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T/S Chavs vs Goths

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It's political correctness gone mad.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:40 (twenty years ago)

I don't mind 'chav' replacing 'townie' now - half the syllables, quicker to say, fair enough.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:44 (twenty years ago)

i'm down with that.

― g-kit (g-kit), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:47 (twenty years ago)

Why "Goths", which is almost undoubtedly what these people aren't (Goths never leave the house) and not "moshers"?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:49 (twenty years ago)

it was always "grungers" when i was wee.

― g-kit (g-kit), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:50 (twenty years ago)

Again, less syllables.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:50 (twenty years ago)

i'm down.

― g-kit (g-kit), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:51 (twenty years ago)

Ravers vs Grebs

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:52 (twenty years ago)

Why have grebs got nothing to do with greebos?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:53 (twenty years ago)

i briefly lived in the peterborough Orton's

― Britain's Jauntiest Shepherd (Alan), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:55 (twenty years ago)

Why have grebs got nothing to do with greebos?

They have, haven't they? Or, if you prefer, they chav, chaven't they?

― Raymond Douglas Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

i think grebs and grebos were more or less the same -- but it were all crips and bloods where i grew up.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:57 (twenty years ago)

Surely the goths are massively, massively outnumbered? It hardly seems fair.

"Chavs - thousands of them"

― Matt (Matt), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:57 (twenty years ago)

goths are surprisingly resilient, innit.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 09:59 (twenty years ago)

destroy the brain, stake to the heart, all that.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:00 (twenty years ago)

haha holy shit they should sell tickets.

― emsk ( emsk), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:00 (twenty years ago)

Townies/chavs/etc have always called anyone looking slightly alternative "goths", or "gothics". They're not bothered whether it's correct or not. I used to get yelled at for being a gothic when I was a teenager, when I was nothing of the sort. I may have had a Sisters of Mercy CD, but I dressed like your average foppish indie kid with my Carter USM and Ned's Atomic Dustbin t-shirts and DMs.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:07 (twenty years ago)

Whereas Townies is a well-thought-out label used with careful discrimination.

― I Ain't No Addict, Whoever Heard of a Junkie as Old as Me? (noodle vague), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:11 (twenty years ago)

DOM PASSANTINO. STOP TALKING ABOUT CHAVS, YOUNG MAN, AND E-MAIL ME AT WORK THIS INSTANT. or i shall unleash my private goth army on yr skinny ass.

(which probably won't hurt very much, but hey.)

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:12 (twenty years ago)

Touché.

I should probably have put quotes round all the terms in my last post.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:13 (twenty years ago)

Townies/chavs/etc have always called anyone looking slightly alternative "goths", or "gothics". They're not bothered whether it's correct or not. I used to get yelled at for being a gothic when I was a teenager, when I was nothing of the sort. I may have had a Sisters of Mercy CD, but I dressed like your average foppish indie kid with my Carter USM and Ned's Atomic Dustbin t-shirts and DMs.

Goth.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

I like goths, they're fun and usually awfully timid. They're like those toads that try and stay out of the way, but have bright markings to appear more dangerous than they really are.

― Come Back Johnny B (Johnney B), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:30 (twenty years ago)

yeah yeah yeah, and if you lick them, you get FUCKED UP.

― g-kit (g-kit), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:32 (twenty years ago)

Yeh it was ravers vs greebos back in my day. Neither party were actually ravers nor greebos, but that's what they got called.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:45 (twenty years ago)

also, i think this is a great idea.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:45 (twenty years ago)

The interesting thing (maybe) about Chavs vs Goths is that when compared to Mods v Rockers, Punks v Hippies and even Ravers v Grungers (or whatever, technically not a rivalry/conflict as aggression was way off the agenda on EITHER side surely), the Goth stereotype seems more 'weird' and 'out there' than anything else mentioned (at least when taken to it's extreme, though this is evidently not happening with 90% of the people who actually get called goths) whereas the Chav stereotype seems more pedestrian, unchallenging and culturally ambiguous than any of the others and has no real musical reference. The rivalry between chavs and goths then seems exaggerated here as a result, compared to the other aforementioned well known 'tribal' conflicts.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 11:13 (twenty years ago)

what do chavs listen to?

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 11:15 (twenty years ago)

haha, girls aloud of course.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 11:18 (twenty years ago)

Papa Roach and Autechre.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 11:20 (twenty years ago)

DJ Yoda does it again...

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

Steve, I thought it would be obvious that the term "Goth" is being used as a catch-all term for Skaters, Punks, Metal fans, Indie kids, Gothics, Nu-Metallers and all their friends; same as "Chav", despite all the social connotations is used for the baseball-capped R'n'B/Dance/Hip-hop fans. Neither term is being used in it's original sense but it is a banner under which the two groups have grouped (or been grouped). I find it funny that "Chav", previously a derogatory term, is starting to be appropriated as a cultural label by the kids themselves. I guess it's a bit like the n-word.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:15 (twenty years ago)

raver, pleaze.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)

That was not quite obvious to me DL, although perhaps it should've been. Still, that 'goth' be chosen as the catch-all validates my point I think.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:26 (twenty years ago)

it is a bit odd to choose "Goth", because "Goth" is a very specific term and I can imagine a lot of indie kids and skaters getting pissed off by it, but then again I don't think a lot of people would enjoy being labelled a "Chav" either.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

goths are notorious about refusing goth status to other goths, no?

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

No, the most goth thing you can do is refuse to accord "goth" status to yourSELF.

― Luminiferous Aether (kate), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

yeh (apart from really annoying goths who don't shut up about being a goth), so basically by labelling a whole group of people "Goths" you're pissing them all off - job done! Similarly I'm yet to see any actual Chavs going round saying "Watch out for us cos we're Chavs innit an' we'll brock you up" or whatever.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:44 (twenty years ago)

this is a *really* ugly story. it is *not funny* when a supposedly left-leaning newspaper starts bandying aorond words like "chav". (why not just call them "scumbag potential recidivists and teenage mothers with the wrong sense of style" and have done with it?). the fact that the word chav has "replaced" townie is not up for debate, it's always been synonymous. the rank prejudice against this group of people hasn't changed for generations, only the words do. it's traditionally held by jumped up middle-class kids (and way too many jumped up middle-class adults) who somehow think they're smarter/better, higher on the intellectual/social ladder than the vast majority of people in this country. the longer this is allowed to go on unchecked and unchallenged, the more problems there are likely to be. i'm sorry but all this really makes me want to barf.

― stelf)xxxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:45 (twenty years ago)

maybe i was a goth, but just so goth i wasn't even aware of it.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:46 (twenty years ago)

Stelfox, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Townie to me is a completely different thing (Ben-Sherman wearing provincial clubbing office drones who drink too much stella and pull rough birds). But whatever you label them, Chavs or Townies or whatever, for one, do exist whether you want to put your fingers in your ears or not. I don't know if it's politically correct to go around giving them labels, but I'm still young enough to remember that at school, half the people there were considered "Ravers", which was the accepted term for teens who wore sportswear, hooded tops, Kickers shoes, listened to Garage, Gangsta Rap, R'n'B, Trance, D'n'B as opposed to Grunge or Metal.

I don't think the article was making any kind of discrimination against any larger social group other than different teenage gangs more than anything else.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:18 (twenty years ago)

what is there not to understand? my points are perfectly clear and lucid.

― stelf)xxxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

what is there not to understand? my points are perfectly clear and lucid and, as i said, a supposedly left-leaning paper actigvely chucking discriminatory terms around is not amusing to me.

― stelf)xxxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:23 (twenty years ago)

you're not always against discriminatory language, to be fair, dave.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:26 (twenty years ago)

what is there not to understand? my points are perfectly clear and lucid and, as i said, a supposedly left-leaning paper actigvely chucking discriminatory terms around is not amusing to me.

It's the term used by Peterborough council. And I don't think the term (in this particular case) is being used in a discriminatory way other to identify a particular gang at school.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:29 (twenty years ago)

I'm sure this argument has been had before (See the 'Defend the lyrics to Kaiser CHIEVES 'I Predict A Riot' thread on ILM for most recent example) but to me the whole point of the Chav label is not about class but attitude/behaviour. Granted it's easy for the latter to be mistaken for the former by both journalists and readers alike with articles like this but I have no qualms about criticising 'chav' stereotypes as they are now known based on the associated behaviour/attitudes if they are demonstrated, whilst criticising or dismissing the use of the word when it appears to be based on a sweeping class generalisation. Often I find this to not be the case however.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

I think there is a confusion here between chav, which I always take to mean council-estate underclass (like neds), and what my nephew calls "rudeboys" - which to him and his mates in Stevenage seems to mean the more aspirational, label-conscious boys around town.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

And to be fair, the word "chav" and the dissection of chav culture is usually the pursuit of Sun readers. Make of that what you will.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

Stevem OTM. I think the word "chav" is being misused if it is referring to large areas of class etc. When I was at school the "Raver"/"Townie"/"Chav" types came from all sorts of backgrounds.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

It is only in the last year or so that the word "Chav" has come to mean "underclass". Before the national adoptation of the word, each area had a name for predominantly aggressive teenagers in sportswear.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

I think it's only in the last year that chav hasn't meant underclass! Surely it's part and parcel of that whole underclass hate - calling things "argos" or "council", describing single mums as "pramface" etc etc.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:49 (twenty years ago)

you're not always against discriminatory language, to be fair, dave.

what's that supposed to mean nrq. i'm curious and would like you to elaborate, maybe.


I'm sure this argument has been had before (See the 'Defend the lyrics to Kaiser CHIEVES 'I Predict A Riot' thread on ILM for most recent example) but to me the whole point of the Chav label is not about class but attitude/behaviour.

steve, sorry, but giving your own interpretation of a word with a pretty solid meaning as a way to justify its currecy is pretty specious. fair enough, "nigga" has different meanings when used by bonehead nazis and black american rappers and you can say that this is because it has been reinterpreted and reclaimed by the latter. however, it's nota word *i* would ever dream of attempting to reclaim or subvert, because i can't. it's never been applied to me. see what i mean?


I think there is a confusion here between chav, which I always take to mean council-estate underclass (like neds), and what my nephew calls "rudeboys" - which to him and his mates in Stevenage seems to mean the more aspirational, label-conscious boys around town.

jerry's absolutely right here.

― stelf)xxxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:57 (twenty years ago)

I think it's only in the last year that chav hasn't meant underclass!

do you honestly think it doesn't now, jerry. i'm interested in your answer because i still see its use as indicative of people's desire too look down on those lower down the social hierarchy than themselves and don't really see this having altered any.

― stelf)xxxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:05 (twenty years ago)

I think now it's just become a tabloid word for anyone in burberry.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:11 (twenty years ago)

same thing!

― stelf)xxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:12 (twenty years ago)

just that you wouldn't make such a blanket condemnation of homophobic lyrics, really. i'm all against 'chav', but i think d/l is on to something in that it seems to have been aadopted a bit -- and its meaning hasn't been settled. people use it for different things, initially specifically burberry-clad youths, now basically anyone who is in sportswear in the SE.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

I take your point Dave. The dilution of 'chav' remains telling wrt social perceptions of ethnicity. Though I'm not sure if 'rudeboy' is any more PC given it's own derivation and origin. It is perhaps idealistic of me to think that certain words can be effectively reclaimed/redefined by those who aren't the victims or targets of such words. I would revert to 'townie' but would rather have just the one syllable ;)

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:14 (twenty years ago)

Ah well, there went another interesting thread on youth culture and possibly workable alternatives to Youths On Street Corners. Thanks Stelfox, we really needed yet another thread about the other C-word!!!

― Luminiferous Aether (kate), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

nrq, where have i NOT condemned homophobia? i've done it in print in several publications in several countries, i've taken it up with the people responsible for it and i've sure as hell done it here *repeatedly*, because i'm *repeatedly* put in a position where i have to. you're a smart guy, you read a lot, so do me the basic courtesy of reading *what i say* and taking it as such, rather than using small sections wildly out of context every time you feel like being clever - it's far, far from it.

― stelf)xxxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

I feel silly now. Maybe I'll just call them yobs after all.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

kate, my criticism is relevant, too.
i let you work out what you want to do about the menace of working-class people being allowed to walk the streets on your own.

― stelf)xxxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:31 (twenty years ago)

especially when the tread is called chavs vs goths and makes no mention of any of the things you just brought up.

― stelf)xxxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 14:32 (twenty years ago)

The council in Peterborogh - shithole, BTW - were the ones initially putting forward 'chav' so it's fair enough if the Guardian documents that use in a *news story*. To editorialise within the story is not the place of of a news journalist and I bet the Comment people are getting their gnashers into it right now.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 15:11 (twenty years ago)

uses of the word chav in direct quoutation: 6
uses of the word chav elsewhere in the story: 20

imagine if this was another word that discriminates against a group of people. i don't think they'd have done that.

― stelf)xxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 15:24 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, Michael Collins is right innit.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 15:26 (twenty years ago)

not really, that book got off to a bad start, was great read in the middle and ended horribly

― stelf)xxx, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 15:31 (twenty years ago)

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/searchresults.php?board=1&q=chav&mode=threads

― Luminiferous Aether (kate), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

two years pass...

so, who won??

― gershy, Thursday, 6 December 2007 04:01 (eighteen years ago)

GOTHS always win in the end bcz they secretly like Spandau Ballet.

― Abbott, Thursday, 6 December 2007 04:10 (eighteen years ago)

Depends on the town. Goths took Yorkshire and the Midlands, Chavs seemingly won the rest.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 6 December 2007 09:20 (eighteen years ago)

why not just call them "scumbag potential recidivists and teenage mothers with the wrong sense of style" and have done with it?

― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Thursday, 6 December 2007 09:22 (eighteen years ago)

And to think Carmody thought Stelfox may be a little right wing! He sure was K-RAZEEEE.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 6 December 2007 09:23 (eighteen years ago)

Peterborough - shithold -btw) - it's really not that bad. If i was being harsh i might call it uninteresting. IF i was being harsh.

― Ned Trifle II, Thursday, 6 December 2007 10:03 (eighteen years ago)

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/1565999.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19390335F8FA9CA92A6463549AC78609B189930FDCFC4C15FBB

Something about a "fat fucking arsehole and a shit football team", I think.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 6 December 2007 10:05 (eighteen years ago)

my girlfriend died when i was 15 (she was 15). i don;t know where she ie. i don;t know where i am. i hate evveryrhing. i hate so many of you. at least i'm sincefre, sssholes. '''''

sorry. i'm bareley even goth on ilm. i just take it to

― andi, Friday, 7 December 2007 00:18 (eighteen years ago)

you okay andi?

― Abbott, Friday, 7 December 2007 00:20 (eighteen years ago)

i love ya, trayce, curtis, ned, scott seward. bye. no.

― andi, Friday, 7 December 2007 00:21 (eighteen years ago)

Um andi, you need to see someone methinks :(

― Trayce, Friday, 7 December 2007 03:58 (eighteen years ago)

Request for explanation:

Skaters, Punks, Metal fans, Indie kids, Gothics, Nu-Metallers and all their friends

In the UK, are all these groups like part of one organized subculture that actually gives enough of a shit to physically fight about shit? And indie kids and gothics aren't just waifish bookworms?

And chavs are just like white kids into hip-hop culture? The former group is more middle class and the latter group more working class?

― Sundar, Friday, 7 December 2007 05:53 (eighteen years ago)

(I'm in favour of government-sponsored BB gun battles in any case.)

― Sundar, Friday, 7 December 2007 05:54 (eighteen years ago)

sorry about last night. i was drunk, again. i didn't even remember that until i was browsing around. i don't know why was on about that. thanks.

― andi, Friday, 7 December 2007 15:02 (eighteen years ago)

More on Peterborough:

http://991.com/newGallery/Sudden-Sway-76-Kids-Forever-305575.jpg

― Tom D., Friday, 7 December 2007 15:07 (eighteen years ago)

And chavs are just like white kids into hip-hop culture? The former group is more middle class and the latter group more working class?

-- Sundar, Friday, 7 December 2007 05:53 (9 hours ago) Bookmark Link

Chavness has absolutely nothing to do with hip-hop culture, or anything American. It's born out of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuals

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 7 December 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

And to answer your broader point they don't really fight. If you read the original articles the actual stuff that goes on between the groups is more like name calling.

― Ned Trifle II, Friday, 7 December 2007 20:08 (eighteen years ago)

OK, the "mods vs rockers" comparison and the word "gangs" gave me that impression. Then the city council is organizing them into something that's actually more violent than what was originally going on? That's fabulous. Governments sponsoring BB gun battles in order to regulate teenage name-calling = even more classic!

(Chavs = something like trendy jocks?)

― Sundar, Friday, 7 December 2007 22:10 (eighteen years ago)

any other soul whirling somewhere fans here?
i'd never call him goth, but, haha, i sure love gothing out to that guy.
i almost made myself smile earlier today - laying on my bed, halfway through the day, nowhere, in the gray, listening to 'eating the sea' in the fetal position and considering (and going through with) drinking tonight. . . (turned down for another job today, did extra chores, etc. . . somewhere that makes me sick and that i don't belong. living with someone that hurts me every day.)

i really love that guy's music.

please ban me.

― andi, Sunday, 9 December 2007 03:17 (eighteen years ago)

i'm sorry for being such a jerk. 95% of my posts are drunk.

― andi, Sunday, 9 December 2007 03:24 (eighteen years ago)

damn, andi. i understand what you're feeling, but i don't know exactly why. you're being cryptic in a way that says you want to talk about things but maybe ashamed of them so you have to get drunk to say anything. how is someone hurting you? are you struggling with a specific condition, or just generally dealing with the sadness that afflicts most us?

i can't do anything but listen and try to understand, but i don't even understand what it is exactly right now, just that i've felt that way too.

people you meet online who live far away can be friendly, and even friends, but they can't do much in a way that does much to change your situation.

― slugbuggy, Sunday, 9 December 2007 13:13 (eighteen years ago)

hey

― andi, Sunday, 9 December 2007 14:27 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/switch/them

― Tracer Hand, Sunday, 9 December 2007 15:00 (eighteen years ago)

i think a lot of the mockery of "chavs" in the media is pretty sickening, but i still reckon the last thing on the mind of a 14 year old fallout boy fan getting his head panned in by a load of tough kids in trackies is class solidarity. there are different types of power, it's complicated.

― pc user, Sunday, 9 December 2007 15:44 (eighteen years ago)

chavs come from casuals? fuck off, being a casual was all about having a sense of style, not tucking your trackie bottopms into your socks and wearing a baseball cap too tight.

FWIW when I was in secondary school, I was all about the pringle and the Lyle and Scott, but, seeing as I liked the Smiths, I got labelled as a goth....

― Porkpie, Sunday, 9 December 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)


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