Cronenberg's Eastern Promises Spoiler Thread

I was just dwnlding this.

ha, so why did you read the spoiler thread?

If he's been feeding the police really worthwhile info, it'd be hard for him to hold any real power, wouldn't it? He might use his position to feed the police info about other families, but I don't see how he hasn't come up against the end of any vaguely-defined mission.

His past is as interesting as his future, I think. Did he get the tats and make up a past to infiltrate the mob, or was he a legitimately hard dude? He did fuck a minor right there in the movie, when push came to shove.

I think that it's pretty clear he doesn't have what it takes to be the real boss: He helped the prostitute escape, he didn't kill the uncle, and so on. I mean, he's the boss, but I think he's still with the police.

There's some kind of symbolism with the worry beads at the end, tho, which I didn't quite figure out. The only other scene I remember them in is when he got the stars.

Right, that was what my friends argued. But maybe he only lets the prostitute escape to make clear his worth to the police, while doing nothing to really endanger the prostitution operation, and he doesn't kill the uncle for two reasons - because he needs Anna's trust so he can get the baby, and because he can't murder someone as long as he's an undercover cop. Everything he does seems to have a double, if not triple meaning.

There's also something sinister in the way he manipulates Kiril, even using Kiril's homosexuality to his advantage.

Make clear his worth to the police? I don't buy it. That argument works only if he's a snitch, and he's definitely an infiltrator.

I love a movie with all kinds of enticing open ends and beginnings.

Granted, I don't know anything legitimately about international police work, but it seems to me that if he's in deep undercover, he wouldn't be in touch with the police that often. He would, of necessity, have to be a lone operative, doing whatever it took.

I think he seriously wanted to make boss, maybe because he feels he could do some good from that position or maybe just because he likes the power. But what a sweet position to be in - a mob boss with a "Get Out of Jail Free" card from Scotland Yard.

And I think he honestly felt sorry for Kirill, maybe even really liked him. Used him, for sure, but there was a bond between them. Definitely a bond.

Ok didn't realize it was a spoiler thread, I'll be back.

It did seem that the film's end left it quite fertile for a sequel.

Make clear his worth to the police? I don't buy it. That argument works only if he's a snitch, and he's definitely an infiltrator.

"make clear his worth" is not exactly the right way to word what I mean. I more mean that as an infiltrator he needs to feed them information, and that was a way to "do his job" without really causing the organization problems.

I don't think a sequel would be very interesting - the whole crux of the movie is the character's ambiguity. Even if it is kind of implied that he's become the boss, I don't know that we're supposed to be sure.

he appears to be a police informer. that is what I understood.

Oh... and the worry beads...

He was playing with those throughout. They're prison beads, made out of melted-down plastic lighters. Another indication that he was actually in prison.

Maybe recruited out of prison when the USSR fell?

Terry Gross's interview with Cronenberg and Mortensen. I'm not a huge fan of Terry Gross, but this show was interesting enough to get me to the theater.

Part of the reason I want to believe my version is that the other one is too neat - the movie just throws it in your face that he's an informer, and if there were nothing more to it, that moment would kind of be the end of the movie's dramatic power.

Just saw it tonight... Here's my take: The scene at the end of the movie he is sitting at a table in the restaurant, and you hear Tatiyana's voice saying something to the effect of she came to London to get away from London and for opportunity (echoing what Viggo tells Naomi Watts about the baby, that she'd be better off in London). That's kind of where the title of the movie comes from: the promise of going east.

But the thing is that Viggo did the same thing as the young mother, he "sold himself out" to the police because he wanted to escape and that was his only route. It's not that he is playing Scotland Yard, it's that he's caught in the bind as well. You have the perfect, nuclear family at the end of the film with mother, father and child, but they are still completely divided -- so at the end it's just Naomi Watts and child alone. Plus, Viggo "saves" the prostitute and the uncle because he can. I thought the point was that on some level he is an altruistic person trying to clean things up. Also explains how he says that his job is to protect the son.

Other thing I saw was that the gruesome fight scene in the showers is a metaphor for birth: pain, nakedness, sterile tile, etc.

Anyway, I thought this was really good, I think I liked it better than History of Violence. Only complaint was that Naomi Watts seemed a bit wooden, especially compared to the rest of the cast, which was fantastic.

I meant "get away from Russia" up there

Naomi Watts is totally expendable here.

I thought it would have been best for the plot, and particularly for cementing whatever the director is trying to tell us about Viggo's character, if the nuclear family at the end didn't feel so forced. This would have been much better if there was no love story, if there was only a hint but no real possibility of it ever occurring due to the wildly different parralel worlds that those two inhabit.

Also, unsurprisingly, the mobsters felt cartoonish, and that was not helped by them saying a phrase in broken Russian, then immediately translating in broken English.

What nuclear family? She's a single woman raising an adopted kid in her mom's house.

I agree with the above regarding Viggo def. being 100% cop inclined. I had no idea he was undercover till the big reveal and feel like they showed him time and time again doing the ethically correct thing. If he was playing the cop angle just to become boss, I don't think the would've dwelled on all that so much.

nuclear family --> symbolically in the scene where Viggo and Naomi kiss after they save the kid

I agree he's still with the cops. I figured he wanted to become boss to maybe take down the heroin suppliers in Kabul.

I had no idea he was undercover till the big reveal and feel like they showed him time and time again doing the ethically correct thing

I knew he was undercover as soon as the cop raided the prostitution den and came looking for the particular prostitute that Nikolai slept with.

Again, I think the fact that he always appears to be doing the "ethically correct" thing could be read more than one way, because all of those things also further his interests both as a cop and as a guy who wants to become boss. If you assume that he is really trying to become boss, and that he's using his position as an undercover to get there, all of his actions still makes sense in light of that goal. Like I said, it's possible he doesn't kill the uncle because he can't as long as he's an undercover, and because he needs to maintain Anna's trust, since he needs the baby so he can get Semyon arrested.

Don't forget that he also removes the wallet of a dead man and then seems to have no qualms about cutting off the corpse's fingers. And he's a pretty brutal and unflinching fighter, even for someone acting in self defense.

BTW, totally unrelated to that, my wife pointed out something that I missed at first - the whole reason Semyon "makes" Nikolai is to set him up to be killed - the tattoos are what makes Azim mistake Nikolai for Kiril.

If only they had bothered to change Naomi Watts' clothes more than once or twice (at the end, when she was wearing her "motherly" shirtwaist) I would say that it was as perfect as I could expect it to be.

While I picked up on the whole double-cross Semyon pulls on Nikolai -- remember Semyon asked Azim whether they had seen Kirill's face -- I was unsure (as you all seem to be as well) what N's intentions are as boss at the end of the movie.

But my real question is this:
if I wanted to read book/s like this movie, who writes them?

It has all the elements i want in a book right now: international intrigue, criminal activity, well-drawn characters, plot (this is important), a combination of humanity/brutality (this is important too).

...but i have no idea how to look for this. Also, naturally, looking for informative, well-written books about Russian mafiya as well.

Any recs are much appreciated.

the whole reason Semyon "makes" Nikolai is to set him up to be killed - the tattoos are what makes Azim mistake Nikolai for Kiril.

how did you get he was a cop early on but miss this? It's a major plot point that'd discussed by Nikolai and Kiril in the ending.

When they mention that the cops came for the specific prostitute, I thought maybe Nikolai had anonymously reported the place/given her name. I knew he was responsible, just thought he was trying to save her, not necessarily as a cop yet.

I just equated the good deeds, prostitute, etc. with an internal struggle - trying to be a decent man in that world. Being an informer didn't occur to me because it is so standard for underworld movies - but it worked here. Maybe it's the way he uses Kirill at the canal/pier/whatever you call it.

Clearly he was with the cops at the end - his rejoinder to being pulled out of the country by Scotland Yard is that he's about to become the big man, the equivalent of the FBI turning John Gotti.

No, if I remember correctly he tells Scotland Yard he doesn't want to be pulled out because he's about to get the stars - the reveal scene happens before he's made. And I took this to mean that the *real* reason he didn't want to be pulled was that he had a shot at becoming the boss.

Sorry, no, it happened after he got the stars.

But the basic point is the same. He's telling Scotland Yard not to pull him out because he now has the stars, which gives him the chance to be "boss," i.e. he can be of great value to the operation. OTOH, maybe he doesn't want to be pulled because he actually does want to become the boss.

There's really no indication at all that he desires the power outside of his undercover job. If he did, he wouldn't do things like spring that prostitute - that only sets him up for suspicion.

he springs the prostitute because it's part of his undercover job

Yes.
But if his loyalty were to himself and a desire to seize the throne, rather than the job, then it would make no sense for him to do that. He wasn't under orders to free her, no one he's reporting to knew about her - he did it because he's not really part of the criminal caste.

Fair enough. I probably need to see this again. But I do think a lot of the film is about his duality, and perhaps in the last scene he's merely pondering the implications of how far he's gotten in the organization and feels some thrill at the power he's gained even if it's for the sake of the police. I think the film wants to question the idea of his character having a "good essential nature," and whether there is such a thing.

"Other thing I saw was that the gruesome fight scene in the showers is a metaphor for"... hidden (?!) homosexuality.
is viggo ("i'm now at the zone") straight? bi? gay? un-sexual?

in the sequel that may come, viggo and kiril will be fuck-bodies, so viggo will gain the ultimate,solitude control of the mob..

the tattoos are what makes Azim mistake Nikolai for Kiril.

it's what makes the vengeful chechen brothers mistake him for kiril. azim knows the difference and is instrumental in setting nikolai up. the sight of him as he frantically struggled to get his clothes back on before nikolai suspected something and came charging out was really (blackly) humorous. he looked so tiny, foolish, bald, and undignified.

what about the security clearance needed to see nikolai in hospital after the attack? it seemed like the scotland yard inspector was totally surprised by it, which made me think that nikolai is more than a run of the mill undercover cop. i suppose it could also have been due to the nature of the crime, but it did make me wonder. if he were a high-level russian operative, that would add another layer to his amusement over anna's uncle's blustering claims to have been kgb once upon a time.

I think the real giveaway is in the scene before he gets the tattoos, where he has to renounce his family and allegiances. We're meant to understand that Nikolai has his own allegiances and moral code throughout the film, although it's never tied to the fact that he's a police informant until the end -- I just had the idea that he was a loyal thug within boundaries, but that he kept his own moral code.

So the renouncement scene, while he comes off very hard and disconnected, seems somewhat illegitimate because we've seen him show his own initiative in (presumably) setting up that police raid. I think that he did make it through the Russian prison system, and that he has more personal reasons for taking down the mob than the fact that he's undercover.

Think the FSB health plan covers tattoo removal?

id say he's ex-kgb which explains his totally badassness and general moral ambiguity.

def not an informant - he's some sort of cop.

i'd say that he outranks the english policeman that he reports to.

yeah maybe or it could just be that guy has no sway over him because theyre from different organizations in different countries

and you know because hes such an incredible badass

different organizations that carry different weight. i guess that's what i meant - like russian secret service op vs scotland yard inspector.

also as far as the kgb angle he asks naomi watts all interested like if her uncle was really in the kgb - and then later refers to him as "old-school" implying that yes in fact he was in the kgb

xp- the scotland yard guy did seem to be in contact w/ someone who had the power to order nikolai off the case

yeah which he was abt to do until he SAW THE TATOOS and was all awww shit it is so on

this movie was so fucking sweet btw

i'm sure scotland yard guy was in contact w/ russian superiors. i just thought that nikolai was in a position of authority as well and wasn't some junior level recruit.

But they have to do a third. You know, just one more really violent but incredibly well crafted movie, so it can be a "trilogy".

Fie! Fie on trilogies! Fie on quartologies and quintopelies and sextepelies and whatever bazillionth number Robert Jordan was up to before he died.

But seriously... It was thrilling that there was no sequel to HOV, and I hope the same holds true for EP. The pleasure and pain of working out your own vision of the characters' futures is a large part of why those movies work, to me.

did you guys really think this movie was that good? i liked some of it but i didn't find it as endlessly fascinating as the rest of the posters on this thread. and the diary voiceover stuff was brutal.

i mean it's an ok undercover thriller and the fight scene is great but it's not really that special!

I wish it was out on dvd already, it would solve some of my what-to-get-the-kids-for-xmas braindeadness.

I think it is out on DVD. This movie is fucking good but I'm a sucker for Cronenberg so I'm biased.

"i mean it's an ok undercover thriller and the fight scene is great but it's not really that special!"

Define "special"? It's a solidly entertaining well put together film! That's pretty special in this day and age.

My socks were KNOCKED OFF!

Define "special"? It's a solidly entertaining well put together film! That's pretty special in this day and age.

-- Alex in SF, Monday, December 24, 2007 7:43 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i just thought it was way more of a conventional thriller than i'd been led to expect and that there was some really weak stuff in it. like i said, the diary VO, the terrible scenes at home with naomi watts' family... even the reveal that vigo is undercover, which made his character so much less interesting to me.

I saw it on DVD last night. Fantastic film. I like the ambiguity and loose ends left at the end of Cronenberg's recent movies.

what loose ends?

"i just thought it was way more of a conventional thriller than i'd been led to expect and that there was some really weak stuff in it."

That's a fair cop. I mean it's nothing amazing novel or anything. I didn't mind the Naomi Watts when she's at home thing, but the reveal is a bit poorly handled. And while the VO is bothersome the ending ending (down to the final shot) is well played (and I did like the ambiguity of Vito's character in the end--is he using the cops to become kind of the underworld vs. he's a good cop trying to take down the underworld.) All that said it's certainly not half as good as Dirty Pretty Things IMO.

It was certainly compelling and atmospheric, but the twist regarding Mortensen's character made the whole thing a good deal less morally interesting, reducing it to a good guys/bad guys story. Alex's take above is interesting, but I don't really buy it. Still well worth watching though.

it was up on here th other day
(http://movies.nabolister.com/list.php?movieorserie=0)
..im sure it will reappear
divx and firefox are a help too

i liked dirty pretty things but it had a pretty laaaaaame ending (their whole super-awesome secret plan)

what loose ends?

Sorry, missed this response. The loose end I meant is whether Nikolai is "with the police" or "with the mob" at the end of the movie.

he's an undercover cop. considering he does nothing really bad in the movie besides maybe chopping up teh already-dead dude i'm not really getting the moral ambiguity other folks are sensing in this one.

He essentially raped an underage sex slave, and you think he did nothing really bad in the movie?

s1ocki otm, this was ok but not that great. talked to some chick from moscow and she kind of talked me down from my high, which was induced by that fight scene and my <3 of vigo. sub-b-movie at best. 'a history of violence' was so much better unless i talk to some chick from iowa, but even then i doubt it. such a cronenberg fanboy after i saw 'spider.' and you know everything else. god what a great director, hope it doesn't get too bad from here.

no you're right... having sex with the prostitute is defly the worst thing he does. but im not getting why this is any more nuanced or interesting than any other "in too deep!" undercover thriller.

i mean he puts up her uncle in a 5-star hotel for christ's sakes. when he said that i knew the movie was going downhill.

Cronenberg's career this decade sort of defines "nothing special" to me.

My favorite is probably that 2000 short he did for TIFF that's on the Videodrome DVD.

1. everybody otm who said this defines mediocrity as thrillers go (cronenberg: I'll beat hitchcock!! I'll use BLOOD AND GUTS to do it!)

2. how the fuck do you walk away from this confused that semyon sets him up (knowing he's an informer, most likely) and that he is an FSB agent working with Scotland Yard all along?

ok nevermind I did the math, put 1 and 2 together = some folks have just not made a habit of watching all these undercover/espionage thrillers ever

still I think most directors who aren't cronenberg would have told this story with about 16-20 minutes less fluff and gore, and the film would have been better for it. it's a short, neat piece, I honestly see very little that's "open ended" about it at all. Total waste of Viggo after the first "undertaker" sequence and I'd hardly call myself a Viggo fan

so many little "touches" in this film are just a waste of time

yup, pretty much.

Viggo is the only good thing about this film, but he really is great in it and single-handedly makes it watchable.

I dunno. I like Armin Mueller-Stahl as Semyon. He was a pretty effective bad guy, despite any wrongness re: Russianness.

Viggo is the only good thing about this film

The cinematography and use of London locations are pretty good as well. Oh, and that fight.

Actually I enjoyed it. But it's kind of an absurd film when you scrutinise it.

I liked the "verticality" of this (for lack of a better word) -- lots of scenes with the actors (esp. Viggo, with his hair tightly slicked back) standing ramrod straight, shots bookended by walls or slyly-framed architecture. I'm thinking especially of the scene between Mueller-Stahl & the barber behind the restaurant -- AM-S standing on the platform in the background, barber in the foreground, both framed by the lines of the buildings and the walls -- and especially the scene in the bathhouse. It infused everything a sense of tension and enclosure that gave the movie most of its juice.

I'm a softie, tho -- thinking about the plot might make me sad, and the ending was a bit of a whoopie cushion, but I liked everyone in it (even Watts, tho she didn't have much to do after the 1st 30 minutes), liked that the treachery was mostly left unexplained until the aftermath, and had no problem w/ the voiceover (it lent the scene w/ the girl singing right before Viggo paid her a little after-the-fact oomph) or the TWIST.

i loved this

when i watch movies i'm not comparing them to other movies on a scale of one to fucking ten, although if i had to choose a grade i'd give this one a V for VIGGO

i agree with all of lauren's posts and i think the fact that it's even possible to observe what she observed shows what a fully imagined world cronenberg creates. the loose ends aren't in the plot, they're in little provocations and niggles that are just irreducibly there, and set my imagination off. he draws my attention to things that other directors don't - the sound of a tattoo needle; jumping up to get the balloon in the netting; the unsatisfying physicality of a useless motorcycle kickstarter - even if the story itself is no great shakes on paper. i like that he decided to do a genre piece and bring that sensibility, rather than do another freakazoid gristle gun hallucination. even history of violence was too shaggy dog for me.

other things i want to remember:

the little violinist girls

the idiot kid happily yelling "arsenal" in the middle of 10,000 chelsea fans, wearing the wrong color scarf, and then actually pissing on someone's grave - hmm you think he's got something coming to him? woops, your neck just turned into a waterfall. you don't really see that type of thing in a stephen frears movie.

i was also pleased to see that the opening scene (in the barber shop) was set on one of my local high streets, broadway market! now that i think about it, the argentinian restaurant has photos of viggo and cronenberg in there, looking tired, with their arms around a couple of the chefs.

about the reveal, yeah - i was thinking: it doesn't change anything about the story. the story would be stronger if he was just a criminal with a heart of gold, right? but i think i know why it's this way. because it adds a whole whonking gallon of difficulty to his relationship w/naomi watts. it offers him a chance that a normal criminal wouldn't have, a chance to hang it all up - the tooth removal and the almost-getting-killed - and cash it in with naomi watts. but it clashes with his passion, to go as far as he can, to take out the really big dogs. viggo being a cop means he gets to wrestle with this question. i'm kind of glad we don't get some drawn-out scene spelling out this tug-of-war in his heart. we just infer it, from that last, short scene of him at the table in the restaurant.

also vincent cassell was tremendous

yes this was pretty tremendous

Apparently Cronenberg & Viggo have a sequel in the works.

yeah, it's really beguiling. i remember thinking i wanted it go on much longer, it was such a pleasure just watching the characters inhabit this super detailed world. so many great locations too: the restaurant/club, the bathhouse, the cemetery, that weird slipway on the river.

x-post uh, cool i get my wish i guess

<3<3<3 this movie; it definitely stands up to repeat viewings

I liked it. The diary readings were occasionally painful tho iirc

were there any real russians in this movie?

dope movie. fight scene is one of the best i've ever seen

yeah that fight was ridiculous

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mark_of_Cain_(2000_film)

been meaning to get a t()rrent of that^.Anyone seen it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mark_of_Cain_(2000_film)

link fucked up

asdgsdfbgg

Can't help feeling I'd have preferred this film had the same raw material been dumped in the hands of Polanski.

i feel the same way about transformers

s1ocki otm here. watts was so insufferably morally offended college freshman here

http://www.avclub.com/article/eastern-promises-sequel-getting-ready-film-march-248596

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/etienne_saint/1920_zpsjtt5rcby.jpg

hope they show us how he got his powars

Hurting & s1ocki were on teh drugs