Psychoactive Substances: Rolling UK Politics in The Neo-Con Era

as someone who has experienced what bnp/NF/ukip supporters can do, i dont esp welcome a red ukip, nor do i want labour to reject immigration. but i would welcome any left wing govt who attempts to understand, address, and placate the anger of their former voters (though perhaps many of these former labour voters are too far gone now, or were always scum in the first place), without necessarily emboldening their racism. this is what labour should do.

JC has been making the right noises - this is about cuts and this non-recession we have been in since '08. Their anger needs to be re-directed the moment it gets into racism.

https://imgur.com/gallery/dhwPLtv

https://twitter.com/emmakennedy/status/747759988161060865

JC has been making the right noises - this is about cuts and this non-recession we have been in since '08. Their anger needs to be re-directed the moment it gets into racism.

He is making the right noises. If the result of the referendum is anything to go by then he isn't getting the right people to listen to him.

The only alternative to not stabbing them in the back is cutting our own throats though.

telling "them" and "us" there, but srsly, you can't articulate this position without defending some kind of privileged class that can ignore democratic votes when it doesn't suit. blame Cameron or whoever, sure, but nobody noticed "Advisory" in big letters anywhere on the ballot paper

That's what advisory literally means - a result that can be ignored. If Leave wants to argue that all its voters were well-informed and knew what they were getting into it can't simultaneously cry that they didn't know it wasn't binding

nobody noticed "Advisory" but then most people didn't notice "Won't reduce immigration or precipitate immediate repatriation of anyone that *you* think isn't British or just shouldn't be here"

If it looks like the government is ignoring this then the fury will be so intense that the Leave share of the vote may be even larger next time round. This just isn't a rational thing. They will keep banging the drum louder and louder until Britain eventually does leave.

Yes, this is why I think getting us out of this hole requires a politician who can explain why they're not getting what they want -- viz, 1. You were lied to, 2. It's obviously much more dangerous than you were told and then say 3. Given this are you sure? If so vote for a pro-Leave party at this here general election.

I think there's a good order of difference between questioning the validity of people's reasons for voting for a cause and questioning their belief that a national referendum conducted in the same way as other political elections might be legally binding

There's no 'other' there - this wasn't an election.

"The only alternative to not stabbing them in the back is cutting our own throats though.

― stet"

honestly, a lot of the damage has been done already. the metaphor i'd go for is that the majority of voters have stabbed britain in the face. i can't say for sure that this won't prove fatal to britain, and certainly i understand the desire for self-preservation, but i do think there needs to be an understanding of the cost. failing to honor the results of this referendum would not just be a stab in the back to the voters, but to global democracy, which is already being pretty sorely threatened everywhere.

right now, there is a man running for president of the united states, and he is getting up and cheering britain, and he is saying that this is what he wants america to be like. and those of us with the slightest bit of sense in our heads, we are horrified, because here's somebody openly proclaiming that, if elected, he will immediately turn the entirety of the most powerful country in the world into a disaster area. a guy like that doesn't have particularly strong chances of winning the presidency.

now, say the british political leadership declares they will not honor the results of the referendum. suddenly this guy is saying that the powers that be can't be trusted to respect the will of the people, and he's got incontrovertible evidence. suddenly this guy is looking a lot more electable.

that's not even getting into what the long-term effects for british government would be. there's no point in temporarily limiting the effects of the bleeding when mr. "you're not laughing now" is waiting in the wings to pull the band-aid off again.

it's ok, if we just say "it wasn't a real vote" long enough everybody will be chill

The voters, sure. For the Leave campaign leaders, it's inexcusable.

They should have been talking about it all the time, getting lots of cast-iron guarantees it would be honoured etc etc. But of course they were shambolic dissemblers who didn't want it to happen either, so eh.

xp gd points rushomancy. This is why everyone everywhere is saying "we must leave, the people have spoken" even though they're clearly all giving themselves space to not walk away at all.

Nobody will ever say they're not honouring the referendum. They'll say they are clarifying it, or re-iterating support for it now the many details are known. A referendum can't bind a whole new government elected on an explicit no-exit manifesto either.

The only person this could truly have bound has *already* ignored it, and quit instead of implementing it. The only people left who could still be strongly bound are Johnson/Gove, should either of them become leaders and not dissolve the govt.

the weight of the lies here, on all sides, is truly colossal. all of the promises the leave campaigners made were lies. cameron's promise to invoke article 50 if Leave won was a lie. at this point i'd be hard-pressed to find a single honest statement made by anybody over the length of the campaign.

and that's the throat-cutting. all of these lies are being exposed, and nobody trusts britain right now. so you're facing four months of prolonged agony until the next election, because there is nobody in power who is willing to fulfill the democratically expressed will of the people or to honor their promises. maybe at this point you should start considering just turning over absolute rule of the country to the queen.

corbyn was only six out of 10 for remain but said he was seven(!)

Will any Labour MP stand for leader with an unambiguous pledge to keep Britain in the EU? I think they might beat Corbyn if that happens.

lol that would make Corbyn the pragmatic electable one facing a challenge from an ideologue sure to be soundly rejected in middle england

He is making the right noises. If the result of the referendum is anything to go by then he isn't getting the right people to listen to him.

Name anybody in Lab else who does this - and will not sound like a racist in the process - and I'll buy you a can of capitalist Coca-Cola

Would be interesting if it is A. Eagle they decide on given that she backed the war in Iraq and Chilcot is a week away. Her constituency members have written to her demanding she doesn't back the vote of no confidence. She's far more likely to have the confidence of The Economist, etc than Watson.

nicholaswatt: Labour vote. 172 no confidence in @jeremycorbyn 40 have confidence. 216 voted

Oofff

More than enough for a shadow cabinet! He must be delighted.

In seriousness, he can get on the ballot with those numbers, should he wish to and should they stick with him.

I wonder if Corbyn had any kind of resignation threshold or if he would have hung on if everyone except McDonnell and Diane Abbott had voted against him. And whether that number exceeds his threshold.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl59GzrWIAIwM0i.jpg

How many 40-year-olds will pass into their reactionary 50s though? The boom had a long tail

also lol

yeah his "even if nobody changes their mind" point is actually "assuming nobody changes their mind and a ton of other stuff"

but still yes lol

Let's say that Labour somehow manage to unearth the next Barack Obama from round the back of a seat in the commons and they beat Corbyn. In that scenario, there's basically zero chance that the next Tory leader would agree to a snap election, right?

feel deeply wounded that 'will brambley' gets paid more attention on ilx than me. looking at the numbers more closely though, with over 65s only 60/40 in favour of leave it would take more like 10 years to tip the balance with everything else being equal &c. &c.

Got to be a Labour breakaway party now, no?

Please

In that scenario, there's basically zero chance that the next Tory leader would agree to a snap election, right?

Boris already minded to rule one out, apparently:

https://twitter.com/rosschawkins/status/747810917660921856

who breaks away from who though? xp

Aaaaaaand Boris has appointed Lynton Crosby to lead his campaign, which is like putting a petrol bomb on a fire.

The fight is now chiefly over which wing gets to keep the 'Labour' brand. xp

Yes, the following scenario works:

Labour MPs defect en masse to new party whose leader they can work under. Pro-Corbyn membership gets to keep their own leader with rump of MPs.

Am struggling to think how it would work with the anti-Corbyn MPs keeping the Labour name.

seems insane/typical of british politics that a mass defection on that scale wouldn't trigger an election

have been wistfully thinking about matt dc's 'end of season finale' thing from the hazy days of the newscorp crisis, jesus what innocent times those were

sdp.org.uk is free

And in a general election you can have candidates of a split Labour standing against one another in Labour strongholds - UKIP can win some seats then.

The only time Corbyn's likely to have any influence over them is if they did split and later needed his party's backing in a coalition.

I can't seem them doing it though. If it was a neat geographical split or a smaller party, perhaps, but this is a political machine that is hugely divided at every level throughout the country. How does, for example, Angela Eagle even campaign effectively as an MP if her local constituency party fails to follow her into the new party? How does Name TBC survive without unions, etc?

have been wistfully thinking about matt dc's 'end of season finale' thing from the hazy days of the newscorp crisis, jesus what innocent times those were

― coygbiv (NickB), Tuesday, June 28, 2016 12:26 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

Yeah I think the whole series might be about to finish. Maybe there'll be a spin-off, or at least a few extras for the box set.

How does, for example, Angela Eagle even campaign effectively as an MP if her local constituency party fails to follow her into the new party? How does Name TBC survive without unions, etc?

They are clever people, sure they'll come up with something by conference time. They plotted this psychodrama for long enough.

Aaaaaaand Boris has appointed Lynton Crosby to lead his campaign, which is like putting a petrol bomb on a fire.

had got it down to persistent anxiety and misery, now right back up to Friday/Monday levels of sick terror again.

there was this telegraph story is suggesting that if Corbyn stays Labour MPs are considering "breaking away" but still staying in the Labour party, it seems crazy but who knows:

The idea is for the PLP to elect a new leader, create its own shadow cabinet and effectively begin operating as a distinct Labour Party totally separate from Mr Corbyn.

Crucially, Labour rebels believe they would have control of “short money”, the public funding given to political parties for staffing and organisation.

It would create technical difficulties within Parliament, such as who leads Prime Minister’s Questions. Some experts have suggested John Bercow, the Commons Speaker, would decide who the official Opposition leader is in such circumstances.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/labour-rebels-plan-party-within-a-party/

that is nuts

hey the Papacy pulled this off for decades