Kosovo Declares Independence From Serbia

i'm a scottish nationalist. of course i'm optimistic!

but brr, it's an optimism heavily tempered by the weight of history.

RIP East Timor ;_;

So glad that we solved all those problems by bombing them in '99.

^this

i dunno if this would have happened were it not for the 1999 intervention. i dunno if the good doctor has a personal connection to kosovo or albania, but i have no idea what this declaration of 'independence' means, except in terms of europe vs russia power-politics.

My local bar is run by an awesome Kosovar and is the official meeting place for Kosovars in the city so it's tempting to join in the enthusiasm, but, really, this is pretty awful news. At a period where policy is being played out on a regional level, the continuing proliferation of micro-states, esp. in Europe, is pretty depressing.

I am pleased that people in Pristina seem so happy, and it's kind of nice to see an outburst of pro-American feeling for a change. But I fear that no good will come of this - the Serbs feel constantly humiliated and they have long memories. The idea that this is a just punishment for Serbia I don't like. A state isn't a right or a reward, it's the organisation that monopolises control over a territory, and whatever has been declared today isn't it. I don't see an enlightened Kosovar entity emerging here. It would have been better to muddle through until both Serbia and Kosovo could be subsumed into the EU, I think. The issue wouldn't have gone away, but it might have mattered less in time.

Mafia-run puppet state/military base of western empire. Typical divide-and-conquer strategy against those not within the empire (Serbia, Russia). Lots of weirdness involving relationship between CIA-backed KLA and Osama bin Laden. Look forward to more Russia/EU+US tension, possible ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, etc etc

From the Beeb:

Limitations of independence

The declaration approved by Kosovo's parliament contains limitations on Kosovan independence as outlined in Mr Ahtisaari's plan.

Kosovo, or part of it, cannot join any other country. It will be supervised by an international presence. Its armed forces will be limited and it will make strong provisions for Serb minority protection.

In addition to this, they said on NPR that the EU will have the ability to strike down any piece of legislation deemed undemocratic. It seems they are really taking steps to make sure that this doesn't spin off-course, at least internally.

I spent a good portion of the last year living in Belgrade, and I really can't see this decision ending well. It is yet another reason for many Serbs to feel (partly justifiably) victimised by the west. This will just drive what is right now a reasonably stable and moderate democracy back towards extremism, and a nationalist ruled Serbia with a weak but independent Kosovo next door will almost certainly end in bloodshed of some kind.

I feel that the only real way to resolve this issue was to stop treating the Serbs as pariahs and encourage them along the path of moderate politics and integration with the EU that they have followed for the last few years. That may still be possible, but it will be much harder.

Also, this growing idea that any ethnically/linguistically homogeneous minority can only strive in its own national state needs to stop.

yeah but when you're an homogeneous minority group in the balkans it's just kind of the thing to do.

foreign powers stake their claim in the matter.

Apparently Serbia's government is threatening to suspend diplomatic relations with anyone who recognises Kosova. And they might cancel their EU accession process. OMG I am so frightened.

My real fear is for the Eurovision.

Also, this growing idea that any ethnically/linguistically homogeneous minority can only strive in its own national state needs to stop.

you are right, this is the path of madness, but I think in this case the argument is that Serbia effectively alienated itself from Kosova by repeatedly smashing it up and oppressing its people. I will wait and see whether this interesting new principle of international law is applied elsewhere, but being realistic it is hard to see how Kosova could have been reintegrated into the Serbian state.

yah they are breaking off from serbia here you can hardly blame them right.

lol further balkanization of the balkans.

yeah but when you're an homogeneous minority group in the balkans it's just kind of the thing to do.

there is a certain truth to this, but not all countries in the Balkans, or even the former Yugoslavia, are ethnically homogenous.

Serbia - significant minority of ethnic Hungarians (who remain placid and reasonably reconciled to the Serbian state, as far as I can make out). Serbia also has the usual Roma, Jewish, and some other funny minorities.

Macedonia - significant minority of ethnic Albanians. While the country looked like it might blow up a couple of years ago, it seems to have managed to stay together.

Bosnia-Herzegovina - it remains a mini-Yugoslavia, albeit one completely cantonised internally, and no one could really say that BH is anything other than a lolstate.

I understand that Serbians and Montenegrans also live on both sides of their country's border.

One interesting thing I have heard about the former Yugoslavia is that market forces mean that Croatia is re-acquiring a Serbian minority, which is nice.

yah they are breaking off from serbia here you can hardly blame them right.

I think they are following the "see you around suckers" model of secesison that Montenegro pioneered.

Mafia-run puppet state/military base of western empire. Typical divide-and-conquer strategy against those not within the empire (Serbia, Russia). Lots of weirdness involving relationship between CIA-backed KLA and Osama bin Laden. Look forward to more Russia/EU+US tension, possible ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, etc etc

-- Gavin, Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:08 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

oh boo-hoo poor russia and serbia ;_;

serbians and montenegrins have been pretty closely linked over the years though?

and vojvodina may have hungarian minority but is majorly serb, its a pretty different case to kosovo!

I'm not saying it isn't; I was just correcting the idea that the Balkans consists of ethnically homogenous microstates.

Until Montenegros independence it was a pretty good example of a potential microstate that seemed ok with being part of a larger whole. vojvodina seems kind of a different kettle of fish (closer to the hungarian minority in western romania - both seem, as far as i know at least, pretty ok with status quo?)

From what I gathered during about a month spent in the Balkans, ethnic Serbs, Montenegrans, Croatians and Bosnians are from exactly the same stock. Even their languages are remarkably similar, more like dialects thsn actual separate tongues. There is a lot of worrying nationalism in that part of the world, much of it founded on percieved differences that aren't really there.

oh boo-hoo poor russia and serbia ;_;

Right, further alienating Serbia and Russia is really what we need in Europe right now.

I understand that after what went on 10 years ago, it was pretty difficult to expect Kosovars to agree in any way to rejoin a Yugoslavia that by 2008, everybody had already left. On the other hand, Europeans and Americans trying to portray this as the victory of freedom and self-determination are really setting themselves up for a lot of future headaches. Hello Republics of Transnistria and Abkhazian. Hello Flanders and Wallonia. Let's wait 10 years and even these tiny states won't be homogeneous enough and will have to be broken further down...

Coming in 2015: the United Empire of Baaderonixa (size: 1 flat; population: 1.)

Stuff like this is one of Woodrow Wilson's more pernicious legacies (among others).

Even their languages are remarkably similar, more like dialects thsn actual separate tongues.

I know all about the former Yugoslavia. They all speak Serbo-Croat, but pretend to have different languages. The Kosovars do at least speak a different language to their Slavic neighbours.

Hello Flanders and Wallonia.

I suspect that Belgium will stand or fall regardless of what happens in Kosovo.

the u.s., britain and france have now recognized kosovo as an independent state

it would have been nice if they'd done the same with the elected spanish govt of 1936; we might have avoided a little thing called fascist genocide but eh you know, can't win em all

Yeah, Stanley Baldwin and his cabinet really dropped the ball on that one. I won't be voting for those jokers again.

'lolstate'

Australia recognlsed Kosovo too. Now I have to buy new atlases again.

it would have been nice if they'd done the same with the elected spanish govt of 1936; we might have avoided a little thing called fascist genocide but eh you know, can't win em all

-- Tracer Hand, Monday, February 18, 2008 6:19 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Link

what the hell kind of parallel is this?

i don't know nearly enough about the region to snark appropriately one way or another, but the level of hostility to baby Kosovo is a little strange on its face. self determination is a bitch, huh? the country is called "Serbia," and they're not Serbs, so, what's the problem?

why are "microstates" a problem, anyway. states...that are small! oh no!

I don't get this either. Serbs worldwide are claiming to be devastated by this. Is it because Serbs feel they and Kosovars are ethnically the same group?

Because the idea that every ethnic faction deserves self-determination as an independent state, taken to its extreme, would result in a lot of microstates that don't have diverse enough resources for their tiny economies to be stable, and don't necessarily have the population or resources to govern or protect themselves adequately -- beyond which the independence of the new state is not guaranteed to do anything to lessen whatever tensions or violence led it to be created, and may even exacerbate them. (Eritrea and Ethiopia, for instance, have been either at war or working to undermine one another ever since Eritrea's independence.)

Less practically, but maybe more importantly, I think they bum some of us out because they represent a loss of faith in the ideal of working pluralistic societies -- that at some point of tension or violence we basically give up and decide that a given ethnically diverse nation-state is just not plausible and it's some kind of positive development to just throw borders around everyone.

That was an x-post, and not at all specific to this -- just outlining why some people do not see it as an unmitigated good when a given group seizes the self-determination flag and goes independent.

(P.S. None of that is meant to minimize or deny the fact that plenty of groups and ethnic minorities are ridiculously ill-served, exploited, or ignored by the central governments they're ostensibly a part of, and there is every reason for them to hope that autonomy and self-determination will make things a hell of a lot better)

I don't get this either. Serbs worldwide are claiming to be devastated by this. Is it because Serbs feel they and Kosovars are ethnically the same group?

No, its because Kosovo is the historic heart of Serbia. It's was the centre of their medieval kingdom, and it contains the most important religious sites to the Serbian Orthodox church.

Whether that is a good reason to stake a claim over an area is obviously debatable, but the reaction is understandable.

Ah cool, thanks.

i know this might be an unpopular and even controversial opinion but i remember noticing while watching ethnic albanians flee kosovo a decade ago how much better dressed and generally more put together they were than the serbs. so this is really more of a sartorial conflict. albanians have superior dress sense and the serbs are haters. theres no reason to believe they can share the same country. viva kosova!

yes, like poor, scrubby monaco? i don't think the size or population of a country has to directly determine what its economy works like or how well the country is administered.

i agree on the depressing nature of ethnic cantonments, but nabs i think you go a step too far to say it "represent(s) a loss of faith in the ideal of working pluralistic societies" -- clearly the kosovars never had this faith to lose, and the serbs, yeah well right. i don't think anyone in the region really gives a fuck what bums western liberals out.

xps

Yeah, I'm sure Kosovo is gearing itself to be the new Monaco of the Adriatic.

As already said, I think everybody knows that there was no real alternative to this, but there's definitely a wider trend emerging of "losing faith in pluralistic societies" which is kinda depressing in this day and age.

plz describe wider trend

A few old western-European tiny-states and Asian service-and-finance tiny-nations are really no competition for the loads of insurgent ethnic minorities who are insurgent largely because they are undeveloped and left pushed out to land no one would relish pulling a full economy out of! The closest we'll get here is various ethnic minorities being brutalized or pushed off their land because someone found a little oil underneath. Size or population don't directly determine economy or administration, but they make a difference, especially in the vast majority of the world where you're not dealing with a ton of skilled labor or service-sector economies, and it's oil or diamonds or a cash crop or nothing.

Plus this'll sound juvenile but I don't care if anyone doesn't care etc. -- I can be bummed out regardless -- and what I'm talking about is a MUCH larger thing where western powers tend to take the position of encouraging self-determination for any ill-served group, which is inspiring and convenient in the short run, but isn't a principle I'm sure will be all that suitable or helpful as time goes by!

bu but nabisco...

http://californiaconservative.org/images/_iraq%20purple%20fingers.jpg

I mean, we champion self-determination because it is a practical and convenient solution to conflict, sometimes seemingly the only practical solution (and also because it gives us more levers to promote our own interests) -- I'm not 100% opposed to that, necessarily, but as an ongoing tactic I'm not sure it accomplishes everything it wants to in the long term, and I worry that it promotes self-determination in a slippery-slope way, as a kind of ethnic right. Whereas we have yet to find good ways to promote pluralism

oh boo-hoo poor russia and serbia ;_;

^^^this

let's play defcon!

what I'm talking about is a MUCH larger thing where western powers tend to take the position of encouraging self-determination for any ill-served group, which is inspiring and convenient in the short run, but isn't a principle I'm sure will be all that suitable or helpful as time goes by

He was mentioned upthread, but Woodrow Wilson should put a word in. Didn't the various 1919 arrangements teach us that self-determination is a nugatory virtue without infrastructure and other, more powerful interests keeping a sharp eye on your natural resources.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7251802.stm

Serbia has recalled its ambassador from Washington in protest at US recognition of Kosovo's independence, saying the US has "violated international law".

US in "violates international law" shocker

Serbia is hardly a neutral party in this.

(Which isn't to say the US is, either)

An interesting analysis from Timothy Garton Ash (writing in the LA Times):

The Kosovo precedent

You know, if I was a Serb in Kosova I might think "mmmmm, sundered from my Serbian fellows. But on the other hand, on the fast track to EU membership, unlike those losers". So it's not all bad for them.

yah they'll be chowing down on EU pork pretty soon in kosovo.

NOM NOM NOM

tim g-a: "For now, there will be a paroxysm of anger and mourning. But then Serbia has a choice: sulk for decades in impotent resentment, or take the European road to national reconstruction."

love that "for now," the assumption that this is just a hissy fit. he's acting like there are such things as "sovereign states" in this passage, as if serbia, a small state, alone, will be impotent. it's yet another source of tension w. russia for the EU/US.

Fuck the Russians, there'll be tension with them anyway.

I speak as someone who has just been turned down by my country's diplomatic corps.

yah they'll be chowing down on EU pork pretty soon in kosovo.

Dude they're Muslim.

i know right

Not very

Oh boy:

Serb rioters broke into the U.S. Embassy today and set fire to an office after a massive protest against Kosovo's independence that drew an estimated 150,000 people

o dear

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/02/21/world/22109680.JPG

my love is like a powder keg that's givin off sparks
i really need you tonight
forever's gonna start tonight
forever's gonna start tonight

Dude they're Muslim

only nominally. When it kicked off in the Balkans in the early nineties, I remember people in the eastern parts of the (then not quite) former Yougoslavia being described as "beer drinking Muslims".

well, they were muslim enough for the serbs, right?

Mitrovica knows how to party
Pri-istina knows how to party

we in that balkan state with the bomb-ass enclave
the place where you never find the bunker empty

been in the game for ten years makin hoo ha
ever since serbs was wearin kevlar

nrq the prob was ethnic nationalism more than religious bigotry

(aesop-rockish rejoinder that rhymes with the above)

are those two things are easily separable? i realize it wasn't a "doctrinal" beef with islam.

are

are they easily separable? er i don't know. probably not? depends?

from another forum:

Just saw a disturbing image in paper. Free beer was being offered on indpendence eve. So they are not practicing mUslims?

--------------------------------------------------------

Majority not. I would say, Ramadan and Eid muslims. "I drink beer but I don't eat pork cause that's haram yo". Alhamdulilah though after the war, a lot of them have started practicing Islam and more and more are getting back to their religion insha'allah. You see lots of bearded brothers.

You really wouldn't know Bosnia was a Muslim country on a Friday night in downtown Sarajevo. I did a tour of the city, and our guide told us that she considered herself Muslim, but loved drinking, taking drugs nd having sex. I imagine the average metropolitan Kosovan's attitude towards religion is somewhat similar.

Wow, imagine if there were other religions where people were adherents who didn't follow every tenet of their faith.

imagine other tours where your guide tells you how much she loves having sex

It is sadly a little more surprising with Muslims though, because of the general media portrayal of them.

xpost - yeah, she was a ridiculous flirt as well.

yes, this is all true. (including the bit about kosovo getting "more muslim" since 1999 -- mosque-building and whatnot.) i don't really know what you mean by "a muslim country" -- that covers everything from turkey to afghanistan.

all this is sort of moot from the serbian perspective because their beef isn't a western-style multicultural "issue" thing to do with dietary habits, mores, etc. those change rapidly anyway, as they have in the UK quite a bit since the '70s. at the same time it's not quite accurate to say it has nothing to do with "religion" and is an "ethnic" issue -- not sure what that even means tbh.

1389?

When it kicked off in the Balkans in the early nineties, I remember people in the eastern parts of the (then not quite) former Yougoslavia being described as "beer drinking Muslims".

there are mysterious very religious Sufi Muslims in the former Yugoslavia (possibly including in particular Serbia) where they see the bouze as in no way being in conflict with their religion. A friend who did certain political work in that part of the world mentioned how this Muslim cleric guy he knew would always make a point of cracking open the wine at every available opportunity.

Imagine how fond of Kosova the Serbs would be if they had actually won that stupid battle.

kosovo getting "more muslim" since 1999 -- mosque-building and whatnot

The money you pay for oil, this is where it ends up. This and high-class call girls.

and indoor ski-slopes.

not those really prickly ones either, with actual "snow".

But guys free beer! Best secession ever.

this is only peripherally related, but when I saw the story just now about a B-2 Stealth Bomber crashing in Guam, I was reminded of when the Serbs shot one down and there was a news photo of a Serb with a sign that said "Sorry, we didn't see it!"

Narrow escape for the people of Serbia, who have surely suffered enough

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7285322.stm

Serbia's PM Kostunica stands down

Serbia's Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica has announced his resignation and called for new elections.

The decision follows his failure to get his cabinet to reject closer ties with the European Union in the wake of Kosovo's declaration of independence.

arf at bjork zing

Not good:

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-42701712?__twitter_impression=true

I'm sure Tony B will be along to poor oil on the troubled waters soon enough

Not good at all. Though the revive would've been about Russia apparently training mercenaries backing Serbian separatists. Which, if true, also is not good.

*thought

#Serbia government statement in 2017 on slain politician Oliver Ivanovic: "if you vote Oliver Ivanovic, you vote for destruction of Serbian unity in Kosovo, and clearly, you vote against keeping the organic connection between state of Serbia with Serbian people in province"

— Petrit Selimi (@Petrit) January 16, 2018

Ex-FM of Kosovo reminding everyone of what the Serbian government was saying about Ivanovic when he was alive. Lots of apecu

... speculation that the Serbian government could have been involved but nobody knows anything yet.

Dozens of guys, and I mean dozens, in cars racing about waving Albanian flags in my neighbourhood - it's like a convoy. Apparently it was Albania's national day... yesterday.

it feels so weird to me that i started this thread - very much not in character for the kind of ILXing i would go on to do in later years

Did you hear the one about....

🇽🇰 A Serb and an Albanian were arrested today in Kosovo on suspicion of marijuana possession after an amount of the drug was found in the vehicle they were traveling in.

— kos_data (@kos_data) October 14, 2023