it has changed now) you had to have a witness testify that they know you and know you were separated for a year.

i looked a bit more into it and came upon this: https://www.illinoisdivorce.com/grounds-for-divorce

these seem to be the salient parts. it looks like as long as both people are in agreement, it can go pretty quickly:

Illinois no longer recognizes "grounds" for divorce. There is only one option: "irreconcilable differences." Irreconcilable differences needs little definition. Technically, to be granted a divorce, one must prove:

irreconcilable differences have caused the irretrievable breakdown of the marriage;

past efforts at reconciliation have failed, and

future efforts at reconciliation would be impracticable and not in the best interests of the family.

750 ILCS 5/401

The Six Month Separation Period: You can live together, file for divorce, finalize it the same day you file, and go back home and continue living together. The six month separation period is not a requirement -- it is an option. Living "separate and apart" for at least six months creates an irrebuttable presumption that irreconcilable differences have caused the irretrievable breakdown of the marriage.

...

Skipping the Waiting Period: If you want to get divorced NOW and don't want to wait, that's easy enough. You need only prove the three elements laid out, above. It's simple if you both agree. You may use our Quick Online Divorce service and we'll give you a script to read to the judge at your hearing; or you may hire us to represent you in court. You'll answer 20 questions; every answer will be "yes;" ( "yes . . . yes . . . yes . . . yes"); and you'll walk out divorce. It takes about ten minutes.

divorce research typo hell #666: "you'll walk out divorce."

yeah i'm just probably being a paranoid lawyer and imagining a judge being like really skeptical and asking too many questions of people who don't wait but that's because i don't like judges and you will probably sail through with one who just wants to process 100 divorces today

but that's probably a good habit for a lawyer. :)

thanks harbl!

i think i may go full tim heidecker and represent myself in court. it will be the least expensive, quickest divorce in IL history because my partner and i are still pals and we both have a deep desire to not make this complicated at all

i'll be sure to make clear to the judge that i am going for a state record. judges LOVE that shit!

i promise it will be very mundane for the judge. they also won't let you go fast because there are questions they have to ask to make sure no one is being coerced and stuff.

i did something very similar to this (in tx)... all it took was filing the appropriate forms, get my spouse to sign off on them (we were in agreement about divorcing as simply as possible), then i went and represented myself in court. the judge asked me a few questions... just double checking about our division of assets and that we sure about divorcing. it cost me little more than a morning off work to get it done.

that's good to hear! i am still going to try to beat your record, though

Crazy that I posted to this thread 8 years ago.

i received a card in the mail, signed it in front of a notary, and that was it

I did my own divorce =|

It helps that I worked in a family law firm for a year before as a paralegal. Can’t say I recommend it though. It’s like digging the grave of your marriage by yourself.

I also fucked up some fine print that resulted in my divorce getting entered in February instead of the very last day in December which added an extra year of marriage for tax purposes.

I would also advise to take a deep breath, count back from 10, and maybe you'll feel all right.