OMG I WANT THIS AMAZING RONALDINHO BOTTLE OPENER

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And all I'm saying is that we should be celebrating Ronaldinho's legs and feet - since he is such a great football player - and pay less attention to his teeth -which is stupid because the guy is very handsome!
The bottle opener is stupid, and I hope people didn't buy it. It's racist and ugly - and, stupid!
Has Ronaldinho himself weighed in on the bottle opener? That's what I want to know. Also, he had great hair in a few of the photos posted above.

"Ronaldinho sits at a baccarat table in St. Moritz while studying the ILX thread about him. Hmmm, he says - perhaps I SHOULD take that offer in the Los Angeles. But perhaps not.I llick my teeth with anticipation."

― aimurchie, Saturday, 24 March 2007 02:13 (seventeen years ago) link

<em>what i find astonishing is the idea that britain is somehow "over" race in a way the US is not</em>

FWIW, I don't think this is something any Briton with any sense would suggest.

― caek, Saturday, 24 March 2007 02:37 (seventeen years ago) link

damn this thread!

so late no one will read this but: i think it's obvious the bottle opener is racist (im not only american, but a southerner--that's my context).

on the other hand, we can agree probably that there are NO representations that are in-and-of-themselves racist. it's impossible for a representation to be racist without some cultural or historical context which makes it so. there is no a priori racist iconography.

what seems to be the crux here, then, is that some people are shocked at other people for not sharing or being blithely ignorant of the contexts which make the bottle opener racist, and those who choose to ignore or remain ignorant of this context are aghast that they might be expected to be aware of it.

what makes it difficult for me in judging cases like this is that i am often honestly not sure sometimes if something is racist or not (when in doubt, it probably is!) and if pressed on something like the bottle opener (which issues from a cultural context i dont know much about) i could only answer: "it depends".

― ryan, Saturday, 24 March 2007 02:40 (seventeen years ago) link

ha but every time i scroll to the top of this thread i think "damn that's racist!"

― ryan, Saturday, 24 March 2007 02:42 (seventeen years ago) link

dom yeah that makes more sense, i don't know why i thought that.

― Tracer Hand, Saturday, 24 March 2007 02:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Wittgenstein takes it!

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 24 March 2007 02:52 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost that is

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 24 March 2007 02:52 (seventeen years ago) link

also id just like to throw out my opinion that the idea of "latent" racism doesn't make a lick of sense and should pretty much go away forever!

― ryan, Saturday, 24 March 2007 03:08 (seventeen years ago) link

the idea of "latent" racism doesn't make a lick of sense

How are you defining latent racism?

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 24 March 2007 03:42 (seventeen years ago) link

lol this thread. i've never been so consistently entertained by reading five or so randomly chosen posts since dave matthews band, why are they so bad and hated.

― strgn, Saturday, 24 March 2007 03:53 (seventeen years ago) link

HOOSten, we have a problem!

― Wrinklepaws, Saturday, 24 March 2007 03:54 (seventeen years ago) link

how to google-trap football hooligans?

― strgn, Saturday, 24 March 2007 03:56 (seventeen years ago) link

omg hi-five strongo

― Wrinklepaws, Saturday, 24 March 2007 03:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Can't see how this is rascist...as i doubt the people who sat down to design the bottle opener were thinking to continue the stereotypes from the Darkie toothpaste etc. upthread, rather it's Ronaldinho they were looking to represent. it would be hard to over estimate how much of a big deal this guy is in football around the world, if this isn't your frame of reference then i geuss it sets off rascism warning bells.

Does anyone actually have anything like this? I mean i had a pair of John Barnes shin pads, but a bottle opener, well that's a different league!

― optimus, Saturday, 24 March 2007 05:05 (seventeen years ago) link

what i find astonishing is the idea that britain is somehow "over" race in a way the US is not, given that britain continued to administrate and rule nations full of millions of people with different color skin well into the 20th century

Tracer otm; I will admit that this notion gives me the wig and it's probably why I kept posting basically the same thing in this thread repeatedly. I'd wager that there are plenty of nonwhite Britons with ancestral connections to former British colonies that don't think Britain is over race.

― horseshoe, Saturday, 24 March 2007 05:12 (seventeen years ago) link

i dont think anyone is suggesting britain is over race. i think people are suggesting that britain and america have different histories in regard to race, which means that different images and representations will have different contexts, and that some will seem much worse and more powerful in one setting than another, and vice versa

cf, for example, there are many such representations that neither brits or americans would recognise (how familiar are we with turkish representations of armenians?)

― 600, Saturday, 24 March 2007 07:14 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't believe I'm engaging in this debate, but...
MarkC you are claiming him as if the UK owns him!
That's kind of creepy!

No, I'm not claiming him for the UK at all. If you want to see my posts as making a claim at all, it's as a football fan - as you made clear, it's as a footballer that he's beloved.

― Mark C, Saturday, 24 March 2007 09:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Thank you, Mark C, for putting what I wanted to say better than I ever could!

― unfished business, Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:27 (seventeen years ago) link

i think my favorite strand of argument here is "ronaldinho is very famous and well-liked, so how could this be racist"

― Tracer Hand, Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:33 (seventeen years ago) link

what i find astonishing is the idea that britain is somehow "over" race in a way the US is not

No-one's saying that. Some British people != Britain, neither do some US people = the US.

If those people said "oh, I guess I can see why it's bothersome to some people, even though that wasn't really foremost in my mind," then I don't think there'd be any argument (and I don't think anyone would accuse them of anything at all over it, except just having a different experience and level of attention to these things).

Will I look like I'm trying to defend myself too much if I say "of course I understand why people think this is racist even if I myself do not" (which I have done since way early in this thread, even though I haven't felt I needed to say it)? What would also be nice is if people who *do* see this as racist above anything else could perhaps give a little more credence to those of us who don't, and understand (especially when myself, Mark, Onimo, several others) have clearly explained our thought processes as to why we see it as a fairly effective parody of a well-known and easily-parodied figure and not as OMG RACIST.

His most obvious physical feature is probably his leg(s,) since that's what keeps the fans cheering.

Spot the person who doesn't watch football!

― ailsa, Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Er, misplaced parentheses and unended sentence there. I meant:

"...and understand (especially when myself, Mark, Onimo & several others have clearly explained our thought processes as to why we see it as a fairly effective parody of a well-known and easily-parodied figure and not as OMG RACIST) that it is not a signifier of any sort of racism inherent in any of us or in the UK as a whole".

Can some Australians or something please have an opinion so as to stop making this so UK vs US (even though some UK ILXors are disagreeing with some of the others, so it isn't anyway).

― ailsa, Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Muscular physique: 3

After taking over fellow Brazilian Ronaldo's mantle as best player in the world, then his buck tooth throne, he is now being accused of being too fat:

http://www.theoffside.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/ronaldinho-fat.jpg

― onimo, Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:52 (seventeen years ago) link

(if that's fat I wish I was)

― onimo, Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:53 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah, as well as the US/UK divide there's been a second, complicating one, the soccer fan/non soccer fan schism. that the two have largely overlapped has caused no little confusion/anger.

I'm finding it nearly impossible to square "what's the fuss?" with 'recognising the inherent racism'.

Except we haven't 'recognised the inherent racism'. 'Inherent' racism would imply that the bottle-opener is in itself a racist artefact, an item designed to identify itself with racism. My argument throughout has been that it is not, but that its SIMILARITY to ACTUAL racist memorabilia has, understandably, caused consternation in more than a few people.

― unfished business, Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Though the before and after does suggest he's enjoying the good life.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/3421/dinhoam9.jpg

― onimo, Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:55 (seventeen years ago) link

haha you guys - ailsa, onimo, lj, barry - it makes no diff whether ronaldinho is good at soccer or not, or whether he is beloved or not

it also makes no diff whether you yourself personally thought "this bottle opener is weirdly suspect" when you saw it, or not, so there is nothing to "defend yourself" about

― Tracer Hand, Saturday, 24 March 2007 13:25 (seventeen years ago) link

hes a tubby lad these days isnt he?

anyway, just as the mantle has gone from ronaldo to ronaldinho, so it goes to (cristiano) ronaldo?

― 600, Saturday, 24 March 2007 14:50 (seventeen years ago) link

is CR really that good though?? maybe he's gotten better? the last time i really paid attention to him was during Euro 2004

― Tracer Hand, Saturday, 24 March 2007 15:23 (seventeen years ago) link

erm, he's easily been the player of the season in the 06/07 Premiership, so yeah, he is that good!

― unfished business, Saturday, 24 March 2007 15:28 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm weirdly satisfied this thread has moved to actual discussion of the sport.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 24 March 2007 17:03 (seventeen years ago) link

i can change that really quickly, if you'd like.

but i won't :)

fwiw, though: i'm far more in tune with what could broadly be described as the US point of view on this thread than with the "UK" one.

― grimly fiendish, Saturday, 24 March 2007 17:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Remind us what you think of football, Simon?

― Mark C, Saturday, 24 March 2007 17:16 (seventeen years ago) link

i think it's a cancer at the heart of society! fuck's sake, the number of braying morons wandering around the place today chanting unintelligible shit, steamingly pissed two hours before the game (scotland vs georgia, i think; i had to look it up) actually started ... what the fuck is the point in that? GET DRUNK AFTERWARDS, DICKWADS.

i've nothing against the game itself, just everything that goes with it :)

and no, until various images of the guy were posted on this thread, i don't think i'd have recognised ronaldinho if he was kicking me in the balls.

but even now that i've got some idea what the bloke looks like, i still don't see what that fucking travesty of a bottle-opener is meant to resemble at all, except ... well, except something dreadfully and horribly wrong :(

― grimly fiendish, Saturday, 24 March 2007 17:29 (seventeen years ago) link

I think the main divide in this thread is the 'those previously acquainted with Ronaldinho/those not', although, again, there are anomalies (such as Matt DC, but that's what you get for being a Spurs fan, I suppose).

Back to football, I suppose it'll thrill you to know that Scotland got an incredibly late winner, so those 'braying morons' will be particularly exultant this fine evening. Especially if the southern pansies cock it up against Israel.

― unfished business, Saturday, 24 March 2007 17:40 (seventeen years ago) link

hurrah! better a cheerful fan than a miserable fan!

and CURSES CURSES i feel a twinge of national pride CHIZ fuck.

and i actually have a tremendous soft-spot for the tartan army; their hordes aren't actually too twattish, as these things go.

― grimly fiendish, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:16 (seventeen years ago) link

you're not nearly as bad as our fans. :-(

― unfished business, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:17 (seventeen years ago) link

I think the main divide in this thread is the 'those previously acquainted with Ronaldinho/those not'

^^^ i dont think this is the case at all

i think the divide is more along the lines of the things that people are aware of, growing up...not just aware of, but to an extent where it would be realised *immediately*...rather than 'oh yea, i see what you mean now'

this is where stevem and amongst others have brought depictions of south asians in america into the picture, to show a flipside example, though stevem didnt make a particularly convincing case with this

ie...is this kind of imagery...american imagery or not? if so, how cogniscent should non-americans be?

but ^^^ this is really only in regard to initial thoughts,. after its been pointed out, well, you know, the 'its not racist' line kind of is much harder to pursue, the 'i didnt think it was racist at first' line is all about awareness of certain images in first place, and how aware of them people are in different locations.

which means people are defending the 2nd position, but sort of using the first position to defend the 2nd position

― 600, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:24 (seventeen years ago) link

louis i lived in barcelona so i think i have some semblance of an idea who ronaldinho is and i STILL thought, IMMEDIATELY, that the bottle-opener was more or less unredeemably racist.

― max, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:26 (seventeen years ago) link

which kinda makes this discussion somewhere along the lines of

those who think this is racist vs those who didnt notice the racist connotations at first

its ok to admit the 2nd! i didnt think it at first, i just thought, theres ronaldinho again. but...im not the world! i didnt notice a man was running for the bus yesterday, at first. but he was still running. he didnt need to wait for me to notice until he started doing it

i was embarrassed about that too

― 600, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:28 (seventeen years ago) link

"president bush, i'm sorry to inform you sir, but the british have shot a brazillian on the london subway."

"a brazillian?!? that's a heckuva lot of terr'rists!"

― hstencil, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:30 (seventeen years ago) link

i'm fully aware of the iconographic history that this item is being attached to. i just think that the attachment itself is bogus, for the reasons i have outlined.

― Roberto Spiralli, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:31 (seventeen years ago) link

argh let's not start again, OKAY IT'S RACIST, now i'm off to listen to the footy :-D

― unfished business, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:32 (seventeen years ago) link

i think the divide is more along the lines of the things that people are aware of, growing up...not just aware of, but to an extent where it would be realised *immediately*...rather than 'oh yea, i see what you mean now'

i think this is too kind, really.

― lex pretend, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Gareth is somewhat OTM, I think. Part of the issue with this thread is that the topic being discussed is not one where anyone wants to admit being wrong, as being wrong either implies A) you are a racist; or B) you are a racist.

― HI DERE, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:41 (seventeen years ago) link

well i think lexxy jagger just implied that i was a racist.

are you at the red lion tonite lexxy jagger?

― 600, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:46 (seventeen years ago) link

actually, for those of you (and, er, well me actually) who didnt think it at first...

...look at the pic again...cover the number 10 brasil shirt with your hand....

...would you immediately think...thats ronaldinho!

i actually...wouldnt.

its only when turned to the side, with the hair, that i might think it (without the shirt)

― 600, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:49 (seventeen years ago) link

Part of the issue with this thread is that the topic being discussed is not one where anyone wants to admit being wrong

I would just like to point out that I am 1000% OTM on this entire thread.

― g®▲Ðұ, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:50 (seventeen years ago) link

ie, put clothes/uniform on a person and your mind does the rest. because as has been said, he doesnt actually have big teeth

― 600, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:51 (seventeen years ago) link

i wish my craig bellamy and el hadji diouf threads had attracted this much interest

ailsa was wrong on the dioufy thread as well. pretty much everyone was except me, on that one

― 600, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:52 (seventeen years ago) link

he's famous for having big teeth, whether it's true or not.

the bottle opener is a commercial incarnation of Ronaldinho's worldwide celebrity as an individual with big teeth. if the opener is racially offensive, by extension the notion of a black man being famous for having big teeth is also racially offensive. my sensibilities aren't offended by that, although clearly some people's are, and such is the variety of human experience and understanding. i'm not going to lose sleep over whether that makes me a racist because of course it doesn't.

i'd love to know whether Ronaldinho is racially offended by his fame for having big teeth. if anyone sees him out and about, perhaps they could ask.

― Roberto Spiralli, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:53 (seventeen years ago) link

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