Should I tip for a free drink?

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Sunday night, I asked for a gingerale, and the bar tender didn't charge me for it. It didn't occur to me until much later that I probably should have tippe her. Does this mean no more free drinks?

I'm not sure why I was given this soda for free. It was early in the evening and I handed her a $20, so maybe she just didn't want to give up that much change. On the other hand, I knew a lot of people at the club, including some of the musicians performing, so she maybe have considered me a VIP, but I kind of doubt it.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:37 (twenty years ago) link

Yes. I always tip when I'm comped a drink.

That Girl (thatgirl), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:39 (twenty years ago) link

minimum $2 tip for a free drink, no matter what.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:40 (twenty years ago) link

Yep, do it.

luna (luna.c), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:40 (twenty years ago) link

$2 for a free ginger ale? Wouldn't it be cheaper to pay for it?

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:44 (twenty years ago) link

Well you'd still have to tip if you paid.

That Girl (thatgirl), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:46 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, really. A dollar at most. I don't know how expensive sodas are there, but this is not a slick NY club.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:46 (twenty years ago) link

tip what you would pay for it.
lotsa bars don't charge for sodey pop though.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:46 (twenty years ago) link

I tip a dollar per drink. All the time.

That Girl (thatgirl), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:47 (twenty years ago) link

$1 tip for a free, non-alcoholic drink. $2 for a free alcoholic drink.

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:49 (twenty years ago) link

HM is OTM. You can't be charging the DDs for Cokes. I don't tip for a free Coke though. If the bartender was bogged down with all the free Coke orders, they'd probably stop being free.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:50 (twenty years ago) link

The way I figure, it took just as much effort from the bartender to give you a free drink as to charge. I usually give $2.

Aaron W (Aaron W), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:51 (twenty years ago) link

when in doubt, tip.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:51 (twenty years ago) link

instead of a tip, give 'em something more useful, like a sandwich.

actually, when I worked in the kitchen of a sweet little restaurant, the other cook and I (there was just the two of us) would take some of our fantastic soup for the waitresses at our post-work bar of choice. It was something he had been doing for a while but it still made me a very welcome regular.
I still tipped regular-like, though.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:52 (twenty years ago) link

I wouldn't have given a tip, even if I'd paid for the drink. We don't really tip in pubs, least I don't, maybe I'm commiting a great faux pas.

jel -- (jel), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:52 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not tipping $2 for a penny's worth of Coke.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:57 (twenty years ago) link

No fucking way. Don't reward someone for giving you free shit. Are you nuts?!?!

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:59 (twenty years ago) link

Proper tip for a complimentary coke is a smile and a thank you.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 May 2003 17:59 (twenty years ago) link

I'm rewarding the bar by buying drinks at it, not by tipping bartenders for Coke... this is not the same situation as the one Mr. Scientist described in the original question.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:00 (twenty years ago) link

Dude, I've tipped like $80 before, that's why I get comped everywhere.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:01 (twenty years ago) link

O NO IT'S ANOTHER CRAZEE TIPPING IN THE U.S.A. THREAD - RUN

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:02 (twenty years ago) link

Trust me, you'll thank my crazy ways when I am in England.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:03 (twenty years ago) link

How can you fuckers not tip? I don't get it. The bartender ain't required to give it to you for free! He's doing you a favor with the expectation that you'll return it with some $$$!

One of my best friends would get all his drinks for free at our bar, but he would tip them between $100 and $200 by the end of the night. He was often poor.

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:05 (twenty years ago) link

Tipping to get comped later is basically bribing the bartender to steal from the bar. I mean it might work but I doubt it's cost effective and either way it's inappropriate.

Yanc3y: that's why I said the situation I'm talking about isn't the same as the one Rockist is. As in, the Cokes are Free, you can drink them all night for Free. They're mostly so that designated drivers have something to drink while their friends get smashed, but either way I'm not talking about a this drink is $3 but for you it's zip free drink.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:11 (twenty years ago) link

Cuz those I do tip for... usually like when you're buying a dozen shots and the guy charges you for 10 or whatever.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:12 (twenty years ago) link

You know that if you're not drinking, the barstaff just considers you a waste of space, right?
At least if you tip them, they won't wish for your immediate extinction. Bartenders, like most people, don't go to work because they like it, they're there to make fucking money. Their wages, for the most part, are negligible. They're basically working for you, like freelancers or something.
The barstaff doesn't enjoy your company, they don't wish you well. If you're not drinking booze, you're not feeding their baby or whatever.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:15 (twenty years ago) link

many jurisdictions have minimum wage exemptions for the service industry.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:19 (twenty years ago) link

If you've ever worked for tips, you know how to tip. Big.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:21 (twenty years ago) link

For years I made a point of tipping the bartenders at my favorite club when they gave me free drinks. As a result, one of them volunteered to have me put on the guest list for any shows there I want to see.

j.lu (j.lu), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:30 (twenty years ago) link

IT CAN HAPPEN TO *YOU*!

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:31 (twenty years ago) link

I think I'm on the generous side as a tipper (though not anywhere near to being in Ally's league). I was surprised enough that she didn't charge me that I wasn't thinking clearly.

Horace, I hope you are just implying that I should tip well and not that I should drink something I don't want to drink.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 May 2003 19:04 (twenty years ago) link

No fucking way. Don't reward someone for giving you free shit. Are you nuts?!?!

This is my favorite response.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 May 2003 19:08 (twenty years ago) link

She was cute too, so there's another reason not to tip her.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 May 2003 19:12 (twenty years ago) link

I try to tip $1 for each drink unless I'm running a tab, in which case I tip at the end of the night, 20-25%. I have gotten comped drinks before and tipped on them. If I have the cash and the change, I consider it customary and polite.

Though to imagine that the bartenders (at most of the bars I go to) really need the money is an absurd illusion IMO. Yeah, shitty hours, whatever. They all make more than I do for the same amount of time. There are exceptions by locale, of course.

Twice in my drinking career I've been yelled at by bartenders who thought I stiffed them. Lesson to bartenders: If I don't give you a bill for every drink, maybe it's because I needed the change for something else. Chances are, however, if you give me a rough time for one incident, it's not very likely I'll make it up to you later, which is normally the standard. You're in the service industry, dude.

Also, on minimum wage exemptions for tipped employees - anytime a bartender or waitperson earns less than they would have on minimum wage because they didn't get enough on tips, they can demand the employer pay them the missing cash. Nobody can legally be denied minimum wage. The exemption is there because otherwise all the kitchen staff would demand raises and then quit, because the waitresses would be rolling in it (comparitively).

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 22 May 2003 19:30 (twenty years ago) link

Horace, I hope you are just implying that I should tip well and not that I should drink something I don't want to drink.

of course. suggesting more than implying, relying. Or maybe even COMMANDING.

The exemption is there because otherwise all the kitchen staff would demand raises and then quit, because the waitresses
would be rolling in it (comparitively).

the exemption is there because they can get away with it. back of house makes nowhere near the same as a decent waitron.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 22 May 2003 19:54 (twenty years ago) link

ANyone orders a gingerale shouldn't be expected to know how to tip.

rs, Thursday, 22 May 2003 19:57 (twenty years ago) link

the exemption is there because they can get away with it. back of house makes nowhere near the same as a decent waitron.

Yeah, and we put up with it because we knew at least we were making a steady stream of cash for our toil, even if it wasn't as much. If it got to the point where waiters/waitresses made the same as us without having to work constantly, I don't think there'd be much to eat...

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 22 May 2003 20:05 (twenty years ago) link

I had a bad reverse free drink incident last night where they charged me for two glasses of wine when I had only had one. So we went up to the waitress and said, this is a mistake, you should fix it and then the money will be your tip but the waitress said no, the tab is closed out (which is BS, because you never close out a tab before the end of your shift). At which point it was not my problem, but I feel like it was bad karma anyway. And it bugged, because how can you prove that you didn't have a glass of wine when they are always clearing the glasses away all the time?

felicity (felicity), Thursday, 22 May 2003 20:08 (twenty years ago) link

that's when you politely get the manager involved.

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 22 May 2003 20:09 (twenty years ago) link

In former Soviet Union, they tip YOU for fixing mistake on check.

felicity (felicity), Thursday, 22 May 2003 20:10 (twenty years ago) link

When I get bad service, I tip accordingly. But for drinks, that's either too hard to determine or completely irrelevant.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 20:14 (twenty years ago) link

and people are missing an URGENT AND KEY issue: if you don't tip, good luck getting decent service again! and then later you'll bitch about the lack of good service and won't tip yet another time and it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy all cuz yr a tightwad bitch! bartenders have fucking elephant-like memories of that shit. one time i was at a bar i regularly go to and an uber-cute bartender started chatting me up. i was all psyched cuz she's hella-hot but it ends up she just wanted to lemme know that she's noticed that my friend (who also goes there regularly) only tips on EVERY OTHER DRINK not every drink which a smooth man like myself knows to do. so think about THAT!

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 22 May 2003 20:18 (twenty years ago) link

I tip really well. Since I first waited tables, I doubt I've tipped less than even 15% for bad service. I just can't do it. I know there were times when I was just so out of it, or so busy that I gave shitty service.

I don't have any set guidelines - most of the bars I go to, I know the staff and get better prices. I tip at least a dollar or two per drink, or if they charge me employee prices, I'll tip 100%. That way the staff gets a great tip and I'm about even with what I'd pay normally.

How can you justify not tipping (in the US, at least)? Most waiters and waitresses are earning about $2.13 an hour, which covers taxes if they're lucky. When I bartended, I was making minimum wage. Service staff depend on your tips. You are their income. Not extra money, not a little something on the side - tips are it. (I don't know if this is the same in big cities like NYC or Chicago.)

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 22 May 2003 21:47 (twenty years ago) link

bartenders have fucking elephant-like memories of that shit.

That's a lie and a half.

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 22 May 2003 22:00 (twenty years ago) link

(shhh! i'm trying to teach the tightwads a lesson!)

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 22 May 2003 22:08 (twenty years ago) link

well, depends on place and bartender
some places the staff will fix you with a gimlet eye for an indiscretion committed decades ago. others, where you have spent far too much time and money you and was a 'regular' you come back and you're all forgotten.

having bartenders ask friends for my addy in ethiopia and send me x-mas cards was both touching and kinda scary.

H (Heruy), Thursday, 22 May 2003 22:10 (twenty years ago) link

are you my friend erkyel, h??? my best friend who dropped load$$$ in bars is ethiopian and just moved back last year...

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 22 May 2003 22:13 (twenty years ago) link

& do you love johnny walker black label? that's all erkyel liked to drink (tho he'd drink anything) and we used to fuck with him about it. but every ethiopian restaurant we went to always had it! we decided it was the Offical Drink of Ethiopia.

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 22 May 2003 22:16 (twenty years ago) link

nope. maybe it is an ethiopian thang tho, i have spent way too much money in bars.

whas his name? the way it is writeen up there looks like urkel (pronunciation) and that aint no good ethiop name.

H (Heruy), Thursday, 22 May 2003 22:18 (twenty years ago) link

black label - well, used to be big ethiop drink, Addis has the highest consumption of whisky/scotch on the continent
however, vodka is the choice of the younger generation (that means ppl like me)

H (Heruy), Thursday, 22 May 2003 22:20 (twenty years ago) link

he lives in addis now. erkyel aklu is his name. (pronunciation: ur-key-el) i miss him like mad...

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 22 May 2003 23:21 (twenty years ago) link

i'll keep an eye out

H (Heruy), Thursday, 22 May 2003 23:44 (twenty years ago) link

bartenders have fucking elephant-like memories of that shit.

That's a lie and a half.

like fuck it is, as anyone who knows or has worked with bartenders can tell you

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 23 May 2003 00:35 (twenty years ago) link

God I'm glad I dont live in the US... this tipping system thing sounds insane. Why can't they just pay bar staff PROPER WAGES instead?

I mean... if you pay someone for a free drink, it isnt a free drink. Maybe it makes sense if you've grown up with it but it seems nonsensical to me.

We just have "tip jars" on the bar/counter in cafes and bars and you chuck coinage into it if you want to (ie if they've given great service I guess). No one expects tips and would thus sneer at you for not giving one.

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 23 May 2003 00:40 (twenty years ago) link

well,
1) people steal from tip jars
2) tipping your bartender is a) thank you b) prudent investment in future

H (Heruy), Friday, 23 May 2003 00:48 (twenty years ago) link

i think if you stole from a tip jar in melbourne you would have the living crap beaten out of you

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 23 May 2003 00:51 (twenty years ago) link

Damn straight.

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 23 May 2003 00:54 (twenty years ago) link

And that'd be like stealing from the "give to the blind" tin on the counter anyway. Well kind of.

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 23 May 2003 00:55 (twenty years ago) link

obviously you are all right, u.s. tip systems should be abolished, thank you for playing. yawn.

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 23 May 2003 00:59 (twenty years ago) link

eat our fuc

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 23 May 2003 01:03 (twenty years ago) link

AUS vs US - FITE!

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 23 May 2003 01:14 (twenty years ago) link

The UK will tip the winner (badly).

N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 May 2003 01:15 (twenty years ago) link

no tipping unless it is cow tipping

bladderwort, Friday, 23 May 2003 01:16 (twenty years ago) link

Don't make our president come conquer your asses and force you to tip!

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 23 May 2003 01:16 (twenty years ago) link

Oh we'll tip him, alright. You don' wanna know where though.

Yeah. *makes like West Side Story*

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 23 May 2003 01:17 (twenty years ago) link

"Yeah, I got a song for you. It's called, 'While You Were Singing, A Puerto Rican Stabbed Me In The Head.'"

--Norm MacDonald (who probably tips)

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 23 May 2003 01:20 (twenty years ago) link

If your drink was free 'cause you didn't have any small denominations to give the bartender, than what exactly were you meant to tip her with anyway?

I dunno, you whacky Americans...

petra jane (petra jane), Friday, 23 May 2003 01:36 (twenty years ago) link

Do British people who work in pubs that serve a lot of Americans do better on tips? I have tipped a British barperson twice - once cos I was flush and fancied saying "and have one for yourself", and the other time because the barmaid (the one at the Apple Tree, FAP fans, though Vicky told me she was moving on) was so fucking great and helpful and smiley and friendly in the perfect way.

In the States I've been known to tip generously on my first trip to the bar and less so thereafter. Is this bad? My thinking is that they'll think I'm a good guy on first contact and subconsciously I'll get stuck with that association in their heads.

Mark C (Mark C), Friday, 23 May 2003 09:31 (twenty years ago) link

Oh, and yes, of course you should tip for a free drink. They're still fetching you the drink - unless you normally tip for the complex action of ringing it up on the till.

Mark C (Mark C), Friday, 23 May 2003 09:32 (twenty years ago) link

I think the US tipping business is grebt, because the more arcane and complicated social rituals are, the better. This seems very obvious to me.

I also think the fact that, in some of the pubs I like best, if you tried to do the 'one for yourself' thing (which is obviously the only acceptable form of tipping in the pub) more than once an evening, you would be treated with total suspicion and, very likely, derision.

Also Mark C's tipping strategy = glorious skinflintery.

Tim (Tim), Friday, 23 May 2003 09:48 (twenty years ago) link

I didn't say I tip badly after the first splurge, necessarily. I just am generous first time round. There, that sounds better.

Mark C (Mark C), Friday, 23 May 2003 10:02 (twenty years ago) link

Why does ILE have a grillion threads about tipping and very few about the intricacies and etiquette of round-buying?

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 23 May 2003 10:31 (twenty years ago) link

US imperialism?

N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 May 2003 11:25 (twenty years ago) link

Because round-buying isn't exactly a concept that anyone is debating; apparently manners have hit the outer-US in that issue!

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 23 May 2003 12:32 (twenty years ago) link

It seems like the discussion got into whether or not people should tip or be tightwads because of some of the things I said upthread. I want to make it clear that unless you tip a waitress for the water, you tip like me.

And any bartender who wants to be tipped because his job is so hard can come to work with me or suck it.

Stuart (Stuart), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:27 (twenty years ago) link

im just really surprised that theres all this talk of free soft drinks! the chance of getting a soft drink in the uk that was 50% more expensive relitively than an alcoholic one is v. slim. this free-ginger ale nation sounds like paradise!
what about ginger beer? is that free too?

also, "In former Soviet Union, they tip YOU for fixing mistake on check" ?????????????

dont remember this. anything like this happened, the onyl 'tip' you got was eyes full of hate 4ever

ambrose (ambrose), Friday, 23 May 2003 14:52 (twenty years ago) link

One person's tab probably pays for all the free Coke these bars give away in one night.

Stuart (Stuart), Friday, 23 May 2003 15:02 (twenty years ago) link

I want to make it clear that unless you tip a waitress for the water, you tip like me.

So you make a habit of going to a restaurant, ordering ONLY water, and thus not having to pay for anything, then? That's a ridiculous comment. The water is part of the service you tip for at a restaurant--assuming you aren't COMPLETELY FILTHY CHEAP and tip after a meal.

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 23 May 2003 15:05 (twenty years ago) link

Mark C's second-to-last post wraps the issue up nicely, it's hard to imagine what more could be said.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 23 May 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link

And if you disagree you can "suck it"!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 23 May 2003 15:39 (twenty years ago) link

"In former Soviet Union, they tip YOU for fixing mistake on check" ?????????????

Are none of you familiar with Yakoff Smirnoff's schtick? Everything was backwards in former Soviet Union, according to him. Except I think he is serious.

felicity (felicity), Friday, 23 May 2003 15:54 (twenty years ago) link

Yakov Smirnoff's doing standup on 42nd St. soon!!!

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 23 May 2003 15:55 (twenty years ago) link

whatta country

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:00 (twenty years ago) link

"In America you can always find a party. In Russia the party always finds YOU."

felicity (felicity), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:01 (twenty years ago) link

i almost added "wadda country"

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:05 (twenty years ago) link

Do I go into restaurants and order only water? No.
If my water glass is constantly empty, will it affect the waiter's tip? It might. A lot of times I ask for a pitcher to make it easier for both of us.

Do I go into bars and drink only free Coke? Nope.
On the seldom occassions that I do have a Coke, do I tip for it? Nope.
Does the bartender come to my table and refill it for me? No, because if he did he'd be a waiter and I'd tip him.

Stuart (Stuart), Friday, 23 May 2003 16:12 (twenty years ago) link

I have sometimes tipped for free things -- dinner in one instance --and the waitstaff waved it away, no, no! So now I am afraid to offend waitstaff by tipping their generosity. I think free sodas are fairly common -- for some reason waitstaff can't seem to be bothered to charge for them sometimes, I think it's fine to accept graciously, no tip. Then again, I'm not a big fan of generous tips for bartenders, they tend to be all rocked out and I don't like their attitude, I don't really like them, they make me wait a long time for a drink, even before they realize I'll only give them a dollar tip -- what am I tipping them for, treatlng me badly? Anyway, the $ will only go to their tattoo fund.

Mary (Mary), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:09 (twenty years ago) link

No one's mentioned the phenomenon of the "open bar", encountered at promo events, weddings, etc. where tipping is even more important than usual.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:22 (twenty years ago) link

It is?

Mary (Mary), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:23 (twenty years ago) link

the gratuity is taken care of by the host of the open bar.

gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:26 (twenty years ago) link

I was at a BBQ festival at the Brooklyn Brewery two weeks ago. All you can eat and drink, tickets were $85. And the bartender was giving me dirty looks when I wasn't tipping! I PAID $85!!! (well, I didn't, but my friend did for me)

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:29 (twenty years ago) link

That's annoying. Like when you go to a place that has service included in the check (like often hotel bars and restaurants of they automatically add 18% for large parties) and there's also a line for the tip on top of the service charge. In Europe, sometimes they even yell at you for not tipping, even though service was included in the bill. They want to shame you into tipping just because they know you're American, even though you're not in America!

felicity (felicity), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:34 (twenty years ago) link

just keep telling yourself that, gygax

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:55 (twenty years ago) link

The Brooklyn Brewery is lame. Next time he sneers, give him a little chunk of wood. There's your 20%...

Stuart (Stuart), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:08 (twenty years ago) link

t.,

having been the best man at two weddings and i've had to (again, as custom) pony up for this expense each time. one guy even included the tip! so not only were people stuffing ones in his cup, he included his gratuity (buried in the invoice), and he left a line on the bill for additional "love"!!!

gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:08 (twenty years ago) link

it is urgent and key that Felicity and I bond over Yakov Smirnoff asap

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:12 (twenty years ago) link

One Smirnoff on ice for me, and one for my friend, please.

felicity (felicity), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:19 (twenty years ago) link

"bond"

"over"

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:20 (twenty years ago) link

ok fine, "make fun of." happy, Y-pants?

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:22 (twenty years ago) link

"pants"

*KISS*

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:36 (twenty years ago) link

That does sound devious, gygax. I suppose those situations are worked out pretty thoroughly beforehand so no one gets the wrong idea and no one gets screwed (except of course you). But at an open bar at a club or a bar I always assume the bartenders are just making the same thing they always do but that CERTAIN people harbor CERTAIN misconceptions about their compensation leaving certain others of us to take up the slack.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:57 (twenty years ago) link


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