What about thinking everyone is awful, including thinkpiece writers
― fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:38 (two years ago) link
everyone thinks that.
what i am saying is, deep down, there is one of the two you despise more than the other.
― treeship., Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:41 (two years ago) link
chunky monkey is my least favorite Ben & Jerry's ice cream flavor
― sarahell, Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:44 (two years ago) link
Ok fair xp
― fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:44 (two years ago) link
The one I despise least is the one who literally donated a kidney to save someone's life. But did it in an annoying way
― kinder, Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:47 (two years ago) link
― treeship., Sunday, October 10, 2021 3:41 PM (three minutes ago)
idk -- I can see parts of myself in both, and also how I would have dealt with the situation were I in either position. And I would not have made the choices they made.
I remember a few years back, there was this woman who really annoyed me, and I wrote a song with lyrics that were totally references to stuff she wrote on social media. And then I thought, am I okay with people knowing this? How would I respond if I was performing this song and she was there, or someone I liked who was friends with her? And I decided, this is not a battle I want to fight. And I changed the lyrics.
― sarahell, Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:50 (two years ago) link
Obviously it's sort of hilarious how mad it all is. But I'm glad someone got a kidney out of it. We should make it a rule that all literary clusterfucks need to kick off with an organ donation otherwise they don't count.
― kinder, Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:51 (two years ago) link
and next time it should be a penis
― sarahell, Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:52 (two years ago) link
They should make that the literary motto - the penis! Mightier than the sword!
― kinder, Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:53 (two years ago) link
Who would receive the penis
― Gardyloominati (Neanderthal), Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:08 (two years ago) link
I imagine every single writer of fiction has thought about using some real-life incident that would likely hurt the real-life person - and then decided against it, or camouflaged it to the extent no one would ever know. Larson didn't do that, she did the exact opposite: with the warmly/kindly switch, she deliberately identified Dorland to those in the know. Dorland is a complete and utter nightmare - but I'm not sure she did anything as morally egregious as that.
― Zelda Zonk, Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:16 (two years ago) link
i still regret using Budd Dwyer in my novel
― Gardyloominati (Neanderthal), Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:17 (two years ago) link
dorland seems like someone who is clinging to a story about herself--that she is unusually selfless--and even is cultivating a forced sense of naivete, of innocence, that flatters her sense of herself as "too pure for the world". she seems annoying. but larson was sort of sadistic in the way she went about puncturing these cherished illusions of dorland's. there isn't a way to look at her actions and not see the aggression there.
― treeship., Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:22 (two years ago) link
Dorland sued Larson on tenuous grounds, ramped up settlement demands, and pitched the story to media. Not defending Larson, but Dorland's actions are egregious and aggressive.
― bulb after bulb, Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:31 (two years ago) link
ongoing human interactions between the initial pain in the arse and their victims lenf themselves to such forensic judgement but i must admit that i will always hold pen to the ready to draw up the minority opinion that suggests some people would drive you fuckin demented, for all that the image people will remember is basil fawlty beating up a car with a branch and not the car being a genuine pain in his hole
― fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:32 (two years ago) link
Id a harmless co worker reduce me to tears on a tesco sandwich aisle after he attached himself to me the six months previous and followed me everywhere talking incessantly about his crypto wallet and giving bad advice unasked, the final straw was him picking up the crisps and drink to make the meal deal for the sandwich i had selected, after he silently followed me from my desk out the door and around the corner from the office to do so
Now im sure i looked the worse party in the instant but murder was in range at the time as a result of repeated breaches of the nuisance code and crimes of passion are crimes of the moment, not to be fairly judged so clinically thereafter treesh
― fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:37 (two years ago) link
giving bad advice unaskedB-b-but I thought you didn’t mind unsolicited advice?
― Spiral Scratchiti (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:42 (two years ago) link
Sorry
literally donated a kidney to save someone's life
― ✖, Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:43 (two years ago) link
figuratively donated a kidney
― Gardyloominati (Neanderthal), Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:44 (two years ago) link
am referring to the motive not the action
― ✖, Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:45 (two years ago) link
― bulb after bulb, Sunday, October 10, 2021 7:31 PM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
this is a good point
― treeship., Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:47 (two years ago) link
xpost Does the motive matter if the outcome is good?
― Zelda Zonk, Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:48 (two years ago) link
yeah imo
― ✖, Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:49 (two years ago) link
like at least a little if we're gonna spend a week psychoanalyzing this person
― ✖, Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:50 (two years ago) link
Lily, the organlegger’s daughter, was literally bereft of her kidney.
― Spiral Scratchiti (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:50 (two years ago) link
the point of larson's story was to reveal the narcissism that lay behind the action. this is a kind of insight that dorland probably isn't ready for, tbh, given what we know about her. that is part of why the story seemed so aggressive.
― treeship., Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:52 (two years ago) link
but the quick response from dorland, the lawsuit and the times article, show that larson was right about her.
― treeship., Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:55 (two years ago) link
wait someone just messaged me this. seems larson struck first with the lawsuit not dorland. dorland says she wanted to quietly settle her copyright claim about her email.
You, an intellectual: Dorland's decision to pitch a story about herself to the NYT was one of the biggest self-owns ever. Me, casually: Did you see that Larson's decision to strike first with a lawsuit is the reason her group chats became public? https://t.co/P1MogzSkqy pic.twitter.com/plw7ENXGuf— Spooky N. Gore (@moorehn) October 7, 2021
― treeship., Sunday, 10 October 2021 23:58 (two years ago) link
― Zelda Zonk, Sunday, October 10, 2021 7:48 PM bookmarkflaglink
ultimately, no. I mean, that speaks zero to the donating person's character, but in the end, the kidney went to someone who was needed, so net positive.
― Gardyloominati (Neanderthal), Monday, 11 October 2021 00:05 (two years ago) link
i recommend reading that thread.
― treeship., Monday, 11 October 2021 00:06 (two years ago) link
that speaks zero to the donating person's character
isn't her and larsen's characters the subject of the story and this discussion?
― ✖, Monday, 11 October 2021 00:08 (two years ago) link
This chat is maybe the saddest shot ever written:
This conversation from the transcripts (sent to me) between Larson and a (white woman) member of Grub Street is so concerning. The member promises Larson that if Dorland speaks up about the plagiarism they'll all exclude her, which has career implications. pic.twitter.com/qn1d3BVOG4— Spooky N. Gore (@moorehn) October 8, 2021
― St. Twel'mo, or the Cuneiform Cyclopedist of Chattanooga (President Keyes), Monday, 11 October 2021 00:11 (two years ago) link
i wonder what it is about dawn that is so offensive to this group. i can see that she is self-centered but loads of people are.
― treeship., Monday, 11 October 2021 00:21 (two years ago) link
this thread has sent me down the rabbit hole of twitter accounts that are currently obsessed with dissecting this....don't want to get into any of these true crime podcasts............
― ✖, Monday, 11 October 2021 01:12 (two years ago) link
interesting that the 1 city 1 story thing seems to have a history of going to members of the clique, and also interesting that they really proudly call themselves "chunky monkeys" every chance they get jfc
― ✖, Monday, 11 October 2021 01:13 (two years ago) link
― treeship., Sunday, October 10, 2021 8:21 PM (fifty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
they are bullies and she is an obvious target for bullying
― call all destroyer, Monday, 11 October 2021 01:30 (two years ago) link
I'm a bit invested in this as something vaguely similar happened to me years ago. I was part of a social group all in our 20s, doing the cliched thing of living in Paris trying to be writers, fashion designers or whatever, but actually teaching English as a foreign language to make ends meet. One of the group wrote a novel based on our Paris hi-jinks. I was a minor character in it, and it related an incident that was personal and painted me in a not terribly favourable light. Before publication, the author circulated the MS to everyone involved - I asked for the incident, which only took up a page or so, to be cut, and she complied. If she hadn't, I don't think I would have done any Dorland-style stuff, but I would have been very hurt and angry and would have never spoken to her again. It's very, very weird seeing yourself turn up as an unflattering fictional character.
― Zelda Zonk, Monday, 11 October 2021 01:36 (two years ago) link
I'm not going to waste one of my free NYT articles on this, but if the story starts with someone upset at the lack of acknowledgment of their selflessness in donating a kidney, that is a person who should donate a second kidney ASAP.
― Hannibal Lecture (PBKR), Monday, 11 October 2021 02:00 (two years ago) link
Based on her reaction to not being feted for a kidney donation that had nothing to do with any other person involved in this story (or writer's group... or anyone but the kidney's new owner and their family), I can see quite easily why she'd be strongly disliked.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Monday, 11 October 2021 02:06 (two years ago) link
The proper response is to just make that person dead to you and your social circle, though, rather than continuing to interact in any way.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Monday, 11 October 2021 02:07 (two years ago) link
The New Yorker's review of the short story in question: https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-story-at-the-center-of-the-bad-art-friend-saga
Tldr: "the prose is bad"
― Zelda Zonk, Monday, 11 October 2021 02:17 (two years ago) link
Thank you for your submission. We are sorry to inform you that your short story "The Donor" does not meet the needs of The New Yorker at this time. Or at any other time until hell freezes over.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Monday, 11 October 2021 02:23 (two years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OrxQ5cKaOQ
― Spiral Scratchiti (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 11 October 2021 02:27 (two years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HN0rqVJT4U
― Spiral Scratchiti (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 11 October 2021 02:29 (two years ago) link
tl;dr: Larson engages in a protracted fantasy where Rose/Dawn makes racist comments to her recipient and starts crying and blurts out "you take care of [the kidney]"
This sounds like a sociopath is having trouble engaging with an act of empathy and is finding ways to fantasize a scenario where the donor is herself sociopathic
― kermit the grouch (flamboyant goon tie included), Monday, 11 October 2021 03:04 (two years ago) link
Sonya: Dude, I could write pages and pages more about Dawn. Or at least about this particular narcissistic dynamic, especially as it relates to race. The woman is a goldmine!!!
Allison: She really is. I live in fear of falling on her side of the line of the *white woman engages with race* fence.
Sonya: That will never ever happen to you, because you are actually self-aware!!!
Allison: I hope that is true but I will remain on my guard.
Looooooooool
― St. Twel'mo, or the Cuneiform Cyclopedist of Chattanooga (President Keyes), Monday, 11 October 2021 03:14 (two years ago) link
The Heidi Moore thread that treeship linked seems like it settles this pretty definitely in favour of Dorland - but the account is now locked, which seems grim.
― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 11 October 2021 07:18 (two years ago) link
the way larson clings to the racial dynamics to maintain her own sense of superiority is fascinating to me
― mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Monday, 11 October 2021 13:03 (two years ago) link
In fact, “The Kindest” falls short in precisely the ways the saga laid out in the Times Magazine piece might lead us to expect: it makes a cartoon of the donor character, and it over-relies on identity-inflected hand-waving. Also, the prose is bad.
yeeeee
― mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Monday, 11 October 2021 13:12 (two years ago) link