Mia Farrow's son -- Ronan Seamus Farrow -- really creeps me out!

http://img.pandawhale.com/60355-Mary-Poppins-claps-gif-7MLU.gif

Bottom line, Allen's behavior with Soon-Yi was reprehensible. It is mitigated to some degree by the fact that they are still together after 20 years. Certainly, it appears that she does not consider herself a victim.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Kay_Letourneau

my own personal reaction about his art is that i'm happy to watch everything up until the abuse starts, and anything past that skeeves me out. (conveniently that's when it all went to shit)

i was just trying to think if there were any allen movies i'd be sad never to see again, and the first one that came to mind was 'crimes and misdemeanors.' which, i suddenly realized, is about a guy who commits a horrible crime and decides at the end of the movie that he can live with the guilt of never getting caught.

i guess i don't really understand the need to come to a decision about a situation we can't actually know the truth of

i can see that need being very present if you are related to or work with woody, mia, or another of the parties directly involved

on the other hand i don't really judge anyone for making their decisions about it

i do judge people who judge people over making a decision about it that they don't like; some people just like to argue, i guess

re. people falling in love with adults who they had known as children. it doesn't seem that uncommon. it's certainly a staple of literature until early this century. i guess i don't feel qualified to judge this, as much as it may creep me out (and i do get a shiver of repulsion when i think about it). i'm sure there are examples where the relationship is fundamentally imbalanced and exploitative and other examples where it's not. who am i to judge the internal dynamics of other folks' relationship, esp. on scant evidence? i don't mean this about woody and soon-yi in particular (there are reasons why that case is especially unsettling) , but in general since folks upthread have deplored this phenomenon of women or men falling in love with people they had known as children. again, my being creeped out by something is not a reason for me to assume that it's wrong in every case.

i could easily do w/o woody allen movies. actually the one woody allen movie i think i've seen in the past decade is vicky christina barcelona and i wish i hadn't seen it.

Soon-Yi was in my art history survey course for two semesters in college. I sat in front of her, but I didn't have any interaction with her.

it's certainly a staple of literature until early this century.

I thought of this when I noticed that Gigi, Oscar-winning Best Picture of 1958, is playing at MoMA in a couple weeks.

...yes, after all, this has been a trope of literature throughout the ages, and I mean, come on, Beatrice was 7 or whatever when Dante first saw and fell in love with her, and women were viewed as chattel who were married off in exchange for a bride price as soon as they started to bleed, for most of history - so why why why can't rich dudes just groom and rape 13 year olds now, like men have done all through history, back when women were considered property with no rights, let alone desires of their own, instead of having to pay attention to stupid little trifles like consent and avoiding abuse or coercive situations. God damn, civilisation is so fucking stupid!

did you miss the part where i noted that i was talking about people who fall in love with adults who they had known as children? it isn't necessarily the case that this involves "grooming" or pedophilia or the other things you mention. i'm not speaking specifically of the woody/soon-yi relationship.

i feel like you are willfully misreading my post so that you can follow it up with as much righteous indignation as you can muster. i hope you feel better now.

i do judge people who judge people over making a decision about it that they don't like; some people just like to argue, i guess

are there really people judging people for liking woody allen movies, though? perhaps in huffpo comment boxes and whatnot - people one already likely judges harshly - but i don't recall that sentiment on thread.

that's not what i'm referring to at all, maybe that wasn't clear

i'm referring to people who

a) judge/condemn people harshly for deciding that they believe WA is a pedophile

b) judge/condemn people harshly for deciding that WA is not a pedophile

on the grounds of "you have not come to the same conclusion as I have based on the same modicum of evidence"

This is a factual matter, not a question of opinion. He did not live with her and formed no emotional bonds with them.

Stopped reading there

even there, am, i'm just curious where those people are, unless you're just referring to website comment box types

What I'm asking is, how many of those "girl falls in love, in adulthood, with adult man she knew as a child" stories were written *by* women and how many were written by men.

(And examine the social and economic circumstances in which they were justified.)

Now, I should really not be on this thread, because this is not a matter I can discuss dispassionately.

it's like saying you're not a role model.

― da croupier, Tuesday, January 14, 2014 10:20 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

whoa dont bring chuck into this

it's funny that the anger over this ramps up when someone decides to give WA another one of the awards he hasn't cared about or shown up to receive for his entire career, even before there was any controversy for him to shy away from.

I really do wonder why they bothered having Feminist Tribute To Woody Allen when he wasn't even there

It's ramped up *now* because Twitter is a platform by which people can distribute information which was not widely known before, without having to go through the "entire floor of a building" of publicists devoted to upholding a wealthy, culturally influential man who has the power and the influence to write narratives justifying his morally repugnant actions in the eyes of the public.

female writers have historically used the girls-grows-up-to-love-adult-friend trope rather a lot! off the top of my head:

in C Brontë's Villette, a 17-year-old falls in love with a 27-year-old she knew when she was 6 and he sixteen
in J Austen's Emma, the 20-year-old Emma Woodhouse falls in love with the 37-year-old Mr Knightley who she has known all her life

it's the plot of at least one georgette heyer romance (these old shades); margery allingham's detective, albert campion, eventually marries amanda fitton who he met when she was 17 and he somewhere in his thirties; i can't swear to it but i'm fairly sure the same trope is present in one of the Tamora Pierce YA fantasy novels I read as a teenager.

*girl-grows-up-to-love-adult-male-friend, i mean

last year's gg lifetime achievement speech had jodie foster giving mel gibson a shout-out, this year diane keaton singing a girl scouts song to woody allen, how are they going to top this in 2015

Kanye bigups gwb while wearing nazi uniform

C#m, We have pretty much thoroughly covered "ways in which the Brontes write about shockingly terrible relationships" on the other thread. J Austen's Emma was pretty much the only other one I could think of offhand. "Hot, mysterious, older guy" is totally a trope in female romantic writing throughout the ages, but he's far more often played for his mystery, rather than for his "father figure"-ness?

I also think this trope is very much connected with the cultural narrative of "your only career is matrimony and you only get one shot, or are ruined" and therefore going for a family friend who is known to be reliable is a wise career choice, rather than "OMG, I want to fuck all my dad's friends (or indeed my adopted dad)" being An Inherently Romantic Trope. Greek tragedies excepted, possibly.

There's also the novel Father Figure by G.Michael

That relationship, in Villette, is distinctly not of the "dude watching with the brontës" type.

also, to be entirely up-to-date, the last twilight book features an infant who grows up (admittedly in an accelerated fashion) to fall in love with her mother's male best friend.

I find it squicky and weird, and cannot imagine ever being in that situation, but there are certainly women for whom the trope appeals, even in the modern era when women have significantly better options for meeting new people.

If you are asking "how many of those "girl falls in love, in adulthood, with adult man she knew as a child" stories were written *by* women and how many were written by men." - a lot of them were written by women; this is not an good argument for expressing the very real problems with this kind of behaviour in the modern era.

OK, fine, I stand corrected. (Though I cannot also but point out how many people have pointed out exactly how abusive and coercive and unhealthy the relationships depicted in the Twilight series are, so that example in particular is not a good one. But again, some women also have rape fantasies; that does not justify rape, nor does it justify rape culture being a masculine creation.)

There are many, many problems here. I am at a distinct disadvantage in discussing this topic with anything approaching rationality, because of personal experiences. I can't discuss it as an adult, only as a 13 year old. But the whole "this is a trope in fiction, therefore it's understandable in real life" argument deeply, deeply skeeves me out.

But I guess Noodle Vague is right, in that it gives me a good idea of who to avoid in future.

"this is a trope in fiction, therefore it's understandable in real life"

but... who made this argument? certainly not me. i didn't argue that anything was "understandable"; in fact, i made the opposite argument, that I didn't feel qualified to make a blanket judgment one way or the other. maybe your experience makes you more qualified to do so, maybe it just makes you feel more qualified, i don't know. we're talking about a relationship between two consenting adults, and it seems to me worthwhile to start from the premise that each adult relationship is established on its own terms and has its own dynamics. which is to say, such relationships could be hideously exploitative, or they could be relatively healthy, or anywhere in between. i say this despite, as i've noted, having a visceral disgust for this sort of thing. there are many things that reflexively (?) disgust me that i don't feel qualified to judge.

now if you can demonstrate that this particular type of relationship tends strongly to fall into abusive/exploitative patterns, perhaps I would feel more qualified. so far I see assertions "very real problems with this kind of behavior in the modern era" without explanation.

amtst, have you ever thought about why statutory rape laws exist? a white middle class 15-year-old can give her "consent" to a white middle class 40-year-old but we as a society have decided that the power imbalance is so great as to render that consent unreliable.

similarly, when the power imbalance is as great as that between father/daughter, or world-famous celeb/abused child left for dead with lingering social difficulties, "consent" seems like a pretty flimsy hook to hang your "hey, who can REALLY know the interiority of a love affair?" hat on

as for your second graf i can only assume you're setting aside what dylan says woody allen did to her. i can't think that you require any explanation of why that's wrong.

Thank god no one has thrown out that chestnut known as "innocent until proven guilty"

it's certainly a staple of literature until early this century

By this standard, all bets are off.

btw am I misremembering or didn't Mia's lawyer also accuse WA of molesting Satchel/Ronan? That the Farrows are silent on that now ... dunno.

Thank god no one has thrown out that chestnut known as "innocent until proven guilty"

― Pale Smiley Face (dandydonweiner), Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:24 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the courts have already said the case was 'inconclusive', so as far as legalistic ideals goes we're left... talking about what has come out via journalism

this is 2014 America, ddw, i-til-pg went out awhile ago.

A state's attorney in Connecticut said yesterday that he had "probable cause" to prosecute Woody Allen on charges that he sexually molested his adopted daughter, but had decided to spare her the trauma of a court appearance

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/25/nyregion/connecticut-prosecutor-won-t-file-charges-against-woody-allen.html

xp

as for your second graf i can only assume you're setting aside what dylan says woody allen did to her. i can't think that you require any explanation of why that's wrong.

i wasn't speaking about the woody situation specifically, so no.

presumption of innocence is a legal principle designed to protect ppl from wrongful prosecution, not to keep ppl from forming their own opinions based on available evidence.

this is 2014 America, ddw, i-til-pg went out awhile ago never existed.

fixed that for you

ok. less dissent about it now tho.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal standard juries use to consider verdicts. It doesn't require people to suspend judgment based on known or easily-inferred facts or, more importantly, to act like morons. Nobody should need to point this out to a grown-ass man, and yet here we are.

xxxp

exactly. And particularly in a child molestation case, where it's SO difficult to actually prove a case.

morbs, come on

it's just funny that the "i'm not comfortable issuing a verdict on woody allen" sentiment even comes up, because no one is asking anyone to issue a verdict. the guy was given a bafflingly tone-deaf celebration on network tv, the brother and mother of the daughter who accused him of molestation called out the celebration and linked to the vanity fair articles covering their side of the matter. unless you work for the golden globes, all anyone's asking is for you to be aware of this shit. if it keeps you from wanting to see his movies, fine. if they don't, fine. but unless your public interaction with all things woody suggests a lack of awareness, nobody gives a fuck whether you think he's guilty, innocent, or if you're uncomfortable of making that call.

the thing is, as with the OJ Simpson trial, I do not give a good goddamn about anyone's opinion, including my own.

prove it

"I object, your honor! This trial is a travesty. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery ..."

http://lawinthereelworld.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/bananas.jpg

also, the thread is off topic.

Woody responds.

https://twitter.com/Maloneyberry/status/215558750893903873

lol @ the onion

?? @ that tweet

Onion otm

any particular reason you linked to that tweet, jaymc?