Maturity is counter-revolutionary!
Err ... well, yes, more mature and more finely wrought, and I actually sometimes wish it were still the standard for older men now to write grand S.E./Dance-to-the-Music-of-Time books about the milieus of their younger days (if only so we'd have more interesting cultural continuity), but ... well, basically Bovary has slightly more shopping
― nabisco, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:54 (sixteen years ago) link
Hornby is disdainful of pop culture, though – or, rather, pop culture's ok as long as it affirms the Importance of Art.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 24 September 2007 13:54 (sixteen years ago) link
well, basically Bovary has slightly more shopping
Somebody give this man tenure!!
― J0hn D., Monday, 24 September 2007 13:58 (sixteen years ago) link
(acrobat: if that's Hornby's point, then it's hardly what I'm saying - only that, y'know, the adolescent urge toward seeing art as the thing which can be elevated in importance above all matters human & social [not only adolescent though lol, I think Flaubert believed exactly that] is hardly the last stop on the line)
― J0hn D., Monday, 24 September 2007 13:59 (sixteen years ago) link
what he said
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:01 (sixteen years ago) link
Flaubert's also tracing how adolescent virtues decay, and how adolescent virtues reveal themselves as rather ordinary longings when maturing.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:01 (sixteen years ago) link
"slightly more shopping" = high-level Marxist/materialist analysis
― nabisco, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:09 (sixteen years ago) link
I jus read
None of the above. Artists overrate art as a reason to live.
-- Aimless, Monday, 24 September 2007 05:15 (9 hours ago) Bookmark Link
through
co-sign with aimless even though I feel bitter about it
-- J0hn D., Monday, 24 September 2007 14:07 (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Link
and my kneejerked.
there was this mad as a box review of that simon reynolds post punk book. it's main arguement was that the post punk period was only of any importance because of the Rock Against Racism movement and the damage this wrought to the National Front. it probably wasn't mad as a box. that's unfair. very unfair. i have not read Flaubert but i have read some nick hornby. this is proably bad, right? anyway, surely "art" can be solidarity as well as the other stuff? it can be communication and community cos "art" is made by people and consumed by people and er stuff. is that... adorno? i don't know. maybe this is just about Prefab Sprout. "somethings hurt more than cars and girls"... right?
― acrobat, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:12 (sixteen years ago) link
i think that was that crazy trot ben watson, reviewing grimey simey.
'madame bovary' is part (start?) of (basically) art for art's sake, or that's how he went down in the UK. perfection in art -- formal perfection -- is all. and that mindset is adolescent or at least cosseted.
but there are other types of art, that maybe connect with life and lived experience more. but even still the idea that those things -- things 'about' life -- make life worth living seems to me almost a paradox?
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:20 (sixteen years ago) link
Like The Beautiful South?
― acrobat, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:25 (sixteen years ago) link
why not.
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:26 (sixteen years ago) link
hmm i think i am misinterpreting a little. i think maybe "art" could be thought of like a tool, it's far better for doing somethings with than others. and if it makes you happy isn't that a reason to live? this kind of makes everything a hierachy, which seems wrong. like the smiths lp = 12 points of happy but getting amrried = 100 points or something. i am now thinking of that scene in children of men where clive owen meets his cousin with all the art and then um...
is adolescent pleasure really so bad? hmm i think i am still misinterpreting.
― acrobat, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:38 (sixteen years ago) link
i think of needing reasons to live as a bad thing. like, if you're at the point where you need to count or name things that make life worth living -- not a good sign! and if all you can come up with is not so much art, as specific art-works, then YAAAOOOW. and i think woody is playing us in the film, or owning up that he's played himself and that what *really* matters is the teenage piece of ass he's somehow acquired.
but this thread doesn't carry that narrative function, as it were.
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:43 (sixteen years ago) link
I dunno. It feels like there is a hidden suggestion that you dig and discover some more elemental truth about yourself as you get older. Which seems kind of scary and reductive from where I am sitting. Like I'd rather transformation rather than discovery, maybe. And just the possibility that art or whatever can actually be transformative rather than merely a placebo for your hormonal agonies is kind of cool. Maybe that's all it is, kinda cool.
― acrobat, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:44 (sixteen years ago) link
woops that isn't a reply to quits last post
― acrobat, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:45 (sixteen years ago) link
i agree with that, which is why i think making a list of art like woody does is lame. because famously art is not transformative for woody -- it was only transformative when he was young. there are a couple of exceptions, like the stupid 'swedish movies, naturally', like wtf, all of them? consecrating the ephemeral as capital-a Art, that's the thing i'm talking about.
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:48 (sixteen years ago) link
consecrating the ephemeral as capital-a Art, that's the thing i'm talking about.
could you explain this a little more. the only woody fiolm i've seen all the way through is Radio Days oddly.
― acrobat, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:52 (sixteen years ago) link
BUNCH OF CULTURAL REFERENCES... ANNOYING NEW YORK REFERENCE... 17-YEAR-OLD CHICK I'M SCHEMING
-- That one guy that hit it and quit it, Sunday, 23 September 2007 20:35 (Yesterday) Link
loool
― and what, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:53 (sixteen years ago) link
I think art vs. people life is a false distinction, because obviously in real life you don't usually have to choose, but I do think it's sadder if it's only art that gives you the reason to live than if it's only people. It's like the classic scenario where your house is burning, and you have to choose whether you save a priceless painting or your cat.
Also, lets not forget that in many cases art is a collective experience: movies, gigs, dancing, etc. Often it's hard and pointless to make the distinction between "art experience" and "human connection".
― Tuomas, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:56 (sixteen years ago) link
The Only Thing Worth Living For ... http://youtube.com/watch?v=qWyBxrZLwtE
― sexyDancer, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:59 (sixteen years ago) link
cats arent people, tuomas
― and what, Monday, 24 September 2007 14:59 (sixteen years ago) link
Basically, I love art and when I feel low and people can't reach me - and obviously as quit it says if you're at the point where you need to count or name things that make life worth living -- not a good sign! - but when I am at that point then I do find that art (by which I mean music and film and architecture) does offer me a way back to feeling human again. Having recently watched my father pass away I have to say I found the ability of some art to do this for me extremely helpful.
― Ned Trifle II, Monday, 24 September 2007 20:35 (sixteen years ago) link
He hated Woody Allen films incidentally. But loved trad jazz. So you see they could have found something in common through art!
― Ned Trifle II, Monday, 24 September 2007 20:37 (sixteen years ago) link
you guys upthread are being ridiculous, the speech clearly lists a bunch of social/personal things along with art and whatnot
― J.D., Tuesday, 25 September 2007 05:08 (sixteen years ago) link
but hey obv life would be better if art and movies and music didn't exist and we all just sat around a big table enjoying each other's company
― J.D., Tuesday, 25 September 2007 05:09 (sixteen years ago) link
tuomas is totally otm; u guys are all weird for trying to separate out "art" from "people" or whatever
― max, Tuesday, 25 September 2007 05:16 (sixteen years ago) link
"whaling, naturally"
LOL
― Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 4 March 2009 21:42 (fifteen years ago) link
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Sunday, September 23, 2007 4:35 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― abebe¿abebe (and what), Wednesday, 4 March 2009 21:45 (fifteen years ago) link
I do still need to read Sentimental Education
― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 4 March 2009 21:45 (fifteen years ago) link
I hate this thread.
― kenan, Wednesday, 4 March 2009 21:53 (fifteen years ago) link
Aimless IS otm, and that's the whole point of the scene. His listing his favorite artwork is just a parlor game, no more reasons to live that Mary's "Academy of the Overrated." It's exactly the same noise. So that's why when he gets to the point in his list where there's an actual person, he has an "OMG!" moment and goes running down the street.
― kenan, Wednesday, 4 March 2009 21:57 (fifteen years ago) link
Only he's STILL wrong, because his impulse is to go try to suck some more life out of someone who has everything ahead of her, instead of taking stock, admitting his soul-crushing vapidness, and swallowing a whole bottle of seconal.
― kenan, Wednesday, 4 March 2009 22:02 (fifteen years ago) link
Kids, I'm so glad you understand the pathos at the heart of Manhattan, but please stop reading it into everyone else partaking of my Madlib, thanks.
― Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 4 March 2009 22:09 (fifteen years ago) link
I suppose I did just say it's a parlor game, didn't I?
― kenan, Wednesday, 4 March 2009 22:18 (fifteen years ago) link
"partaking of my madlib"
― i'm not going to pay a lot for this muffler (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 4 March 2009 23:03 (fifteen years ago) link
lolcats, naturally.
― been HOOS, where yyyou steene!? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 4 March 2009 23:10 (fifteen years ago) link
"Well, all right, why is life worth living? That's a very good question. Well, there are certain things I guess that make it worthwhile. Uh, like what? Okay. Um, for me... oh, I would say... what, Sifl & Ollie, to name one thing... and Bruce Haack, and... "Space Ritual", and... The Velvet Undergrounds's recording of "Sunday Morning"... Taco Bell, naturally... 'The Secret Doctrine' by H.P.Blavatsky... Charlize Theron, James Brown... the record-store scene in "A Clockwork Orange"...the sesame chicken at Chinese Buddha... that weird bump on my head..."
― Adam Bruneau, Thursday, 5 March 2009 17:40 (fifteen years ago) link
http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpgI want ya'll to play this at funerals in the hood.Til all this black on black crime stop.Some say the blind lead the blind.But in the ghetto you never know,When it's gon be yo time.http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg[Sons of Funk, Mo B. Dick, O'dell]Sittin at the ghetto thinkin boutAll my homies passed away (uuunnnggghhh!)Candy painted cadillacs and triple goldThat's how me and my boys rolledHow could it be?Somebody took my boy from meMy best friend's goneAnd I'm so all aloneI really miss my homiesEven though they gone awayI know you in a better placeAnd I hope to see ya soon somedayhttp://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg[Master P]I used to hang with my boy even slang with my boyUsed to bang with my boy, goddam I miss my boyWe started out youngstas in the park throwin birdsIn your hearse, damn it's sad to see my nigga in the dirtThe game got me workin, got me perkin, never jerkinStill blowin dolja fo ya cause I know you up there workinYa little baby's cool and ya baby's mama straightBut today's a sad day to see the t-shirt with ya faceFrom the cradle to the grave, from the streets we used to fallIn the park you liked to ball, put yo name upon the wallIn the projects you's a legend on the street you was a starBut it's sad to see my homeboy ridin in that black carA lotta soldiers done died, a lotta mothers done criedYou done took yo piece of the pie but you was too young to retireWhy soldiers ride for yo name leave it vainSome Gs never change, damn they killed you for some changeSmile for my homie Kevin Miller my boy RandallThe ghetto persons that lost they loved ones to these ghetto scandalshttp://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpgTake a minute to smile for the dead (uuunnnggghhh!)Smile for the dead (RIP 2Pac, Makaveli) All my homies who done made it to the crossroads(Biggie Smalls)http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg[Sons, Mo B. O'dell]How could it be?Somebody took my boy from me(It's like I can't believe you gone)My best friend's gone(Sometimes I feel like I can't go on)And I'm so all alone(Everytime I see something you done leftI really miss my homies(It just remind me, more and more of you, dawg)Even though they gone away(I just keep reminiscin)I know you in a better place(Cause I know you alright)And I hope to see ya soon someday(And I keep smilin, knowin I'm a see you in the crossroads]http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg[Pimp C]We used to grip on the grain and flip them candy toysBut I'd give up all that bullshit if I could get back my boyOff in the club smokin weed til 3, hollerin at the hoesSpendin $4000 on me on gators and clothesWhen I turned to rap, he had to chase the gameNigga told me, "C, leave that dope, cause rappin is yo thang"I ain't gone even lie, some nights I ride and cryWonderin why the real niggas always the ones to dieSo I just smoke my weed and try to clear my mindI wish that I had the power to turn back the hands of timeI wonder if there's a heaven up there for real GsFor all the niggas in the game that be sellin keysI keep my memories, try to keep my head stromgBut baby it's hard to be strong, when yo main homie gonehttp://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg[Sons, Mo B. O'dell]Even though you gone away(Even though you gone, you ain't never gon be forgotten)I know you in a better place(Cause as long as I'm hereYou gon live through me and other TRU playas)I really miss my homiesEven though they gone awayI know you in a better placeAnd I hope to see ya soon somedayhttp://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg[Silkk]I'm just sittin here dazed thinkin bout all the times we hadThinkin the past, some was good and some was badRemember Dante?It was a group of us, just a group of fiveNow three dead, one in jail, it seem right now I'm the only one aliveTo all my soldiers before me, may ya'll rest in peaceWhen He took three, took my soul, just the bodiesHe at the crossroads guide us out to the rest of meWishin I could rewind time like demosMe and you gettin girls, writin down numbers like memosMakin million dollar bets, makin all our money stretch like limosEven though I smile, it's sad, but they say gangstas can't cryBut if I close my eyes and visualize me togetherThen I suddenly wanna smileTo see you laid down when it's yo time, when your time was upYou never seen your child, but he's here to remind usEven though you was wrong, I never could belive that that was trueYou was with me forever, you could check my rest in peace tattoosSee me and C and P forever gon be ridin and thugginRest in peace to all the ones that didn't make itAnd rest in peace to my brotherWe gon miss youhttp://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg(I love these fools)I know you in a better place(Every time I get on my knees)And I hope to see ya soon someday(I pray for you, I'm glad you in a better placeI hope I see ya soon, ain't no more killinAin't no more fights, and ain't no more tears)
― pasantino R.I.P. - pour out a 40 of boss hogg (and what), Thursday, 5 March 2009 17:44 (fifteen years ago) link
Is this our only Manhattan thread? I just saw this film for the first time and want to read what you guys think, because I think I loved it.
― krakow, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 00:45 (fourteen years ago) link
its discussed on some of the other Woody Allen threads (of which there are too many, tbf) - this is widely regarded as one of the peaks of his career, after Annie Hall.
I still think its an amazing movie, but my perspective on it has shifted over the years, I kinda see it differently now then I did as a teenager/college kid
― shake hands with Gongo? (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 00:48 (fourteen years ago) link
(by which I mean on initial viewings I thought the characters were all really engaging/charming/cool but watching it in later years I'm struck by how assholish and narcissistic everyone is, with the exception of Muriel Hemingway)
― shake hands with Gongo? (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 00:50 (fourteen years ago) link
dialogue is still hilarious tho, great script, tons of jokes
Aye, I was laughing very heavily. Thanks btw. This was indeed my first ever Woody Allen movie; that virginity was lost tonight.
I thought it was very funny, wonderfully natural seeming (be that well-observed writing and/or great acting), beautiful to look at, clever and with great music. Yeah, I liked it a lot.
― krakow, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:06 (fourteen years ago) link
Doing this thread's rewrite is a lot harder than I expected though. I'm struggling immensely to fill in the blanks for my own self.
― krakow, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:07 (fourteen years ago) link
I did a genuine serious one, in the end:
"Well, all right, why is life worth living? That's a very good question. Well, there are certain things I guess that make it worthwhile. Uh, like what? Okay. Um, for me... oh, I would say... what, Jack Kerouac, to name one thing... and Richey Edwards, and... the opening build of 'New Paths To Helicon, Pt. 1', and... Nirvana's recording of 'Where Did You Sleep Last Night?'... Japanese psychedelic music, naturally... 'American Psycho' by Bret Easton Ellis... Bill Murray, Keiji Haino... those incredible abstract colours by Rothko... the burgers at Ad Lib... Angela's hair..."
― krakow, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:36 (fourteen years ago) link
This is a great thread. I'll try to answer thoughtfully when this Michael Jackson thing is over.
― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, February 7, 2003 2:19 AM (6 years ago) Bookmark
the world awaits
― what u think i steen for to push a crawfish? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 01:48 (fourteen years ago) link
"...liberal Democrats waking up and starting a progressive pahty..."
― Rage, Resentment, Spleen (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:24 (fourteen years ago) link
this speech is no "we need the eggs"
― Na'vi Girls (Need Love Too) (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:33 (fourteen years ago) link
"and in such small pohtions!"
― Rage, Resentment, Spleen (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 03:34 (fourteen years ago) link
― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 7 February 2003 02:19 (6 years ago) Bookmark
― Ned Trifle II, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 07:53 (fourteen years ago) link