If I didn't have my driveway, it'd just mean I'd have more lawn to cut.
― Pleasant Plains, Monday, 25 April 2011 17:54 (thirteen years ago) link
I actually thought about moving my driveway to the back and changing the space next to the house into more garden space!
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 17:55 (thirteen years ago) link
making this about "personal values" is a p good way to elide the questions of resource consumption that are at the heart of the issue
― ban drake (the rapper) (max), Monday, 25 April 2011 17:59 (thirteen years ago) link
And actually, the exurbs in the Seattle north-end aren't mini-mansiony at all, mostly full of fairly poor white folks. Most of the rich folks in the area live in older coastal towns like Mukilteo or Edmonds, or in Mill Creek, the 80s-era, covenant-guarded hellspawn of Earth.
― banjee trillness (The Reverend), Monday, 25 April 2011 17:59 (thirteen years ago) link
i dont think id get a lot of sympathy if i said that i, personally, value burning styrofoam on my fire escape every day
― ban drake (the rapper) (max), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:00 (thirteen years ago) link
what is the difference between a suburb and a small town?
― Land of Rap and Homies (kkvgz), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:01 (thirteen years ago) link
mostly full of fairly poor white folks.
And increasingly, latino.
― banjee trillness (The Reverend), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:02 (thirteen years ago) link
or, more accurately, that i, personally, value my styrofoam-burning enough to demand that it be incentivized thru public policy
― ban drake (the rapper) (max), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:02 (thirteen years ago) link
I think of a "small town" as being in a rural area, surrounded by fields or forests or mountains, not by other towns.
― banjee trillness (The Reverend), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:03 (thirteen years ago) link
I don't know to what degree anyone is arguing that suburbs don't use more than their proportional share of resources? And require a rigged system just to exist. But even people who acknowledge those facts can say, "But I don't care, I/my family/my parents want and deserve it." Probably where a nasty little term like "values" creeps in.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:03 (thirteen years ago) link
otm
― banjee trillness (The Reverend), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:04 (thirteen years ago) link
Suburbs are next to larger cities or are part of a metro area. I typically think of them as fulfilling resource or social needs from the larger city.
Again, it depends what we mean by "suburbs." I really think some of the old-growth, neighborhoods with parks and shops suburbs definitely work pretty well and have a place in the mesh of the agrarian/rural/suburban/dense city hierarchy.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 18:05 (thirteen years ago) link
Saying that all suburban dwellers use more than their "proportional" share of resources makes an assumption about what resources we're using, how renewable they are, what we deem to be an acceptable human population, and so on.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 18:06 (thirteen years ago) link
Thing is, seems like some people here are thinking that's the only attitude suburbanites have and that they could relatively easily move to a city, problem solved, but they're just too selfish to.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:11 (thirteen years ago) link
that is not what pro-density people are are saying, in this thread
― goole, Monday, 25 April 2011 18:12 (thirteen years ago) link
Pretty sure that regardless of what any of us think, shrinking energy resources are going to change how we move and live anyway. And no one has said that, but you have perfectly articulated how the suburban-defenders itt have HEARD what the pro-density people are saying, which is kinda getting butthurt when you have all the advantages, imo.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link
Yeah it's not what any one has said after they stopped saying it, you're right.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:15 (thirteen years ago) link
i totally am!
― goole, Monday, 25 April 2011 18:16 (thirteen years ago) link
I think there's a compromise to be recognized in that I don't believe we're all on the same page when it comes to an "optimal" way of living.
We could come up with an ideal -- like 1000 sq ft inside per person, a quarter acre of outside space per every three people, etc. to be fair, but then recognize that a fair number of people are going to want to deviate in either direction. I have no problem with people wanting more space, it's just the recognition that we need to do so responsibly, and perhaps not everyone who uses all this space really does want it all that much.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 18:18 (thirteen years ago) link
pretty sure i came up with the solution upthread
― ban drake (the rapper) (max), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:19 (thirteen years ago) link
we all move to new hampshire
I can see the appeal of the suburbs now that I have kids. But I still live in a (small) city. Don't think I myself could do it. Then again if I would have to buy a house: I'd move to the suburbs in a split second. A tiny tiny house is about 200.000 euros (talking two bedrooms max).
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Monday, 25 April 2011 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link
new hampshire is not the solution to any problem
― call all destroyer, Monday, 25 April 2011 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link
i don't think there is an optimal way of living! people should pay for what they're getting, is the point. because the real costs will be always be paid, somehow, in the end
― goole, Monday, 25 April 2011 18:21 (thirteen years ago) link
That's true, and really the point of the thread, and I'm just deviating off base.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 18:33 (thirteen years ago) link
goole pretty much said it all in two sentences.
on the earlier city/suburb confusion upthread: http://www.grist.org/#/cities/2011-04-21-suburbs-and-cities-stop-the-name-calling-already
that's generally how I think about and use the terms
― iatee, Monday, 25 April 2011 18:45 (thirteen years ago) link
does anybody actually disagree with this except strawmen? I'm as tax-and-spend as they come, tax people who consume resources & spend the money on any government project that helps people out
trying not to take bait elsewhere but feel like I gotta point out that the first six words of Oak Park's wiki are "Oak Park, Illinois is a suburb"
― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:06 (thirteen years ago) link
Wait, who's D-40, again? I thought it was aerosmith for a while, there, and this thread got really weird when he was arguing w himself.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:10 (thirteen years ago) link
deej
― a Guatemalan gay man who likes to gamble and smokes marijuana (The Reverend), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:11 (thirteen years ago) link
i love where i live. i don't know what you would call it. i loved living in a city too though. did NOT like living on an island. hey, after they build the new train station here i will be able to take the train down the street to NYC! woo hoo!
― scott seward, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:11 (thirteen years ago) link
what's pretty ridiculous is that my sister and I both live in Chicago suburbs, both a short walk from the train station, we're about 15 mins apart by car...but in order to take the train from my place to hers it'd mean 1st going all the way to Union Station to transfer. Would be 2hr journey.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:20 (thirteen years ago) link
how is that 'ridiculous'?
― goole, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:21 (thirteen years ago) link
how is it not
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:25 (thirteen years ago) link
I think the general idea is that certain suburban/exurban ways of life use resources disproportionately to taxation, especially city resources that are provided by a city but not paid for by neighboring suburbs.
Granny, that is because no one wants to go from suburb to suburb to the extent that it's worth building a direct point-to-point system. I think what you're saying is that neither of your suburbs has anything worth visiting on its own, but residents of both want to visit the city, right? :)
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:26 (thirteen years ago) link
Arguably there would be things called "buses"
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link
America having such shitty transit infrastructure *is* ridiculous, considering our wealth. but yeah, don't blame trains for not being able to do stuff that they can only do when the infrastructure exists. if the highways weren't regularly paved i imagine the drive would take more than 2 hours.
― iatee, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link
America has amazing transit infrastructure, it just assumes that everyone outside of a major city owns a car or two and the willingness to pay for road repairs and snowplows.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:29 (thirteen years ago) link
Granny, that is because no one wants to go from suburb to suburb to the extent that it's worth building a direct point-to-point system.
haha no, that is really not true. just as many if not more (and do non-work related travel) from suburb to suburb than from suburb to city in the Chicago area at this point.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:29 (thirteen years ago) link
omg you guys are complete asshole morons c ya
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link
here i've been blaming the TRAINS this whole time when it's really this thing called "infrastructure" that's to blame!
have you checked a bus schedule? i dunno.
does it seem like a good idea to build a train between two places with a 15 minute drive time? maybe it would be, if all other priorities were taken care of and it was part of a larger and longer traffic pattern. getting people around/between suburbs, which is a big need, ought to be done better in a lot of ways, the solution so far has basically been beltway freeways.
xp lol way to freak out touchypants
― goole, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link
How the hell am I an asshole for mentioning that a bus is more economical for two suburban destinations 15 minutes apart? That really makes no sense.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:34 (thirteen years ago) link
I think we're all assholes for not being more sympathetic to his outrage?
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:34 (thirteen years ago) link
uh isn't the problem with suburb to suburb transit that the burbs are so gd spread out that you basically need someone to pick you up in a car once you get there?
― call all destroyer, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:35 (thirteen years ago) link
omg you guys are complete asshole morons c ya --A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger)
http://blog.niot.net/blog-images/02_Sep/traffic-deaths-down-u-s-roads-reach-record-level-of-safety.jpg
and with those last words, he drove off, never to be seen or heard from again
― iatee, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:35 (thirteen years ago) link
Oh come aero, you should know better than citing wiki as your first point of reference. But seriously, yes, Oak Park is a suburb, but as someone pointed out itt, its kind of the difference between inner-ring and outer-ring suburbs.
― 'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?' (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link
15 years ago, the quickest way for me to get from my apartment in Minneapolis to my friends' house in St. Paul was to transfer at the Mall of America in Bloomington.
― Pleasant Plains, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link
Or drive a car.
I mean, if I had more time to fuck around with screenshots from google earth or wherever, I'd be able to point the very distinct and obvious difference between, say, downtown Evanston and Crystal Lake, both of which are very much suburbs of Chicago, but are wildly different in terms of density and walkability. I'd say Crystal Lake is far close to this thread's running "image" of a suburb.
― 'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?' (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 25 April 2011 19:38 (thirteen years ago) link
Looking at the Metra map (assuming that's the train Granny is referencing), it could be enhance by maybe one train doing a loop between the outgoing lines coming from downtown, but again, it's still a matter of determining what demand is serviced and whether it's economical.
More than anything, the reason such a thing probably doesn't exist is because the suburbs would have to drive it, and cooperation between suburbs is even worse than city-to-suburb interaction as far as I know.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 19:38 (thirteen years ago) link