Johnny Depp: Cool or Fool?

it seems to be clarifying the acceptable contexts and uses of misogyny in the public arena

It’s been very hard to follow. It’s like seeing your deepest fears about not believed dug up, mocked and broadcast to the world at large. My heart goes out to her. I’m absolutely 100% done listening to people go “but, but, but both sides” after the last two weeks. If you can somehow see:

- Depp losing a libel case in fucking England against the Sun, which won the right to call him a wife beater based on the evidence provided
- Depp & his then lawyer leaking edited recordings to the Daily Mail (does that seem like something reasonable to do?)
- the fact that this case has levels of evidence and witnesses far beyond what you get in most cases like this

and all the rest of this sordid little tale, and STILL focus on the fact that “idk she punched him too” or some shit? Honestly, go fuck your self, if there’s no proof that’s enough, don’t bother telling yourself you care about women ever again. I don’t care how harsh this seems, this case has dug up a lot of old stuff for me and others I care deeply about. Among those revelations? My very long habit of taking screenshots and keeping proof of things because I worry about not being believed. How nice if you don’t have to think about this or have anything like that surface for you!

Weirdly enough when I started seeing the lashing out on Amber I also thought about how women on fictional shows are also hated on. Skylar on Breaking Bad who left Walter or Betty in Mad Men who is really disliked (all via twitter).

I saw an absolutely devastating essay by Andrea Dworkin about Nicole Simpson linked, that I’d never read before, and it’s been very clarifying of stuff I felt or saw but didn’t have the words for.

You won’t ever know the worst that happened to Nicole Brown Simpson in her marriage, because she is dead and cannot tell you. And if she were alive, remember, you wouldn’t believe her.

Nicole Simpson, like every battered woman, knew she would not be believed. She may have been shrewd enough to anticipate the crowds along the Orange County freeways cheering on O.J. Every battered woman has to be careful, even with strangers. His friends won’t stop him. Neither will yours.

I have no trouble conceiving of or believing that Depp -- who turned himself into an absurd mash-up of his transgressive heroes years ago -- abused Heard. The one thing I will say about Heard being a champion of human rights, as that article attests, is that it's difficult to square that with her being close friends with Eve Barlow.

This conversation stems from a piece published earlier this week, which seems premature.

"But the extreme brutality of what Heard alleges—coupled with an utter lack of independent corroboration."

We haven't heard her witnesses yet!! We don't know yet if she has corroboration or not. This really isn't an appropriate thing to say when only one side has presented.

— Lucia Osborne-Crowley (@LuciaOC_) May 17, 2022

I have no trouble conceiving of or believing that Depp -- who turned himself into an absurd mash-up of his transgressive heroes years ago -- abused Heard. The one thing I will say about Heard being a champion of human rights, as that article attests, is that it's difficult to square that with her being close friends with Eve Barlow.

xp wow I had not seen that and it’s a lot to put out there when some of Depp’s own witnesses provided corroboration. I hope Natalie Shure goes to hell.

xp wow I had not seen that and it’s a lot to put out there when some of Depp’s own witnesses provided corroboration. I hope Natalie Shure goes to hell.

xp wow I had not seen that and it’s a lot to put out there when some of Depp’s own witnesses provided corroboration. I hope Natalie Shure goes to hell.

ty zing that was very helpful

it is galling to watch ostensibly liberal/feminist ppl on my tl participate in this ghoulish defense of depp, im so sorry gyac

part of me wonders if it's misguided reminders that men can be abused (which is true!). but...this is v much not the case to use as your Exhibit A.

Reporting from Vice shows that at least some of the misogynist disinformation campaign surrounding the Depp v. Heard trial has been funded by the right-wing Daily Wire. https://t.co/J5ZU6gEQ2i

— Moira Donegan (@MoiraDonegan) May 20, 2022

I haven't seen or heard a word of this trial, and no one in my tl is defending Depp so apparently my media bubble is not representative, because I hear the internet is currently a swamp of Depp-stans spreading suspicious amounts of "proof" everywhere.

I def started out with the vague impression from years-old headlines that maybe he was the/a victim, men can be victims of dv too, and no knowledge of the libel case or anything in the UK news. But seeing gyac and plenty of others absolutely blazing over this, I realize that was lazy/dumb of me. I repent. The Rebecca Ruiz article (thanks, gyac) is really scary. I had no idea other celebrities were being propped up to weaponize their influence like that.

I have read more about it than I originally intended to, partly because I had thought that the purpose of this trial was to determine whether or not AH's op-ed about being a survivor of dv cost him his Jack Sparrow gig. If that is the case, then it almost doesn't matter who did what to whom during the marriage, only whether she can suggest that the Disney lawyers and the other business people would have dropped him anyway. But I guess it must encompass more than that or the judge is doing a terrible job of keeping everyone on topic.

It’s quite something. It’s not difficult for me to see how you might pal around with someone as odious as Fartlow if your industry and colleagues are either seemingly outright mocking you, silent, or openly or covertly supporting Depp.

I have read more about it than I originally intended to, partly because I had thought that the purpose of this trial was to determine whether or not AH's op-ed about being a survivor of dv cost him his Jack Sparrow gig. If that is the case, then it almost doesn't matter who did what to whom during the marriage, only whether she can suggest that the Disney lawyers and the other business people would have dropped him anyway. But I guess it must encompass more than that or the judge is doing a terrible job of keeping everyone on topic.

Earlier, Depp’s longtime agent told a court that the star was an exceedingly “difficult” client who had “fundamental anger issues” and drew multiple complaints from film crews on “virtually every movie” he worked on.

Tracey Jacobs, of United Talent Agency, represented Depp as his agent for three decades until he cut ties with her in October 2016.

Ms Jacobs’ prerecorded video deposition was played at Depp’s defamation trial against his ex-wife Amber Heard in Fairfax County Court, Virginia, on Thursday.

Ms Jacobs testified that Depp became “the biggest star in the world” during the time they worked together. At first, she did not consider him to be a “difficult client”, she said. But that changed dramatically during her last 10 years of representing him when his “unprofessional behaviour … became far more complicated”, Ms Jacobs added.

it almost doesn't matter who did what to whom during the marriage

What is this verdict

$2 million awarded back to Heard for this verdict — which in itself contradicts the jury’s prior finding that Heard’s statements in the op-ed about her experience of abuse were false. Messy messy jury. https://t.co/433W3ffAF5

— southpaw (@nycsouthpaw) June 1, 2022

pic.twitter.com/EejuOTt4wa

— Law Boy, Esq. (@The_Law_Boy) June 1, 2022

It’s been gut wrenching to follow this and watch the wholesale demonization of Heard on the one hand and the canonization of Depp on the other.

hope any comeback attempts by Depp following this flop hard and he ends in disgrace and obscurity

On my end the slutshaming has come from women.

It's def a pursuit that transcends gender lines

I guess it must be nice to not see the huge outpouring of male glee at this verdict. Yes, there’s tons of women shaming us all with their behaviour - a lot of people have drawn comparisons to the Bundy fans - but this verdict is being celebrated by men. A Twitter mutual of mine had to lock her account because of the amount of abusive messages out there gloating at her. So no, I have very little time for this atm.

Of course structural misogyny expresses itself thru women as well as men, but the awkward conversation I had with a couple of women friends last night who were on Depp's side was at least a bit more nuanced than the garbage that I've heard from male DV deniers

my gf has been watching this playout and had become somewhat sympathetic towards Depp as it went on. did the jury get it wrong? or is the issue more about people's reactions – that maybe the decision is correct but it doesn't absolve Depp of other problematic things?
would appreciate some clarity, as I've only gotten superficial updates on what's been going on and I'm weary of any summaries i might read in the media – or even from friends.

You can scroll up and read what I wrote about it on the 20th, post should still be there.

cheers

Actually I’m on a train for the next hour, let’s nail these theses to the door. Fair warning this is going to be all over the place, I know too much about this case.

- Depp filed a defamation case over this article, where only this part refers to him, arguing that it defamed him and affected his earnings.
- if you haven’t read the 2018 Rolling Stone article, you should. He invited the publication to give his side, thinking it would make him look good.
- Heard countersued him over the defamation claim, iirc this is standard. Her claim was about a Daily Mail article where Depp’s lawyer accused her and her friends of faking a crime scene.

If you have been on the internet the past few years, you’ve almost certainly seen the various trending topics about him trending. It has been alleged - and iirc in this case just gone evidenced- that a large part of this activity is bots boosting an unusually large and aggressive fanbase.

A large part of why Depp has so much sympathy going in is in part due to him being the more famous party and having appeared in more films people have seen and loved *;another is due to his then lawyer leaking selectively edited evidence to the Daily Mail, which he admitted to in court and was subsequently thrown off the case for; and finally, mens’ rights activists have been rallying around this case for years and pushing disinfo about it. The edited clip most people have heard is part of a large and not pleasant argument but the context is extremely different from what has been portrayed.

Then there’s the trial itself. Depp wanted it to be held in Virginia, for the possibility of it being televised. Tons of content creators pivoted to following the trial and made lots of money of doing so, covering it like it was entertainment.

Here things are slightly hazy as I’m not that knowledgeable about the legal parts but as I understand it: the judge on this case prevented certain evidence of Heard’s being submitted to the court. Accounts of her talking about being abused by Depp in doctor’s notes were considered hearsay and not included; neither were the texts from Depp’s assistant where he is apologising to Heard for Depp kicking her and trying to get her to stay. I had read the UK judgement and seeing Depp’s witnesses, the majority of whom still work for him, and the picture coming through was of someone who was surrounded by staff that went to great lengths to protect him from the consequences of his own actions.

I read a piece on the BBC saying that certain tactics that are used in certain cases are more effective with juries than judges:

Mark Stephens, an international media lawyer, told the BBC that it's "very rare" that essentially the same case is tried on two sides of the pond and gets different results.

He believes the main factor that influenced Mr Depp's victory in America was the fact that his US trial was before a jury while his UK trial, over an article in the British tabloid that called him a "wife-beater", was before a judge only.

"Amber Heard has comprehensively lost in the court of public opinion, and in front of the jury," he said.
Three questions from the Depp-Heard trial answered
Depp wins defamation case against Heard
In both the UK and the US trial, Mr Depp's lawyers argued that Ms Heard was lying - to make their case, they attacked her character and claimed that she was in fact the abusive partner.

This is a common defence tactic in sexual assault and domestic violence trials called "deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender" or "Darvo", said Mr Stephens.

The strategy turns the tables on the alleged victim, shifting the conversation away from "did the accused commit abuse" to "is the alleged victim believable".
"They deny that they did anything, they deny they're the real perpetrator, and they attack the credibility of the individual calling out the abuse, and then reverse the roles of the victim and the offender," Mr Stephens said.

In the UK trial, Mr Stephens said the judge recognised that strategy, and dismissed a lot of the evidence that did not directly address whether Mr Depp committed assault or not.

"Lawyers and judges tend not to fall for it, but it's very, very effective against juries," he said. Men are more likely to believe Darvo arguments, but female jurors are also susceptible.

"People have a paradigm in their mind of how a victim of abuse might be like and how they might behave, and of course we all know that's often false."

“His star had dimmed due to it getting harder to get him jobs given the reputation he had acquired due to his lateness and other things,” Jacobs said, adding that “people were talking” about his substance abuse.

A Disney executive, Tina Newman, testified in another tape played on Thursday that the Rolling Stone article circulated among executives at the studio that would decide whether or not to greenlight another Pirates sequel, the sixth, and whether Depp would have a role in the movie. In an internal Disney email, Newman called the story “depressing.”

Post is a mess but tl;dr:

- Heard had lots of evidence
- case seemed to turn on how much the jury liked both parties rather than the evidence
- you have to ignore and dismiss an awful lot of that to come down on Depp’s side and well, an awful lot of people did!

that is super helpful thanks. i don't follow celebrity gossip at all (general rather loathe it normally) - so anything that assumes i have any clue what Depp is known or rumoured to be like will be lost on me.

case seemed to turn on how much the jury liked both parties rather than the evidence

ime this is what nearly all verdicts in civil cases come down to.

At least in the US.

great post gyac, I've tried my hardest to ignore everything about this (outside of its striking resemblance to the On Cinema trial) but it's dawned on me quickly that this is just another Kyle Rittenhouse culture war thing. the degree to which social media has been pushing this story (especially Twitter) is really gross. it's all weird to me because I remember an article some time ago (maybe 2017?) that went into detail about how fucked up Depp was, basically alleging that he'd done some horrible shit, and that most of his success came despite himself. who the fuck are all these people rallying around him now?? it's so weird.

One poster today on FB talked about how the pro-Heard bent is fronted by media bias. As if Depp's "innocence" wasn't pushed in the media as received wisdom for over a year.

You're saying the same things as Jim Jordan and fucking Ben Shapiro

Thanks for that post, gyac. Among other things I've been trying to remember for the past few weeks where I read an utterly damning profile of Depp a few years ago. It was the RS one you linked and having retained its broad themes, I've been pretty baffled by what's been going on during the trial

people remembered how much they liked Jack Sparrow, including the jury

Hollywood has always specialized in covering up the crimes of its starring actors.

xp
there is def a generational dynamic here: for me Jack Sparrow represented a sad decline from the actor I enjoyed when I was younger, not a beloved character from my childhood. i.e., another part of my confusion was why anyone was invested in this depressing addict who squandered his talent decades ago

that's definitely true (the generational dynamic).

I also wonder how many people are determined to make the (correct) point that men suffer abuse too, in order to appear more impartial in discussions, and this case looked like low-hanging fruit (see? I side with men sometime!)

god, what a terrible case to use as your anecdotal lede

two of my friends who are women who were battered by their spouses and still tortured by them even after divorce were pointing out that between the two of them, Heard was the one who looked like she was 'reacting to abuse', moreso than Depp.

yeah I read a first-person account of getting suckered by the soc med coverage of the trial that I can't find now, but the (female) writer admitted that the "men too" angle was important

Michael Hobbes (@rottenindenmark) on Twitter posted a piece about this.

By 2014, Heard was the only person in his life who told him the truth about his anger and his drug problem — a “lesbian camp counselor,” as he once memorably put it. He grew increasingly resentful that she treated him like an addict and an abuser, something his mind would not allow him to accept. His texts to her were apologetic, but his messages to everyone else were unrepentant.

267. Mr Depp said that Ms Heard behaved cruelly towards him at this time and withheld drugs from him that he was allowed or were intended to contribute to his recovery process. I have no doubt that the process of trying to rid himself of the addiction to Roxies was extremely stressful and painful for Mr Depp. However, I have seen notes made by Ms Lloyd. It is apparent from these that Ms Heard (referred to in the notes as ‘patient’s fiancée’) was keeping in close contact with Ms Lloyd and, after his arrival on the island, with Dr Kipper. There is no evidence that she did attempt to withhold from him any medication that he was supposed to have.

In his text to Paige Heard, Ms Heard’s mother, on 19th August 2014 Mr Depp said (see file 6/119/697.41),
‘I couldn’t have made it without her ... I would have gone for a swim and swallowed a big drink of ocean without her to be honest ... It was a hell of my own doing that your little girl walked through with me step by step ... I know you’re already proud of her, but if you’d seen her in action ... Amazing!!! It was an exercise of monumental patience and instinct. I wouldn’t be alive, sweetheart ... There were more than a few times when I thought it would be more simple to take that route. It was Amber and Amber only that got me through this ... And it was not easy ...’

268. On 17th August 2014 Ms Heard sent a text to Ms Lloyd and Dr Kipper which said (See file 6/119/f697.38),
‘Issue has arisen again. He took the meds about 30 mins ago (which seems to be the trend) as I reckon they haven’t kicked in yet – all of a sudden he’s flipping again. Just started screaming – he was so mad he pushed me and I asked him to get out. Don’t know what else to do. Sorry to keep at you guys.’

269. Mr Depp said that he had been in no condition to push or attack Ms Heard in any way. He said the text from Ms Heard could be explained as part of her ‘insurance policy’.

270. It was Mr Depp’s evidence that Ms Heard was withholding drugs that he was supposed to have or allowed to have, although he said that she did not do this all of the time and at other times she was very helpful.

It was a vicious cycle of Depp's PR push being picked up by the incel/"metoo has gone too far" crowd and once it was trending then every dumbass on social media had to pump out content to get on the trend and all of their initial info came via Depp's PR team and the incels and that getting filtered down to normal people who are unlikely to do any deeper research unless they (think they) have a good reason.

Michael hobbes was a guest on a podcast talking abt the whole Depp trial & the misinformation surrounding it
podcast is terribly named “Cancel Me Daddy” but he is great as always

https://www.readthepresentage.com/p/johnny-depp-amber-heard?s=r

I linked that a few posts ago.

oh sorry!