Weed, depression and schizophrenia

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Quick schizophrenia question:

Is it possible to “become” schizophrenic or are all schizophrenics born that way, with their affliction brought into the open by a traumatic event? Can a terrible experience “turn” someone schizophrenic, or were they probably always that way? Is it possible to be schizophrenic your whole life without exhibiting any symptoms, or are the symptoms the only evidence of the illness?

Sorry, that’s really one question framed three different ways! All assistance much appreciated anyway.

It's caused by like capitalism and shit

ta!

I read somewhere that schizophrenia commonly first manifests itself in late adolescence or early/mid twenties, but of course i am not a doctor or medical professional any sort so don't take my word as gosepl, here.

Fortunately, schizophrenia is rare in children, affecting only about 1 in 40,000, compared to 1 in 100 in adults. The average age of onset is 18 in men and 25 in women. Ranking among the top 10 causes of disability in developed countries worldwide, schizophrenia, at any age, exacts a heavy toll on patients and their families. Children with schizophrenia experience difficulty in managing everyday life. They share with their adult counterparts hallucinations, delusions, social withdrawal, flattened emotions, increased risk of suicide and loss of social and personal care skills. They may also share some symptoms with—and be mistaken for—children who suffer from autism or other pervasive developmental disabilities, which affect about 1 in 500 children. Although they tend to be harder to treat and have a worse prognosis than adult-onset schizophrenia patients, researchers are finding that many children with schizophrenia can be helped by the new generation of anti-psychotic medications.

Additional Resources for Childhood-Onset Schizophrenia

your first two questions don't have definite answers. as to your third question, it doesn't seem possible to be schizophrenic yet asymptomatic, as the diagnosis is made based on symptoms.

most think that schizophrenia is a combination of genetic predisposition and environmental stress, but you kind of assume that in your question i guess?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diathesis-stress_model

i had a friend who "went schizo" freshman year of college, was always sort of a quiet weird dude who got into the shower in all of his clothes one day and then disappeared for a weekend. hes on meds now, gained a lot of weight, a lot slower (physically, mentally), but not "crazy" and maybe less weird than he was before.

he blames weed, btw.

I have strong suspicions about the onset of dissociative schizophrenia being due to environmental factors...partic fear, shame, etc. But I don't know what establishment is saying these days.

Heyayayay.........

I'm no expert, but I believe that it's often a stressful period which triggers the first full-on schizophrenic breakdown at which point the classic symptoms start, usually in/around the early 20s for guys and a little later for women. Before that point a lot of future sufferers are withdrawn and/or depressive, but so are a lot of other non-schizophrenic kids, obviously. I've wondered before if it would be possible to be one of the people who would've been pushed into full-on schizophrenia by a stressful episode but never get pushed hard enough, and I don't have an answer to that.

A friend with schizophrenia recommended to me a while ago this website, which is a bit wordy but I found very interesting on the "prodrome" stage. (That's a good word to google for more information about some of your other questions too, I think; I have heard of some work trying to determine whether it can be diagnosed in the pre-breakdown stages, but I don't know how successful or widely accepted this has been.)

Smoke weed every day.

http://www.bmi.com/images/musicworld/n/nate_dogg__500.jpg

Is it generally accepted that once diagnosed the condition is treatable but permanent? I should think if the condish was spurred by environment, it ought to be possible to re-integrate with therapy/help if you started promptly.

a couple of years ago, a doctor from new zealand (along with another psychiatrist) cause a huge brouhaha by releasing the results of a small study which showed that 2/3rds of schizophrenic patients had suffered ongoing abuse (sexual, i believe) as children. i think he also reviewed a number of other studies in which most of the patients had reported abuse during childhood. however, it was a really tiny study and it seemed like the drs definitely had an agenda.

(tiny = 40 patients, which is miniscule)

okay, so i had depression in college (about 12 years ago) and i was using a lot of marijuana and lsd. like, the first daily, and the second weekly. for, maybe, half a year? and eventually i had something *like* a schizophrenic breakdown. what i was diagnosed with, though, was something called "schizoaffective disorder", which presented a lot like schizophrenia but which the doctors said was linked to the depression. they gave me a mix of medications that are used for depression, social anxiety and psychosis. they also put me in therapy. i've been in and out of therapy (cognitive behavioral) since then but i've scaled the medication back to a single medication for depression in a low dose. sure enough, as the depression got better the schizophrenic symptoms gradually faded away. the only time they ever came back was when the depression got worse, and with more therapy i was able to think my way through those symptoms. so i don't really expect it to ever come back, as long as i work at keeping my depressive tendencies in check.

i'm not a doctor or a public health official or anything, so i have no idea how common my situation is.

Vahid, that sounds like pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Tanks u.

A friend of mine was once diagnosed with "dissociative schizophrenia" which, since he already FELT crazy and was TERRIFIED he was actually going crazy, only served to freak him out about 400% more, since it was presented as inevitable and irreversible. It wasn't any of those things. I basically hate the mental health system.

Hate the player not the game, Laurel.

Tru.

i think schizophrenia is misdiagnosed a LOT, especially with people who do lots of hallucinogens.

your friend's bad experience doesn't mean that schizophrenia doesn't exist, though, or that it's a temporary condition that can be dealt with the right amount of stick-to-it'veness.

xpost to laurel

ha ha ha. i should tell my story. basically my roommates had to take me to the emergency room because i hurt myself. the people at the emergency room made me SWEAR to go the university health care the next day. i went to the clinic at 9 am and spoke to a resident. he was very sympathetic, and referred me to his boss who was in a different office in the same system. that guy was really sympathetic too. he told me he understood how i felt and that he wanted me to speak to his friend at the local hospital. he even bought me a cab fare! i went to the hospital and spoke to the friend, who was a psychiatrist. that guy sent me to the emergency room, where an attending psychiatrist talked to me. at this point, i had seen 4 people. then, that psychiatrist called for a nurse, who coaxed me onto a stretcher. she strapped me into the stretcher, pushed me into the hallway and left.

i was by myself, strapped to a stretcher, in an empty hallway attached to the emergency room. for at least thirty minutes. then suddenly the doors banged open and the two biggest nurses i've ever seen came in. they were men, and had handcuffs and pepper spray on their belts. they looked like cops in nurse outfits. they took off my belt and said they were going to chain me to stretcher. they said not to resist. i asked, totally hypothetically, what they'd do if i resisted. they explained the practice and theory of hog-tying a prisoner, then gave me a really powerful shot in the arm of something or other, and then put me in a really scary ambulance w/ blacked-out windows. then as they drove me to a residential care facility they took away my phone, shoes, keys, wallet and backpack.

scary!

that was basically the most scary thing that had ever happened to me in my entire life up to that point, happening at the exact lowest moment of my entire life up to that point. something essentially fucked about a system that works like that!

dude, you were KIDNAPPED.

though i guess when you say "i hurt myself" there might be some slight omission there...?

yeah that sounds like enough to trigger a psychotic episode in anyone! jeez

the good news was that they said i'd have a lot in common w/ my roommate, and put me in a room w/ an iranian physics professor who was having the same sort of problems as me. actually that was bad, it made me think all sorts of crazy thoughts!! and there were no doors for the bathroom, only a sheer curtain for privacy, and who wants to be in that situation with someone twice your age?

in retrospect, yes, i was clearly a danger to myself and others at that point but still, at the time i was convinced these dudes were taking me to a CIA prison or something

Yeah, definitely pretty scary dude.

Oh nonono I am SURE it exists, Lauren. I just think it's terrifying to think you're losing your mind and wonder how much depression + that could tip people over.

iranian physics professor

whoa

i bet he'd be fun to trip with

Damn, that's a hell of a story, MSJTB! About the scariest form of helping imaginable. Jeez, you're lucky to have kept your shit more-or-less organized.

I was worried I was losing my mind for a while in my mid-20s, but nothing to compare w/that. I'd been smoking weed all day every for about a decade at that point, and I guess my poor brane just couldn't take it anymore. (Worst it ever got was fear and hemp clothing, really.)

one of my friends thinks she's going schizophrenic

contenderizer i... i'm sorry

If you say you hear things you can get diagnosed as schizo. But drugs, even weed, can make muffled noises sound different. A lot of people who are diagnosed schizo have to suffer with horrible medication that is just as bad for them as the drugs. The medicine also increases the suicide rate.

And yes I think you can become schizophrenic by smoking pot and getting paranoia all the time. But not like seeing mud monsters schizophrenic.

i think something to be stressed is, don't diagnose yourself with schizophrenia. let a doctor do that. (to latebloomer's friend and others)

i want to speak a little more on this, for no other reason than just it's an issue in my family. we have *no* history of schizophrenia in our family but if i look at the people in my grandparents' generation (26 people), a little more than half have anxiety disorders or clinical depression.

now, what is interesting is that my paternal grandfather's sister just moved to america from iran. she's in her late 70s, not healthy, doesn't speak english. it's a big change, and her anxiety level has gone through the roof. and she's started to complain about rats in the walls, hallucinating ants in her bed, seeing people stalking her and following her, and so on. and she's not on ANY drugs.

i guess i'm saying BE *MENTALLY* HEALTHY and excellent and try to get help w/ your baggage, because behavioral or mental (or substance abuse) problems can start to look a whole lot like schizophrenia if they're unchecked or untreated

she's in her late 70s, not healthy, doesn't speak english. it's a big change, and her anxiety level has gone through the roof. and she's started to complain about rats in the walls, hallucinating ants in her bed, seeing people stalking her and following her, and so on. and she's not on ANY drugs.

bell labs otm here, and it would similarly perhaps be valuable for J0hnD or someone possessing a little more clinical experience in these areas to emphasize the wisdom in not relying on self-diagnoses or laymans' speculations...

that being said, the above could maybe be stress-induced dementia? I had an elderly relative, who after her husband died was living in an assisted-living environment and began to accuse workers and other residents of stealing her possessions and the like.

that being said, it sounds like that could be stress-aggravated dementia type-thing?

To answer original question, here is a good forum on schizophrenia that is part of a PBS "American Experience" website re: their John Nash episode. Especially notable are the comments by Robert Whitaker, author of Mad in America, which explores the history of schizophrenia and its treatment. His section on reducing stereotypes of the schizophrenic has a lot of uncommonly wise advice.

And yes I think you can become schizophrenic by smoking pot and getting paranoia all the time. But not like seeing mud monsters schizophrenic.

From what I understand, auditory hallucinations are much more a signature component to schizophrenia, then are visual ones. And I don't think smoking pot or experimenting with hallucinogens per se will bring on schizoprenia unless a person has a latent, preexisting disposition towards contracting the disorder.

Also, I'm if I'm not mistaken, in the past decade plus or so, there has been much re-evalution of symptoms which have resulted in many previous conditions which would previously have been diagnosed as schizophrenia as falling more somehwheres on a bipolar spectrum. I think there is still no small amount of contention as far as this goes. Weird continuum....In many cases, the labeling seems to become arbitrary

A friend of mine went schizo in his 20s. He was on psych meds and he was well aware that he had problems, but he didn't have health insurance and couldn't afford the meds w/o help, so eventually they stopped giving them to him. Then the voices and shit came back and told him that he needed to do something to impress this girl he liked but who had no idea who he was so he ran over some dude in his car and killed him. Now he's getting the meds he needs and is permanently hospitalized. He gets out for periods for visitations, but they have to be well-planned, I guess.

The weird thing is that I drifted away from him before the diagnosis, but the one time I saw him in 1996 I knew that something was wrong with him. I just didn't know what it was. I email him sometimes, but it's difficult figuring out how to respond to him.

friend of the family went schizo (<--- supposedly) very young. like, in her teens. she was adopted from india, and it was speculated that they had gotten her age wrong due to malnutrition, so give/take a couple years. she was in and out of managed care for a few years, and was eventually doing well living at home with her mother and a caretaker. this, despite the fact that she still had visions of ill figures that encouraged her to kill her mother. interestingly/tragically (interesting/tragic being a cornerstone of schizophrenia, imho), the ring-leader of the menagerie that kept her company was the guy that ran her orphanage in india.

about two years ago she told her caretaker she was getting a glass of water, slipped into the garage and locked the door. doused herself with lawnmower gasoline and lit herself on fire. she died about a month later in ICU.

the general reaction from everyone close to her (including mom) was a mixture of grief and relief. "now she's at peace," etc. :-/

I wonder to what degree there have been ethnographic studies involving treatment of people evidencing schizophrenic symptoms. By that I mean, (and I don't mean to set off people's PC-alarms here), but given that a large number of people exhibiting schizophrenic symptoms complain about being assaulted by demonic forces and so forth, I wonder how efficacious the record proves as far as indigenous shamans treating these conditions. (Since, as I understand it, when shamans treat other, strictly physical, at least from a modern Western view of diseases, there seems to be all manner of reportage of conflicts on other planes with malevolent forces and so forth...)

Also, for people who are less lazy then me about googling this sort of thing, what is the whole deal about schizophrenia supposedly occuring more in industrial societies as opposed to "pre-industrial" ones? Haven't there been claims in the past that it's more a disease of post-industrial societies? Obviously, this would bring into question all manner of other factors such as diagnostic methods and different cultural standards and whatnot, but still, I'm curious...

nitrous makes things sound burley as fuck

You should read Mad in America, dell, it's incredible and would answer a lot of your questions. Well, the ones in the second paragraph. I am left dumb by Terrence McKenna-style shaman ideas.

Additionally about weed and schizophrenia: the reason I quit smoking weed is I've got my own little cocktail of psychological curiosities, tho not schizophrenia. And I was having this huge breakdown that almost lead to me getting fired. (Why didn't I get fired? I quit.) So I called up my comforting, rational friend whose brother is schizophrenic. I got lots of hugs and he told me, "You know, my brother does a lot better when he's not smoking weed and having only a few drinks a week. The moment he starts smoking or drinking too much, those have been the times preceding his hospitalizations." I mean, that makes sense. We don't know well at all how weed OR mental illness works, but I know for anyone playing too hard isn't helpful. And there was a correlation in my life, and things ARE far more manageable when I'm not getting high.

Thank you for the recommendation. Based a brief google search, it sounds provocative.

I like Terence McKenna's books, but in invoking the word shamanic, I guess I am thinking more of anecdotes of Ibogaine helping people abandon hard drug addictions, or some of the literature about Ayahuasca...Some of that stuff is mighty impressive as far as addiction issues and more garden-variety neuroses, but I don't know much about any of those cultures' approaches towards treating schizophrenics.

It seems like one of those ailments that Western medicine still has only a confused grasp on...I think the best book I've ever read on the subject was Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.'s son's book, The Eden Express.

In the Vonnegut book, there is a postscript where he offers the opinion that weed is not so good for people at risk for the stuff that he suffered throughout the bulk of his narrative (and he also singles out caffeine out as a no-no), but also remarks that judicious use of alcohol can be beneficial...

OTOH, I know people who smoke weed and it seems to genuinely benefit their mental health. As someone who doesn't seem to have a great relationship with weed, particularly, I sometimes envy those folks.

i have some anxiety issues and moderate weed use helps them way more than benzos ever have

Here's a very thoughtful comic by Chester Brown, "My Mother Was Schizophrenic" that discusses some shamanic ideas posited throughout the years, among many other hypotheses. A few panels (tho the whole thing can be found via the link):

http://www.twohandedman.com/Interviews/Chester/Images/SchizExper2_10.gif

and

http://www.twohandedman.com/Interviews/Chester/Images/SchizExper5_09.gif

and

http://www.twohandedman.com/Interviews/Chester/Images/SchizExper6_04.gif

i have some anxiety issues and moderate weed use helps them way more than benzos ever have

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I guess it doesn't help that there are so many strains of weed out there? Some stuff makes me feel silly and eventually sleepy, and seems more benign, whereas other times it's made me feel wackadoodle (in a bad way) and unable to sleep. I think the more powerful NoCal strains are more agreeable with me? Seriously, does anyone have any recommendations as to what is better in that respect? And does it all just come down to THC levels or something?

I think alcohol has its health benefits when used very moderately. But mixing meds and alcohol is like a cocktail for emotional breakdowns from what everyone says. That being said, I still drink to a limit. But I blame weed for lots of my anxiety. Even though I quit. In the past I kept smoking it even though I knew I would get anxious every time. That has to hurt you mentally when you are sending self-destructive signals to your brain.

Lots of people loosen up with weed. It's different for everyone. But if you get anxiety than it's not worth it. You might have a predisposition for schizophrenia, and weed increases your chances of getting it by a lot.

I hate people that say people with mental illnesses are just making it up.

Wull, I know that sometimes people downplay anxiety or depresso in others, but I can't imagine people accusing folks who are suffering from more dramatic(?) manifestations as faking it

If I am one of those people who are just constitutionally incapable of smoking weed and feeling mellow, then I just wish that some other magical plant would make itself known which would allow me to navigate through this world and feel more at ease about receiving strange signals from wherever, or whatever my condition is. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the western psychological/pharmaceutical model, and if it works for you, then by all means run with it, but I'm still in search of the holy grail in that respect.

'Cause I would gladly take some IV drip of Cymbalta or whatever, if that works, but in the meantime, I feel like I'm drifting in space without the appropriate capsule. Or root. Or leaf. Or rhizome, or what have you.

Haha my side effects are like drifting off into a cloudland.

I am feeling great with my combination of meds right now. But it was a pain trying different combinations over the years. I take some wellbutrin and zoloft in the morning and seroquel at night to help me sleep. All pretty low amounts. Seroquel is actually a medication that can be used for schizophrenia. I've never gone off of it since I cracked 6 years ago because it's never done me wrong. Granted I am not erratic anymore and my original "schizoaffective disorder" was just the dr.'s worrying too much. I have anxiety/depression but I never really feel sad about anything.. I'm more of a worrier. All in all, I have been pretty damn sane for a long time now, and I'm pretty sure I seem just as normal and happy as other people.

It took a mindless suicide attempt 6 years ago to make me appreciate life 50 x more.

Cool. That's admirable.

Don't let the shit drag you down. I mean, you could, in theory, but it's not worth it.

That Chester Brown comic infuriates me! My mom's a schizophrenic too. She lives in a rotting trailer in the middle of the northern MN woods, convinced that her phones, walls, and car are bugged, and that her dentist flies airplanes over her house several times a day to keep track of her. She's completely miserable. She's not experiencing some alternative mode of being, and she's certainly not on a fucking voyage to heal the alienation of social normalcy! By everyone's account, she was a genius in childhood and adolescence, with deep and passionate interests that she was able to pursue and enjoy. Now all she's capable of is underlining random words in moldy homeopathy books. Fuck Chester Brown. Yummy Fur and Ed the Happy Clown were complete pieces of shit, too.

Can you tell that I'm terrified that my recent attentional, mood, and academic problems are prodromal to something more serious

I can well understand that sort of terror, although I have not experienced it. It would seem that when your brain skids off the road like that, you enter a world where the whole concept of trusting your senses becomes bewildering.

That sounds a wee bit like my mum.

I'm in the same boat as you Dan! Infact I have been dealing with a major episode this week. My Dad has been talking about how his windows were replaced recently and they put in tv screens which record him, so he staged a movie that took 3 weeks to complete.. During which time one scene was of him stabbing the ceiling with knives but he said he's being careful, not going to hurt anyone, he did it to the ceiling instead of hurting anyone else... he thinks it's airing in Hollywood and that he's going to win a bunch of academy awards for it. He also owns all the radio stations and between the radio and movie he thinks he's coming into money at the end of this month and that's why he's packed his stuff - to move to a nicer place. He lives in a tiny little shoebox right now and is surviving on welfare cheques and I can't get him to the hospital - last time I tried (5 years ago) he stopped talking to me for a year and I'm the only one in the family who does bother talking to him, so don't want to lose that trust.

He told my Grandma that he was staying in his house because it wasn't safe outside and that he'd know he was safe when I arrived. But he never told me directly, because it "had to go through the channels."

(I want to add he was also considered to be of higher-than-average intelligence & creativity as a child.. And did all manner of drugs from his teens to my teens, though recently only smoking pot..)

That Chester Brown comic bugs me too. Most schizophrenics I've known are miserable, or (if they've gotten better) would do anything to keep from going back into that state.

I sometimes wonder if sleep disorders are implicated in schizophrenia, and if part of what triggers a schizophrenic break is the disruption of some nocturnal process in the brain that helps to differentiate between signal and noise. A couple times I've suddenly awoken at night in a state of confusion and felt distressingly unable to filter my thoughts, so that every passing mental impulse was as "loud" as whatever I was trying to think about. It wasn't quite like hearing voices, but it was really disconcerting and made me wonder if it might be a small taste of what schizophrenia might be like, though without the changes in affect and so forth.

yah schizophrenia seems from descriptions like a waking dream - sounds so awful - i really feel for people suffering with it

I sometimes wonder if sleep disorders are implicated in schizophrenia, and if part of what triggers a schizophrenic break is the disruption of some nocturnal process in the brain that helps to differentiate between signal and noise.

Reading things like this reawakens the worries I have over my sleeping difficulties and the fact that I have occasional mild hallucinations after emotionally intense dreams.

last night, after an afternoon/evening of smoking spliffs to myself, listening to jazz and watching television, i began reading Ronald Johnson's "ARK" again and began having intense hallucinations and body tremors that really freaked me out. and my pupils were, well, saucers.

there is a reason i stopped doing windowpane!

well be glad you got freaked out, probably a good sign - my dad just thinks he's figured stuff out and feels safer in the knowledge of what's going on..

that said, I had a hard time watching the first couple of twin peaks episodes standing outside on my porch, smoking weed with the old ipod video.. Creepy stuff!

i think upping the dose on my antidepressants along with heavy weed smoking was causing me to mild attacks of mania last week. close to the feeling of tripping, but nothing visual. fixation & keen 'insight.' so i decreased the dose on my meds rather than stop smoking weed for a while. huh.

well be glad you got freaked out, probably a good sign - my dad just thinks he's figured stuff out and feels safer in the knowledge of what's going on..

OTM. As a friend of mine likes to say, uncertainty and anxiety are a mark of sanity; it's when everything becomes clear, and/or the big epiphany comes, that you've probably gone nuts.

Reading things like this reawakens the worries I have over my sleeping difficulties and the fact that I have occasional mild hallucinations after emotionally intense dreams.

since i was a child i've had this occasional thing where, just before i go to sleep, i hear speech - isolated words, snippets from sentences, quite often my name, things i forget as soon as I hear them but they never seem threatening or particularly stand-out. Not as if someone's speaking to me, more as if my brain had collected sounds during the day and was now cycling through them, playing back bits and pieces to work out what to discard. It seemed normal, and then when i had a vague idea of what schizophrenia was I began to be afraid about it. I'm back to not being bothered by it, now: i think if I started to sense a narrative in it, then it'd be something worrying.

weed makes me this horrible combination of edgy and sleepy (skunk always gave me the feeling that the inside of my mouth was secreting some black tar substance that i'd choke on), so i keep away.

^^^ i used to get this sometimes, particularly when i had had irregular sleep schedules caused by jet-lag, binge-drinking, etc. i just assumed it was a symptom of sleep paralysis. like yours, it didn't seem threatening, but it could be pretty uncanny all the same. the last time it happened, it seemed like someone was tampering with the knob on my front door. that freaked me out a bit.

yah schizophrenia seems from descriptions like a waking dream - sounds so awful - i really feel for people suffering with it

― ice cr?m, Monday, January 26, 2009 1:26 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark

^^^ otm, chin up dudes

I used to get that thing of hearing a speech while waiting to drift off to sleep a lot. Was like listening to someone in the next room talk about the weather; indistinct and non-threatening (but almost always obviously in my head, as opposed to sounding genuinely external). If I focused on it it'd peter out, possibly because I was waking myself up too much for it to happen.

Doesn't happen any more for some reason. Went through a stage where instead I'd get a really intense mental image of creepy distorted faces or something instead, but that's gone too. It felt like maybe I'd shifted from having an auditory sort of mind to a visual one. Now I'm just... mindless?

I think weird hypnagogic effects are fairly common though. When I was given a sheaf of forms to fill in for some depresso counselling, one of the questions was if you'd had auditory hallucinations, but it explicitly said not immediately before or after sleeping.

uncertainty and anxiety are a mark of sanity; it's when everything becomes clear, and/or the big epiphany comes, that you've probably gone nuts.

This is absolutely true. If you *think* you're going nuts, you're probably not. That epiphany moment is the one to watch out for - this was the biggest sign before my only actual major psychotic break.

This is a sad thread.

I used to get that thing of hearing a speech while waiting to drift off to sleep a lot.

I get this. It comes and goes. Haven't had it in years, and then in the past year or so it's come back. I dare say it's pretty common.