Fucking great, the BNP assholes are in this area...

Ms Kane said the word stands for a non-educated delinquent and is therefore degrading and insulting.

However, communities minister Margaret Curran accused her of focusing on "frivolities" rather than the blight of youth crime.

Ms Kane tabled a question asking the Scottish Executive to state its position on ministers using the term.

The former youth worker in the Drumchapel area of Glasgow wants the parliament to condemn its use, comparing it to ageism, racism and sexism.

Alienate youngsters

"If you were talking about any other section of society, let's say it was elderly people, and you used a derogatory term there would be an outcry," the MSP told BBC Scotland.

"Just because these young people don't have the vote and they live in some of the areas that you don't hear too much about or see too much about, it does not mean that they should not be protected in relation to language that is used against them."

The MSP has been supported by the charity Children in Scotland, which said such descriptions helped alienate youngsters from the rest of society.

Ms Kane and the charity said they were also concerned about the way young people have been portrayed recently.

Ms Curran insisted the priority of the executive was to respond to the problems encountered by communities and young people.

"I think it's much better that rather than blaming the people who use the term, you try to resolve the problem," said the communities minister.

Margaret Curran dismissed the call
"With all due respect I think you have a very strange sense of priorities.

"I'm quite happy to tell my constituents, the elderly women who are mugged, the hard-pressed families whose car tyres are slashed on a regular basis, that the policy of the SSP is to say to them be careful how you describe that because you might hurt their feelings."

Ms Kane told the parliament that statistics showed youth crime had remained at the same level for a decade.

"What's happening in other debates we have heard is a generalisation against young people all over Scotland," she said.

"These same young people have been badly let down. They have been pushed to the wall for decades and some of them are now the parents of young people we are now hearing concerns about.

"That is the result of poverty."

However, Labour's Duncan McNeill said that the word ned was used to refer to young criminals rather than all young people.

'Pharmaceutical consultants'

He said: "What are we supposed to call them - the guys that hang about the streets? Tracksuit ambassadors?

"Shoplifters as retail stock relocation operatives?

"Drug dealers as independent pharmaceutical consultants? What are we to call them?"

Ms Kane replied: "To call young people neds, drug dealers, shoplifters or any other thing is a huge assumption. They are young people."

In 2001 the word ned entered the Concise Oxford Dictionary, defined as a hooligan or petty criminal, a stupid or loutish boy or man.

I seriously suggest everyone clicks that link and reads it.

Neds have as much a place in the history of British/Scottish youth culture as Mods, Rockers, Punks, Casuals, New Romantics, Indie Kids, Goths and the like - cultures which are usually typified by the clothes that they wear and the music they listen to.

My daughter (12) and her friend (11) were spat at, sworn at and generally intimidated in the High Street in Edinburgh by a gang of the very type of JJB sports-wearing goons Rosie Kane is asking us to respect.

The reason for this harangue? The girls were wearing black baggy clothes and Nirvana and Foo Fighters T-shirts. "Ned" is far too polite a word for these people.
Neil, Scotland

sorry

Elsewhere on the thread: hey, dig DJ Martian's racist jibe at Nathalie!

nath: FYI, the BNP is our equivalent of Vlaams Blok.

Blame the parents, blame the schools, the first bit of Johnson's comment sounds suspiciously like lyrics from early nineties Fraggle bargain-binners Back to the Planet. But the second part is essentially correct imho - this is what Rosie should be concentrating on.

The argument that 'ned' is only used of poor people who are nuisances reminds me of neo-nazi's attempts to use the n-word - claiming it doesn't refer to all black people, only those who don't work or commit crime.

Oh, c'mon Kevin, that's ridiculous. The example you give abuses a whole race of ppl who had already suffered terrible oppression. You can't compare a term which is sufficiently nebulous as to lead to debate as to whether an individual belongs to the grouping or not with one which unambiguously abuses an entire racial group.

One thing that strikes me about the rise of the BNP and the fall of the National Front is a play for respectability - the National Front bought out mainstream images of skinheads and graffiti on public toilets, the BNP is characterised by the suited, educated Nick Griffin who appears on Newsnight, and reports about Jewish (!) candidates.

But the refusal of mainstream Britain to accept them (BBC newsreader's faces still frown when they mention the BNP, they are only to be spoken of in a tone of high disapproval) pleases me, even if their attitudes and support are being fuelled by the same people (the Sun, the Mail, the Express) that would otherwise decry them. This strikes me as being a far greater problem - sooner or later Griffin won't be saying anything other than what you can read in any tabloid newspaper - maybe he already is.

There speaks someone who has no idea what he's talking about.

However, Labour's Duncan McNeill said that the word ned was used to refer to young criminals rather than all young people.

He said: "What are we supposed to call them - the guys that hang about the streets? Tracksuit ambassadors?

Thus undermining his whole point. Twat.

It's this conflation of clothing and criminality that's where the crap starts.

Ach, I said all this already on the making fun of poor people thread.

Bingo!

(this isn't a rhetorical question - I'm interested)

But there are (for instance) very very posh kids in north london who dress and act this way. I don't know if they are criminals, I expect even if they committed crimes they wouldn't be labelled criminals, unlike their working class counterparts.

As far as I can see no one is saying that you should, other than 'labour's duncan mcneil'

actually, i do know what you mean, neds are kind of anti-social but not necessarily involved in crime to the extent they could be seriously labelled 'criminals'.

People who are playing the 'you don't know what you're talking about, you haven't lived it' card don't seem to all agree about what it means themselves, which is why I tend to find that card so lame in arguments.

i suppose that some people get frustrated with being told they can't use certain words by people who know very little about the culture they're trying to defend (for example that it isn't a solely working class phenom)

You're right of course but I only know what it means to me and the people I grew up with - I don't think I was even aware of the term until my early teens, which is when kids start taking their separate directions in life. You know, you become a "swat" because you're good in school, he said bitterly.

Really depressing.

How do you think the working/middle (i.e. those above the criminal classes you mention) classes would react to vulnerable asylum seekers being put into "good" areas, with nice houses and gardens? The redtops would have a field day with that one. Those in Sighthill may be exhibiting a nimby mentality, but then again many the poor bastards don't even *have* back yards. It's a ridiculous area for anyone to have to live in, whether they're fleeing oppresion or not.