Terrorist Action 11/9/2001 - Thread 8

newanswersnewanswers...

Flag situation in Denver: clusters, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything; random distributions look like clusters too, just as the random distributions of stars in the night sky look like constellations. But I wouldn't be surprised if neighbors influenced each other. (In regard to flags, not stars.)

Mike, I'd think that the Woolworth Building and J&R would be well outside the range of debris (large-sized, anyway). But then I've had no experience with hundred-story office buildings collapsing, so I wouldn't really know. And also, perhaps J&R has moved. It was on Park Row on the east side of City Hall Park when I worked there twenty years ago. (For your own sake, don't bring my name up in earshot of Joe or Rachelle, who probably have no kind memories of me. They eliminated my job when they discovered I was trying to unionize the place.)

Another Irony. There was a small memorial at Gateway Plaza which probably escaped direct damage but is or was now buried in ash. It had a running fountain and a wall with the names of every NYC police officer who ever fell in the line of duty, Maya Lin-style. There was never a time I passed by when I didn't wonder what they were gonna do when the wall was filled with names...

The Woolworth Building was still standing yesterday, as I spied from the safety of Jersey City. But I could only see it because the WTC was no longer there... J&R should be fine as well (just bought CDRs there on Saturday). Other things I saw are here.

What is this thing about Denver

It's about flags, not Denver. (Near the end of Thread 7 people were talking about the fact that they saw many houses flying flags, but that these seemed to be in clusters - i.e., bunch of houses near each other would all have flags, perhaps the influence of people being influenced by their near neighbors. I just was reporting what I was seeing here in Denver in regard to flags.)

Marilyn Manson, patriot. Hm.

What hits me most about Matthew's pictures are the people standing in the foreground. Just looking like people standing there. (And what would I expect them to look like?)

thanks to ally for the invite. I'm cool for now.

Trying to avoid tvs and pictures

was in washinton square during a vigil, why do they always have to sing nationalist songs.

I can't track down my host (she is safe just mobiles still not great) can't get back downtown without her to retrieve tix passports stuff.

good list of r3esources here

smell of smoke is not nice when the wind changes

What hits me most about Matthew's pictures are the people standing in the foreground. Just looking like people standing there. (And what would I expect them to look like?)

And they were enjoying just what people would expect to enjoy -- one hell of a view. There was just a little too much hell in it, though.

God bless anybody who tries to unionize anything.

I could see that the Woolworth Building survived from some of the footage, but I suspect that all of the buildings in the general vicinity received some nasty (if not fatal) damage. The flooding water, the mud, the debris, the ash, plus the equivalent of several small earthquakes couldn't have helped matters any. I know this is probably a futile wish from a technological utopian, but there are a few NYC buildings I'd like to see last for a very, very long time.

Matt's pictures remind me of the times I've volunteered for WFMU, and the people I've seen there who come into the WTC for the PATH train.

Holy shit, are we going to level Iraq again? Are we going to blow up Mecca? Of Course most Muslims don't approve of terrorism. Though even Cat Stevens approved of the idea of killing Salmon Rushdie. I hate religion. RELIGION CAUSES WAR!!!!!!!!!!

Relax about Iraq -- that was still one unconfirmed report, I think it had an air of wish-fulfillment around it. Also, nobody would launch anything massive right now, there's only the one carrier group in the Gulf.

Via metafilter, a pretty comprehensive and up-to-the-minute story about the FBI investigation to date of up to 50 suspects: http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-091301terror.story

A curious thing about the attack footage: the more I see it, the more sensitized I become. There was a brief, fast-paced montage on Channel 2 just now, and I swear, my stomach turned. I feel violated and voyeuristic at once.

I was looking through some of the photos on Yahoo! news and I notice some of the tombstones at St. Paul's look as if they were dislodged by the blast. Some of them were already toppled, of course, but they were still usually kept vertical. Not now.

the more I see it, the more sensitized I become

My friend, you are not alone.

Avoiding the TV becomes all the more crucial for me.

I turned off the TV today in the grad students lounge. it was getting way too close to vouyerism

In a private message to a friend in Manhattan I decried the TV coverage as 'the pornography of pain.' But the friend said that it was the only way said person could get a sense of what was going on. It serves different needs -- I have decided I no longer wish to be served.

Religion doesn't cause war, religious fanatics (read: people) cause war.

10 yrs ago bush was tlaking about a war between good and evil, a new world order, of american friends...we will, we will, rock you...i'm sorry, but either yr a trained pilot who knows how to fly the planes with such exactitude you hit a building, or yr a dumb shit who leaves an arabic flight manual in yr oh-so convenient car...1+1 not equal to 7.

Save economy = preserve democracy

I think that one thing people should bear in mind is that just cos an explanation is simple or convenient doesn't mean it's not true. But having said that, I doubt it would be Iraq. After seeing Ehud 'kill em all' Barak on the BBC the past couple of days it wouldn't surprise me to find Mossad behind the whole thing.

I work for a company that makes health and safety gear, we've just had orders from our American plant for very large quantities of motorised filtering masks, I only hope the air traffic starts up again soon so we can ship the things quickly so they don't sit over here doing nothing.

Report in the Guardian said that the car was found with a flight training video, a fuel calculator and a Koran. Seems extraordinarily convenient to me.

its nice to have ILE as a resourch for infomation on the WTC without having to see any more photos and videos of events..

thanks ..

DG, I know what you mean about Ehud Barak. He seems to have completely gone off the rails.

Gone? I've heard reports seperately (which to be fair I am counting as rumour but worthwhile bringing out nonetheless) that the "Palestinian celebrations" were - at least to some extent - mocked up. Didn't they get rushed out quickly as well.

has anyone found a followup on the story/rumor that bin Laden and some of his assistants are under house arrest by the Talben?

http://au.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/20010913/aapworld/1000336445- 1141825578.html

God, my parents were terrible last night. Forced me to watch the news, kept telling me it's a wonder there aren't more of my friends dead. In the end I lost it completely, had a weird little mental attack and had to get out.

Now I'm sitting at work just shaking. Thanks for coming to visit and help me, mum and dad.

Kate is now safe and sound at her Mum's. She saw everything from the airport, and had to stay there for two days under armed guard, but she's fine. She won't be able to fly back to the UK for at least a week, it seems.

It's weird, now I'm relieved I know she's alright it's like everything has come out. I'm crying at my desk, and when I got my usual telling off at work I overreacted much worse than usual. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who's helped me out these last few days, when I'm not really someone who should need helping. You know who you are.

http://nypost.com/commentary/3999.htm

I wonder.. would he think the same if the attack happened somewhere in Europe or Singapoure..?

I hate reactions like that. The perfect response to the deaths of so many innocent civilians is not to kill more innocent civilians somewhere else.

Paul, don't feel bad about feeling like you need help. Of course thoughts and prayers must be with the people in New York and Washington but this is changing everything. I looked up into the sky this morning and felt claustrophobic. The Middle East feels like a neighbour. I feel European today; to be British has so little meaning now. I just pray that we can keep reaching out to each other to try and move forward rather than retreating into ourselves. Judging by the reaction here, and the more reasoned commentary that seems to be coming out now, I feel more hopeful for the former.

For what it's worth, I'd like to send my best wishes to all those in NYC and elsewhere. I would say to all those people affected by this but that's a pretty big wish.

Shit, hadn't read that commentary before I posted. Is that really a New York Post columnist?

It's a tabloid columnist. Our UK tabloids are just as bad.

I didn't realise the NY tabloids were as bad as ours, though...

I got confirmation that two of my friends from New York are dead today. I have a little picture of them on my microwave, and I'd been meaning to contact them for ages since I'd kinda lost touch over the last few months. Can't believe it, really. Got good news and bad news at the same time.

But enough being down. The LondonIndieNYC night is taking shape, so if you still want to get involved please do. It's time to put all of the worry and frustration energy into something that will make a difference.

Paul, I'm glad to know Kate is safe and sound. Try to keep your chin up and remember, we are the lucky ones. Sometimes it's best to remember that parents say the STUPIDEST things - my mum's dropped a few xenophobic mega-clangers since this happened and under normal circumstances I'd bitch-slap her; you just have to hold your tongue and temper and sanity right now. It's hard, but I would *so* not want to be in the shoes of anyone who has good friends and relations working in Wall Street or the City.

Oh dear. We must've posted those last two at the same time. My condolences.

Don't worry. I feel bad that I didn't contact them for months because I was "too busy" and now I can never contact them. Damn. Must make a note to write to everyone I'm in the process of losing touch with.

Kate seems pretty good, by the way. She told me to stop worrying! So very little has changed there! ;)

If you are in the London area, the US embassy is taking contact information for people who can offer places to stay for stranded tourists. The number to call if you would like to get in touch with them is 0207 409 0820.

ananova is running a report that Osama bin Laden has been placed under house arrest by the Taliban, in Kandahar, Afghanistan. hmmm, what does this mean? anyone? Is it a "here he is" to Bush?

Quite possibly. But is bin Laden is killed he will become a martyr to a lot of people. This needs to be handled very carefully.

A few thoughts, to get them off my chest.

These attacks demonstrate just how vulnerable we all are. Airport security will no doubt be increased but can only hinder rather than prevent a resourceful and suicidal terrorist from turning any plane into a flying bomb. Had the individuals responsible access to nuclear or biological weapons can anyone doubt they would have been just as prepared to use them?

The comparison with Pearl Harbour is irresistable, but misleading. That was the start of a classic inter- state war, this is something of an altogether different nature. A conflict with a shadowy multi-national enemy with millions of sympathisers who regard the US + its allies, rightly or wrongly, as largely responsible for their own poverty, oppression, and lack of power. Madeline Albright refered to the US as 'this benign nation'. For many, particularly in the Islamic world, the US is regarded as anything but 'benign'. They see the US support autocratic repressive regimes in their homeland in the name of oil, they feel powerless and humiliated by the presence of the state of Israel in their midst, they regard the justification given to fight the Gulf War as hyprocrital cant. It may, or may not, be coincidental that September the 11th was the anniversary of George Bush's speech to Congress heralding the start of that conflict.

Until this level of hate and hostility is understood - and recent US media comment such as the Wall Street Journal's comparison between Clinton's Middle-East diplomacy and Chamberlain's Munich appeasement suggests it isn't- attempts to combat terrorism of this sort will be an uphill struggle.

Calls for immediate revenge will be difficult to ignore, but should be. Lessons should be learnt from Clinton's decision to lob a few cruise missiles at Bin Ladin's Afghanistan camp in '98 following the African embassy bombings. It undoubtedly went down well in US public opinion, but whilst the damage inflicted was minimal it only bolstered Bin Ladin's popularity and respect amongst the sort of people for whom Tuesday's attack was a cause of private celebration.

Combating international terrorism on this scale requires calm, long-term strategies, pooled intelligence, and global alliances with states not always neccessarily sympathetic to the US + its allies. A hasty violent response might feel good, but could stoke the fires of fanaticism even further, and be extremely counter-productive. This is a time for cool heads and strong nerves, not cathartic emotional reactions.

That NYPost article is horrendous. I'd really like to get the hack behind it and just ask him what the fuck he thought he was doing. I mean, "We should give the Taliban, which protects this monster, 24 hours to clear the city of Kabul of innocent civilians and then start the process of urban renewal with high-altitude bombing." And what will that acheive exactly? Apart from justifying the views of many a US opponent,possibly including the hijackers?

The best way to fight terrorism it seems to me is to become good at it: one British newspaper yesterday drew a comparison with the 'Battle for Europe' - Israeli-led intelligence's destruction of radical factions after the Munich olympics. A similar successful operation would help capture the public imagination and be much more effective than carpet-bombing Kabul, or whatever.

The other good way fight terrorism is by funding of moderate opposition in extremist nations - something the West has proved apalling at. But as others have pointed out the concept of 'extremist nations' is mostly a political one - terrorism is corporate not statist, though state and terrorist interests often collide.

not sure if anyone's posted this:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/doc_o_day/doc_o_day.shtml

apologies if they have, it's scary stuff from the smoking gun.

Tom, the problem with going down the Mossad line is that then you have State Sponsored Terrorism (exactly the plot infact of the excrable Swordfish movie) which act outside national and international law. How a state which tries to be the international policeman (US) gets around openly breaking the laws they invested with such importance with the backing of the international community is difficult to work out.

Frankly taking the Israeli line seems more than foolish. Granted their response to the Palestinians first efforts outside their country was effective - but only to reap the whirlwind we currently see in Palestine? When you think that Arrafat - leader of the PLO - is now generally seen as not radical and toothless in the Middle-East and more extremist groups like Hammas have the popular voice you see how things get worse. (Hammas of course previously funded by Mossad to show the Palestinians as more extreme justifying increased funding and stronger action). S'a mess alright.

In my opinion the only way to stamp out terrorism is to sever the connection in the public mind between religion/nationalism and acceptability of behaviour.

As for everyone who would rule out retaliation on the grounds that it might provoke someone - what do you want, international focus groups?

Following what Pete said, I take it as read that bin Laden was not bumped off years ago – since Mossad is quite unsqueamish abt assassinations of such types, perhaps justifiably — because it has been deemed convenient (to "Western" security) that such a figure continues to have a profile. Partly, yes, to define and big up the Threat, but also — actually probably more important — to act as a focus and lightning rod. ObL has much money and power (or so he claims), so Israel's and America's enemies will gravitate towards him as the biggest "anti- West" show in town, and thus reveal themselves.

Taking sides: conspiracy vs cock-up theory. Except conspiracies have a built-in tendency to BECOME cock-ups (secrecy = stupidity); and many many cock-ups are the result of "successful" conspiracies.

In ten years time are any of those behind the conspiracy that exploded into evil flower on Tuesday — if any still live, even today, let alone to such a future — going to be looking back and describing their project as a "success"? If ans = yes, will "success" have actually included the razing of Kabul and Baghdad?

It seems to me the only sensible way to deal with this all is to wait, find out who is responsible (if that is actually possible), then do something, but something along the lines of extradition. Not bombing the hell out of an innocent people. I know this sounds as if I am probably pointing a large finger of suspicion at bin Laden, but what else can I do, the entire world's media is doing this and I am susceptible. Like any horrible or wonderful event, it is addictive watching the news roll on, there's almost an adrenaline rush - you want to find out more and more. Furthermore, I seem to be pretty numbed to the footage at this point in time. (Although I would still absoloutely question some things that have been shown...people jumping etc...as being beyond all moral bounds - it is televisual pornography).
Also, I find it incredible watching the braveness of those resuce workers there now, who are being subjected to horrendous amounts of dust and fumes - I have a fair suspicion many could die of lung- related diseases following this. Adding to this the fact that there are large buildings in very close proximity which presumably could topple at any moment and they are just incredible, incredible people. (Surely also many of these buildings will now have to be pulled down for safety?)

I don't understand all this talk of 'pornography'. On what grounds, that it's 'shocking'? 'Tasteless'? This is a real event, 'taste' doesn't come into it. I remember once I was watching a Holocaust doc on TV, there was a scene of a relative kneeling at the site who started screaming uncontrollably, and my mother said "Turn down the TV, I don't want to hear that when i'm ironing" and I sincerely wanted to slug her. Well, maybe she thought I was watching a horror film.)) Or is it the condescending fear that people will 'get off' on it? Being shielded from the world's unpleasantness is part of the syndrome that led us into this situation in the first place.

I can't watch the news anymore. Sitting at my desk at work, everyone moving around me, everyone busy. And I'm shaking and crying for reasons I can't even completely understand. Everyone around me thinks I'm going insane, I think!

So the news isn't addictive at all. I don't want to see footage - I want to be there helping out. It's so damn frustrating. If I could I would board the first plane to get there and give aid. I can't just pretend it's just something on TV.

WHat's this holy war shit anyways? Is it really part of being Muslim to fight the other religions?

No, it's not.

will "success" have actually included the razing of Kabul and Baghdad?

yes, i am worrying about this. that any US response along these lines may be part of what was hoped for by the attackers.

Bill wrote: "It seems to me the only sensible way to deal with this all is to wait, find out who is responsible (if that is actually possible)"

This is of course, entirely correct. The problem comes in the qualification. What if this is not actually possible? What if there were no way to supply the vengeance being demanded in the US? What if responsibility itself is too demanding a concept to be satisfied in the easy attribution of blame -- *even* if we "knew" who had planned or committed such a terrible act? Where does responsibility stop for something like this? If no-one can be identified for certain, should some action be taken, or should the US, NATO, the West, whoever feels themselves under attack, turn the other cheek? Surely there is a strong moral argument for this already, whether or not 'perpetrators' can be 'identified'? If the world-system is one which produces / runs on an economy of violence and inequality, is that very system not likely to produce certain exceptionally visible (and terrible) moments of interruption (and horror) as a matter of course?

These are some of the questions I find pressing upon me amongst all the other emotions, articulated so much better by others on this board. More than ever I think that there is an urgent argument for rethinking the concept of patience, which means not just the "waiting" that Bill rightly calls for, but originally means also "suffering".

I know that Paul has been giving you updates from my mum about where I am and how I'm doing, but I just wanted to check in myself, say that I was indeed safe (though thoroughly shaken and scared) at my mum's house in Upstate NY. I have spent two days under armed guard, sleeping on National Emergency cots by the baggage claim rack, very well looked after by the Port Authority.

I still feel numb about everything that has happened. We were sealed off in the airport, where we could see all the damage across the harhour, (I did not see the aircrashes, but I did see the first building collapse) but we were getting very little news through about what was happening. When I think about all the people that I know that I will now never see again, when I think about all the people I know who have also lost people they cared about, I just feel numb and in shock. But then something so simple as hearing the mother of the man who called on his mobile from the doomed plane, talking about how they were saying that they loved each other, and I just burst into tears.

I can't watch the news. I can't watch people baying for blood and retribution and revenge. Creating new martyrs only starts the problem all over again. I know that I should be feeling sorry for the people that were killed and their families, and I do, I *DO*, but right now I just want to run up to random Moslems and Arabs and hug them. I don't understand this reaction. I guess I just feel that more hatred and death will NOT make up for all the hatred and death that has already occured.

At the airport, there were both extremes of human behaviour under crisis. The Port Authority staff were absolutely brilliant, kind, compassionate, and went out of their way to make us comfortable, and to look after us, realising that we were stranded in a foreign country, and all alone (the stranded people were mostly single people travelling alone who had nowhere else to go, mostly British, but a few Americans, some Asians, a Peruvian, 2 Swedes and one Israli). The airline staff, however, were at best were useless and confused, and at worst were hostile and xenophobic.

I don't know what to do, or what to think. I feel confused, scared, numb and shellshocked. I guess I just wanted to express relief at all the people who are here who are safe, and I wanted to share sorrow and grief with the other people who lost friends, relatives and colleagues in the tragedy.

Kofe Anon (sp?) of teh Un had wise, Vulcan, soothing words of "lets not be rash now" or some such thing. Its hard to be passionless when anger is wellin g up, but its really the way. I heard they found two of the hijackers lived in FLORida (Florida is the mother of all evil) and where former Saudi airline piolets. But who knows ... would the government fabricate things ike this?

You know, here in the UK we always have a problem with IRA and splinter group attacks. Omagh is a good example. We get upset, and often know precisely who is behind the attacks, but we're powerless to really do anything. And that's the worst thing. It's just a horrible feeling of impotence and powerlessness.

Paul: Believe me, I want to help as well, but it's near impossible. I medically can't give blood, and I can't get to the USA in the first place. But you're not going insane, it's just a normal reaction and I'd give up caring what everyone around you thinks, to be honest.

I guess. I feel kind of bad, though I shouldn't, for starting off this LondonIndieNYC thing. People might think I'm being super- compassionate or whatever, but my reasons for doing it are pretty selfish in that if I don't do something to make some sort of difference to the horrible things that are happening then I really will lose my mind. Ah well.

A guy on Sky News (someone Tusa, I think) says he wouldn't at all be surprised if the Taleban have flown bin Laden to the US within days, more out of fear than anything else. The threat of military strikes seem to be an all too real possibility.

Paul - you could be doing it to launder money and it wouldn't matter. LondonIndieNYC is one of the most positive things I've seen done in response to this and best of all it gives us a community framework for future benefit stuff too. Well done fellow. Let's just hope we don't have to try and set up a benefit for Afghani civilians next.

Life would be much simpler if all wars were fought as one-on-one combat between the heads of the conflicting countries. (No, this is not "Ventura For President" propoganda.)

I think that the leaders of the countries should just get together and play games, instead. If they have to be wargames they can play Battleships, or get a computer to play video games.

If the Taleban hand over bin Laden, yes, perhaps it would out of fear, but why not also out of a sense of genuine shock and revulsion (for example)? You know, I bet there's a LOT of people in a lot of orgs, who a week ago if told of such a project, wd have happily said "Yay hijackers!!" and punched the foolish air, who are today having very queasy second thoughts: "Yes we hate American Capitalism, but um, no, not like this AT ALL."

Even some of the ones who are still saying "Yay" are no longer feeling it, and not JUST because they sense the gun barrel swinging their way... If you've lived a city under bombardment — Hanoi in the early 70s, Beirut in the early 80s, Baghdad in the 90s — then seems to me you have at least as great a capacity for EMPATHY with what New Yorkers are going through as for horrid glee...

It's perfectly possible that a lot of places are seeing the Pearl Harbour references, then remembering Hiroshima, and then deciding that sheltering someone the US desperately wants is not such a good idea, too...

We've been quarantined at work, disallowed from leaving the building even for a smoke until further notice - there's now a bomb threat at the Lincoln Center, in a building on 65th and Broadway, they're searching all the cars and the police are in full force militia mode.

*sighs* In some ways I actually hope there really are bombs, because quite frankly I'd like to think kids aren't so sick as to be calling in fake bomb threats.

One of my friends is on an exchange at the University of Oklahoma. Here's some reportage. Confirms all our worst fears, I'm afraid.

"The response is pretty scary here - even among graduate students I've heard people say 'Islam is all about killing people' [...] My students are convinced it was Bin Laden, that we should bomb the hell out of whoever and that all Muslims are evil (this from students whose knowledge of Islam doesn't even extend to knowing what a mosque is). My office mate has a Persian student who's scared for her life. She's living in the halls and is being constantly harassed - having stuff written on her door etc. The Muslim girls round campus are taking off their head dresses because they're so frightened, which really upsets me, and there's been an attack on a Mosque in OKC [Oklahoma City]."

Britain's response to the blitz was to do destroy German cities using the same tactics. One hopes even the most trenchant opponent of the US would sit back and thick of the innocent victims of such horror, but do we in the West sit back and think of the thousands of children dieing thanks in no small part to the sanctions on Iraq. I suspect many chose to blame that countries political leadership, which is probably how supporters of Tuesdays horror rationalise it

I'm going to try and stay off this board today. Not because I don't like it here. :) I've enjoyed all of the discussion here the last few days. It's been very informative and intelligent. Right now though I've reached my saturation point.

I used to work in lower Manhatten (1 Battery Park Place) and one friend is still unaccounted for. I'm not *worried* about him b/c I'm fairly positive he wouldn't have been anywhere where he could have been directly harmed. But not knowing where he is and how he's doing is unsettling. I rarely went above 14th st so knowing the city I knew is a ghost town of debris is very unsettling as well.

I've been dealing with this by clinging to news and facts--staying abreast of developments. But I don't think the enormity of it really started hitting me till yesterday. I was very depressed last night and had dreams of digging through rubble looking for my boyfriend, my brother. I need a break.

I'm sorry about your friends Paul. I hope all of you continue to deal with this in the best way that you can.

See you in a few days.

" I read the news today, oh boy...." JL

I really wish the 300 fucktards who protested at an Illinois mosque would get it through their mile-thick skulls that among the many World Trade Center employees, firemen, police officers and doctors who have lost their lives were quite a few American Muslims and Arab-Americans, as well as recent immigrants who were not yet naturalized citizens.

There appears to be a bomb scare at LaGuardia. People are running from the terminal...

Re the article Michael links to - that is truly disgusting. The shitbag who said "I'm an American and I've always hated Arabs" will have the honour of being this century's Horst Wessel.

Has Bush said anything regarding the treatment of Arab- Americans? Someone please say he has; I have not seen/heard him say anything on the matter.

This article on the anti-Arab sentiment/action: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20953-2001Se p12.html

quotes him as saying, "President Bush also advised Americans not to rush to judgment."

Which, I sorely hope was taken out of context.

Ahhhh! Get it off me!

That is completely outrageous and sickening. Bush should follow Guliani's lead and ask for tolerance and respect - but I fear he's too dim to even articulate that at present...

Meanwhile -