Greece

Terminal pollution, enormous levels of corruption, tourist beach hell can all be found in many other places....

Corellimania - define please. There has been a worrying increase in the things I know nothing about since joining ILE (!). I could add Byronmania though, they love him, he helped to liberate 'em from the Turks and lots of Greek men are now named after him (ok, they pronounce it "viron", but still...)

birthplace of hem hem democracy - yes, not democracy as we know it today, but that wouldn't have come about without the initial efforts of the Greeks

loadsaruins - yes and although the Parthenon is being damaged by the pollution you mentioned, the archaelogical treats in Greece are particularly fine and gave us the ideas for neo-Classical architecture. Oxfrod doesn't have much but would be poorer without Queens College, the Clarendon Building, Freuds and OUP.

GOATS - yes, they eat your clothes, but aren't too keen on sweaty clothes as induced by Gossip gigs, apprently.

kebabs - every major food group in one handy package!

but Romans "couldn't be bothered to make up Gods" = most hilarious post of day

Riots, strikes, teargas...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/11/greece-riots

Look out below!

The yield on 10-year Greek bonds blasted upwards by over 40 basis points to 7.15pc in a day of wild trading. Spreads over German Bunds reached almost four percentage points, by far the highest since Greece joined the euro, and close to levels that risk a self-feeding spiral. Contagion hit Portuguese, Spanish, Irish, and Italian bonds.

George Papandreou, the Greek premier, said in Davos that his country had been singled out as the weak link in a "attack on the eurozone" by speculators and political foes. "We are being targeted, particularly by those with an ulterior motive."

Oh, so many bad references in this story.

The movement of capital gives me the vertigo sometimes.

lots of casual racism against greeks in that article. portuguese get off all easy

KABOOM

(AP): "Police in the Greek capital say a bomb has exploded at the offices of American financial services firm JPMorgan Chase & Co., causing no injuries.

The blast occurred early evening Tuesday in an upscale area of central Athens, following a warning telephone call to an Athens newspaper.

The extent of the damage was not immediately clear."

Reuters spoke to an unamed police official at the scene who said the device, "was a time-bomb outside JP Morgan's offices at the second floor of an Athens building," and added "the explosion damaged the door, furniture, computers and smashed some windows."

people of europe, rise up
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/04/greek-protesters-storm-th_n_563341.html

conservative american douches, unite. complain the usa is headed where greece is, so we should cut taxes
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/05/15/learning_from_greece_105601.html
when the problem in greece is that nobody pays taxes

so my bf and I are going to go to Greece for a holiday, in August (yes, peak tourist season)

any advice? I reckon some UK folks (i'm American btw) might have insight as it's a pretty popular tourist destination

any must sees or must-avoids?

We have ten days, we are flying in and out of Athens.

I'm thinking San Torini and Crete and we won't have time for much else, but really, just weigh in with advice here plz

Yes, please help with this RFI as I'm also considering a stay in Greece, albeit for considerably longer

Be careful where you go in Crete, some of it has a very lairy package holiday vibe. The north side of the island is nice - round Rethimnon somewhere. We stayed in a fishing village called Panormo which is beautiful and chilled. There's an old dude who runs a taverna who, rather than giving you a menu, takes you into his kitchen and shows you everything cooking.

I've heard that Athens is a bit manky once you've seen the obvious stuff.

I'd say Santorini and Crete would be at the top of the list. Crete is a long way from Athens though - about a day on a ferry. Can you fly direct there instead of Athens? Hopefully the ferries aren't as squalid as when I last did island hopping (mid 80's!. In Crete the Samaria Gorge is fantastic.

Santorini is also a fair old distance from Piraeus by ferry - 8 hours or so? It's great though - nice old harbour with very steep steps up to the town. Boat trips to the volcano and hot springs are really good and there's a ruined, abandoned village from the earthquake in the early 1950's. Don't go on the black sand beaches without flip flops!!

Greece has changed massively since then, so a more up-to-date view would be useful for you I guess.

xpost - Athens is not quite as manky post-Olympics.

Beware of the meltemi. It is the Greek version of the scirrocco.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/the-way-greeks-live-now.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17067104

Reading the second article (Paul Mason) absolutely convinces me that if conditions were less fragile in Europe that Greece would be much better off leaving the euro and defaulting. The sticky wicket is that, if Greece defaults, the implications for the world financial system are huge enough to blow back massively on Greece.

Their tourism industry would crash if Americans and Europeans couldn't afford Greek vacations, and their tourism industry is virtually their only industry. They are up the spigot either way, but I wouldn't blame them if they tried going down the road of default.

(**starts airing out the emergency shelter**)

They have bears in Greece: http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/16942903

They used to have lions, too, a few millennia ago before they were hunted to extinction. (That's how lions became a symbol of Hera.)

Oh, and thanks to the procession of the equinoxes, the Southern Cross was visible as far north as Greece. (They considered it a part of Centaurus, I believe.)

Visible several thousand years ago, I mean.

xp: Aimless et al.
A Greek default would be a boon to the tourism industry, but terrible for average Greek wages and living standards. Estimates I've seen for the devaluation of a new drachma, once floated, range from 40-70%. Many more northern Europeans would consider a trip to Mykonos at half-cost.

Greek public sector salaries doubled in the 2000-2008, private grew dramatically as well, both far in advance of (35% faster than) productivity gains. Such is the boon and pitfall of credit bubbles. For the Greeks, restoring export competitiveness through devaluation is a quick, politically more palatable alternative to cutting them over time through economic depression and labor contract renegotiations.

The Troika is arguably taking a harder line now than in the spring 2011 because the Greek government has undertaken very very few of the austerity measures promised during the last €140 billion "kick the can down the road" bailout. It follows, that the economic depression the Greeks currently face is primarily due to the withdrawal of private credit (both from European banks becoming wary and locals removing a third of bank deposits), rather than state austerity. I've tried (and failed) to find good data on just how much private debt is hanging over Greeks, but I suspect that like the U.S. and especially the UK, it is several times larger than the $1.2 trillion government debt. Since this debt is governed by national law, a default and devalued drachma would also cut the private debt burden, though new credit would remain scarce.

Good backgrounders:

Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds (Oct 2010 Vanity Fair feature by Michael Lewis) I'm pretty sure someone linked this above.

This American Life episode on the Euro crisis (Jan 2012) 1hr audio. About half devoted to the Greece story.

Choose Your Own Troika Program for Greece Excellent think piece on the travails of finding a resolution to the Greek debt crisis, in the form of a classic Choose Your Own Adventure book. Try not to go "The Full Argentina".

Default, Exit, and Devaluation as the Optimal Solution A lengthy technical piece on the mechanics of exiting the Euro.

Forgot to add, the ECB has of late been lending out €498 billion in LTRO (long term refinancing operations) to banks, as have several other central banks, as a sort of preemptive reliquification pending a potential Greek default. You can see the effects on the equity and commodity indices. The private banks themselves have long written down the values of their Greek debt holdings. So the external effects of a Greek default, provided it isn't followed in quick succession by other states (ie Portugal) will be pretty negligible.

Yeah I've been reading a lot about how time has been used relatively well by the ECB and the private sector to accomodate the default - which will surely come, just a question of when, although perhaps Greece will stay in the Eurozone.

Otoh, also read about the interconnectedness of the financial sector which seems to mean there are many parts of the whole that own Greek debt and don't know they do (?) so when it happens it seems that a lot of firefighting has been done but there is a don't know about it all -- it could be another Lehnmann Brothers, still.

Thanks for that last link Sanpaku.

thanks for those links, Sanpaku. I am also interested by the suggestion that Greece's current depression is more caused by withdrawal of credit than by state austerity programmes.

That choose your own adventure thing would be better if it was like the legendary "You are Ronald Reagan" thing, only it was "You are the Prime Minister of Greece", and whatever you chose you ended up being chased out of the country by a pitchfork wielding mob.

happy Oxi Day!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig8sgY5vRWM

Any particularly good areas to stay / avoid in Athens?

Any pretty islands that are good to visit out of season?

How far out of season? We chose Naxos in early April on the basis that only the bigger islands would have anything (like hotels) going on then.

wrt Athens I haven't stayed anywhere I'd particularly recommend. This is my favourite restaurant though: http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g189400-d1045572-Reviews-Karavitis_Tavern-Athens_Attica.html

i'm going to mykonos soon

I'm going in September; week near Athens followed by ten days of unspecified island hopping. Would be interested to hear recommendations too,

Thanks! I'm going to be in Athens on business for the best part of a week in September but was considering going further afield on holiday in mid October, or so.

The island recommendations I was given when planning my out-of-season trip were Andros, Syros, Paros and Naxos. Crete obviously also an option if you're happy to fly or take a longer boat journey.

actually i'm only going to mykonos for a night. after i'm taking a ferry to koufonisia -

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Ano+Koufonisi,+Greece/@36.9258513,25.6449636,11z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x1498032e94d5e33f:0x3752aa34a3dc7f7a

never been to greece before but after seeing the two faces of january i'm looking forward to a little whiskey and intrigue

bye bye..

Ζήτω η Ελλάς!

Antetokounmpo often stayed at the gym practicing until near midnight, sleeping there on an exercise mat in the weight room for fear of heading home in the darkness. Fascists and neo-Nazis affiliated with the Golden Dawn political party roamed the neighborhood menacing immigrants

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/03/sports/giannis-antetokounmpo-greece.html

Article title is : Giannis Antetokounmpo is the Pride of a Greece that Shunned Him

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/23/athens-wildfires-people-fleeing-homes-still-tourists-fly-in

Damn, but also why would anyone travel in July

British ppl

The quick answer (in our case) is that it was the only time the whole lot of us were free. We were mostly on Naxos, though, which was a lot cooler than the mainland (though still hot), and while we left just as the big heatwave arrived, there were still fires on our island, with smoke and helicopters dropping water and whatnot; it's a pretty arid climate in the best of circumstances. Athens was super hot even the week before, though, and just as hot when we left. The Acropolis (which shut down due to the heat and crowds a few days after we visited) doesn't have much in the way of shade, which makes it pretty uncomfortable for those without a hat and water bottle.

I swear to god I saw someone at the top wearing a sweater, though, which was pretty weird. You can see them at the fore here:
https://i.imgur.com/JIyO8Vk.jpg

Kids are off school from right about now so there will have been a big surge over the last couple of days.