pre-Raphaelite art

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In its modern incarnation it seems the apotheosis of kitsch. Was it, in its heyday, ur-kitsch? I admit I can't take it seriously. Show me the error of my ways.

― M. V. (M.V.), Friday, 30 September 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

there is no error. It's horrible.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 30 September 2005 15:46 (twenty years ago)

Why do you ask these questions, just as I'm about to go home for the weekend?

PRB was actually Very Serious in its heyday, it had Political Ideals and addressed Serious Issues and all that - compared to a great deal of contemporary Victorian art, it was anti-kitsch.

And you are both completely wrong - it is lovely. Deep and lush and symbolic and rich.

― The Brocade Fire (kate), Friday, 30 September 2005 15:47 (twenty years ago)

You forgot 'dewy-eyed'.

― Aimless (Aimless), Friday, 30 September 2005 16:58 (twenty years ago)

The artists themselves were deeply serious about what they were doing. However, Gilbert & Sullivan's Patience is a satire on PBRism and aestheticism, which suggests that there was an audience that regarded this culture as a worthy target of criticism.

Personally, I'm not so fond of the paintings, but love William Morris' fabric prints.

― j.lu (j.lu), Friday, 30 September 2005 17:06 (twenty years ago)

ihttp://www.artchive.com/artchive/b/burne-jones/burne-jones_merlin.jpg

― stewart downes (sdownes), Friday, 30 September 2005 17:21 (twenty years ago)

People (including perennial curmudgeon Charles Dickens) went ape-shit over "Christ in the House of his Parents" (sic?) because it dared to show Jesus as a miserable little wretch in a shitty shack.

― Roxymuzak, Mrs. Carbohydrate (roxymuzak), Friday, 30 September 2005 17:25 (twenty years ago)

I love Pre Raphaelite Art. I also like the way they seem to have been the first modern art movement. It's also interesting how the world likes them a lot more than it did a mere 20 years ago when my school history of art book was written.

Having said all that, I'm not particularly gone on Rosetti, but I wuv Burne-Jones and Holman Hunt.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Saturday, 1 October 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

compared to a great deal of contemporary Victorian art, it was anti-kitsch.

Kate, could you post a couple of links to egregious examples of non-PRB, pre-PRB Victorian art?

― M. V. (M.V.), Sunday, 2 October 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

More like pre-Crapaelite.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Sunday, 2 October 2005 14:48 (twenty years ago)

"PBRism"
http://www.pubdecor.com/shop/image.php?productid=946

― robots in love (robotsinlove), Sunday, 2 October 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

PRB hate is for haters.

― Roxymuzak, Mrs. Carbohydrate (roxymuzak), Sunday, 2 October 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

My request is real, though. Examples, please, of the Victorian sensibility against which PRB artists were rebelling.

― M. V. (M.V.), Sunday, 2 October 2005 18:46 (twenty years ago)

There were all sorts of bits and pieces that they were rebelling against, that for me never cohered into anything much, and even the parts weren't actually followed terribly well - this is all perhaps suggested by the name, which was never satisfactorily explained. It was a reaction against Raphael's paradigmatic status as the most beautiful painter ever, but what the 'pre' implied was never clear. They were for realism, painting directly from nature, and against mannered and stereotyped subjects - but of course much of their work was romantic rather than realistic, and they very quickly worked out their own conventions and standards. They were against the artificial and the sentimental, but I find it very hard to imagine how anyone could deduce that from their work. I'm inclined to think that a label like 'English Romantics' would be better, but they came up with their own name, and we're stuck with it. If you want an example of the sort of twee academicism they hated, Daniel Maclise is often cited, and is indeed appalling:
http://www.nma.gov.au/libraries/images/temporary_exhibitions/outlawed/robin_hood/robin_hood_and_his_merry_men_entertaining_richard_the_lionheart_in_sherwood_forest_by_daniel_maclise/files/1334/Maclise_NCM-1984-400.jpg

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 2 October 2005 19:06 (twenty years ago)

Thanks.

― M. V. (M.V.), Sunday, 2 October 2005 19:21 (twenty years ago)

I've noticed that seemingly dozens of Pre-Raphaelite paintings are reproduced on the covers of books about wicca.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Sunday, 2 October 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

Seeing the canonical PRBs in person is important I think, especially seeing them in the context of other Victorian art. It's so much more intense, especially in color. This one is really great in person:

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/exhibitions/rossetti/graphics/large/elle-ancilla-domini.jpg

― Roxymuzak, Mrs. Carbohydrate (roxymuzak), Monday, 3 October 2005 00:14 (twenty years ago)

If you don't like this painting you are Vladimir Putin as far as I am concerned:

http://www.artmag.com/museums/a_greab/agblsta/millais.gif

― Roxymuzak, Mrs. Carbohydrate (roxymuzak), Monday, 3 October 2005 00:16 (twenty years ago)

Errr... when I'm not swamped under with work, I'll find you some uber-kitch Victorian sentimentality. Honestly, some of this stuff puts Norman Rockwell to shame.

For PRB political agendas, search out their emmigrant pictures, the awakened conscience, "Take Your Son" or whatever it's called, argh. More lemsip required.

― Paranoid Spice (kate), Monday, 3 October 2005 07:44 (twenty years ago)

I am a great admirer of the wet white ground.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 3 October 2005 08:34 (twenty years ago)

And then there is this one:

http://www.juanval.net/art/images/Ruskin%20Grande.jpg

the story behind its composition is very entertaining.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 3 October 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

Wasn't the artist sleeping with the sitter's wife? Or was it the other way around?

― Paranoid Spice (kate), Monday, 3 October 2005 08:46 (twenty years ago)

The artist (Millais) was sleeping with the sitter's wife. The sitter (Ruskin) was an art critic who believed all art should be true to life. However, his marriage was unconsummated, because he was repulsed by his wife's pubic hair.

Ruskin remained a champion of the Pre Raphaelites.

My old flatmate wrote a play about Rosetti and Morris. Apparently when Rosetti was having it away with Mrs Morris, he had to make his way to her room through Mr Morris's bedroom. This situation lasted for years.

I wish more people were like the Pre Raphaelites.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 3 October 2005 08:51 (twenty years ago)

eight years pass...

More like pre-Crapaelite.
― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Sunday, October 2, 2005 2:48 PM (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― conkers, Thursday, 14 November 2013 00:58 (twelve years ago)

More like Pre-Raphaelshite

― conkers, Thursday, 14 November 2013 00:59 (twelve years ago)

Classic Conkers Revive TM

― tɹi.ʃɪp (Treeship), Thursday, 14 November 2013 01:00 (twelve years ago)

http://uploads3.wikipaintings.org/images/edward-burne-jones/portrait-of-a-young-boy.jpg

― conkers, Thursday, 14 November 2013 01:07 (twelve years ago)

There's this attempt on the part of these 19th century painters to recapture something of the naiveté of medieval Italian painters (hence 'before Raphael') despite having access to all the tools and knowledge developed since then.

The problem is that Botticelli, one of their major influences, is himself pushing forward and developing painting, on the way from Ikons to the Mona Lisa. So yes, his figures seem to be held in a delicious tension between formalism and naturalism, and between asceticism and sensualism, and no wonder the PRB wanted to recreate this, BUT that tension is only possible because Botticelli is trying to move forward.

IMO the attempt to arrest that movement so its moment can be reproduced indefinitely is what makes these paintings (which are not 'bad') seem kitsch.

St Pancras would rather be a cathedral than a railway station as would many Victorian town halls and public buildings. Not to mention Mumbai train station. Again, these are not 'bad' architecture, but like PRB painting, their mind is elsewhere ... so elsewhere that it becomes a problem.

― cardamon, Friday, 15 November 2013 02:55 (twelve years ago)

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