not saying this is a good point by the way, just that it is a point. in fact, for the cause of prison reform, highlighting more sympathetic prisoners would probably be wiser.
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:38 (three years ago) link
tapping the sign till my fingers bleedIs this the hill you want to die on? Does anyone still care about the rest of the poets in the issue they published the paedophile?
― wangdalf the blight (gyac), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:39 (three years ago) link
Fwiw I think he should be allowed to self-publish. But fuck giving him access to a preeminent venue.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:41 (three years ago) link
As a bunch of people on twitter pointed out, there are plenty of marginalised voices in the prison population who could use that space. This is basically maintaining establishment structures while pretending to be socially conscious. Fuck this.
― emil.y, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:42 (three years ago) link
The editorial principle for this issue was to widen access to publication for writers inside prison & to expand access to poetry, bearing in mind biases against & barriers for incarcerated people. As such, the guest editors didn't have knowledge of contributors' backgrounds. 3/4— POETRY magazine (@poetrymagazine) February 2, 2021
― ... (Eazy), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:43 (three years ago) link
― treeship., Tuesday, February 2, 2021 11:38 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
the aporia in prison abolition discourse and is that lots of the men in prison are the type of violent men that virtually everyone is happy sticking in a cell and never hearing from again.
― Dusty Benelux (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:46 (three years ago) link
i mean, yeah
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:46 (three years ago) link
If Poetry magazine is not platforming poems that endorse, excuse or exonerate this prof's crimes, and they fully disclose his identity and reason for being imprisoned, then they have done as much as is necessary and responsible, imo.
― Compromise isn't a principle, it's a method (Aimless), Tuesday, February 2, 2021 1:20 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
goddamn man this is a fucked up post
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:47 (three years ago) link
The question here isn't about prison reform or abolition, it's about giving an abusive sexual predator and paedophile space in your poetry magazine. How about don't do that?
― emil.y, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:49 (three years ago) link
xps to Eazy all that is negated by the tweet immediately before it
People in prison have been sentenced & are serving/have served those sentences; it is not our role to further judge or punish them as a result of their criminal convictions. As editors, our role is to read poems & facilitate conversations around contemporary poetry. 2/4— POETRY magazine (@poetrymagazine) February 2, 2021
― wangdalf the blight (gyac), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:52 (three years ago) link
― emil.y, Tuesday, February 2, 2021 1:49 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
at least one thing i saw was that he also USED poetry as a way to lure people, esp his position, so even his poetry can't be viewed as "neutral" imo
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:53 (three years ago) link
Fwiw, the editors did not have access to the rap sheets of the people published in the issue, though I'm not sure about what transpired between the point when poems were chosen and the point when it was decided to publish.
Poet (and full disclosure, press-mate) Diana Hamilton has an interesting thread here where the guy's ties to university, his heinous actions, and his poetry come together.
"Why is it unsurprising that a magazine, judging the work of formerly incarcerated writers purely on 'aesthetic grounds', winds up choosing a formerly tenured white academic?" is to me a better question for poets than "why didn't the guest editors google rap sheets?"— diana / (@dhami) February 2, 2021
― The return of our beloved potatoes (the table is the table), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:53 (three years ago) link
I can see that my perspective on this has zero chance of being accepted by those who vehemently reject it out of hand. As such it would be pointless for me to continue, since the possibility of persuasion is out of the running.
― Compromise isn't a principle, it's a method (Aimless), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:55 (three years ago) link
SERIOUSLY?
― wangdalf the blight (gyac), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:56 (three years ago) link
Sure, because why stick around when you can't convince someone else, instead of, oh I don't know, try to be emphatic and understand why everyone's up in arms about your "perspective"?
xp
― A Scampo Darkly (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:56 (three years ago) link
I'm also on team prison abolition, but think that the piece shouldn't have been published.
One thing that's important to at least note is that there are *many* writers and poets who have been widely published and anthologized who continue to be taught and given accolades...who also have legit claims of harm against them. Many are dead. That doesn't make it a good thing, obviously, but Cavafy, Ginsberg, Hakim Bey, Whitman, Anne Sexton...
― The return of our beloved potatoes (the table is the table), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:57 (three years ago) link
whitman??
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:59 (three years ago) link
The best way to publish these blind-selected poems might be anonymously -- if they want the poems to transcend the crimes of the prisoners.
― ... (Eazy), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 19:59 (three years ago) link
because why stick around when you can't convince someone else
who said I wouldn't stick around? I'm here. I'll read. I just won't try to convince anyone to my current viewpoint. If I see good reasons presented why I'm wrong, I'll be persuaded. People are very reactive itt rn and I'm going to step aside from inviting that on my head.
― Compromise isn't a principle, it's a method (Aimless), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:00 (three years ago) link
so, i'm seeing on wikipedia that some of whitman's male lovers were younger than i remember. at that time, many straight authors had teenage brides, including poe--i wouldn't want to hold whitman to a harsher standard than that. and he is sort of essential to understanding the course of american poetry...
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:02 (three years ago) link
thanks so much aimless for your endless wisdom and patience
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:03 (three years ago) link
^ I'm having a hard time deciding how to fit that into context.
― Compromise isn't a principle, it's a method (Aimless), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:05 (three years ago) link
"Why is it unsurprising that a magazine, judging the work of formerly incarcerated writers purely on 'aesthetic grounds', winds up choosing a formerly tenured white academic?" is to me a better question for poets than "why didn't the guest editors google rap sheets?"
*sigh* ... I mean, it definitely speaks to ... a lot of things, actually ... there's the obvious "whose aesthetics?" issue, and then there's the inequity of the carceral state. Like the bar for educated white men to be imprisoned is much higher than for black men, especially those from low income families.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:12 (three years ago) link
I think it gets at the fact that *this guy is not a marginalized voice*. He never has been, and never will be.
While I reject jim in vancouver's idea that many of the men in prison are the sorts we'd like to see locked up forever, I also think that the power dynamics of Nesset's original crime continue to come into play— he has power and privilege over others, and continues to use it to his advantage. It's sick, fucked-up shit.
― The return of our beloved potatoes (the table is the table), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:17 (three years ago) link
it just seems like any conversation where you are drawing an arbitrary line between "redeemable and cancelled" is going to get ugly. Like, how many murders for hire = child rape? What about hate crimes compared to paedo stuff? ...
― sarahell, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:20 (three years ago) link
a lot of people do sidestep this dilemma by imagining that prisons are mostly filled with non-violent drug offenders or the wrongly accused. the truth is that really dismantling mass incarceration means rehabilitating some violent prisoners too.
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:22 (three years ago) link
prisons are mostly filled with such people, and I am sure that Poetry Magazine could have had a great issue comprised solely of poetry by non-violent drug offenders.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:25 (three years ago) link
it's a lot -- a scandalous amount -- but it's not most. but the thing is, violent offenders also have rights and most could be successfully rehabilitated into society. i'm saying that prison reform at some point would need to look beyond just the offenders that most people would consider sympathetic if it is to truly overcome the injustice in the system.
http://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/p85lgIXa5_o9JqFRC9dlgAWSeIg=/0x0:1200x652/1320x0/filters:focal(0x0:1200x652):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3694756/download__3_.0.png
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:30 (three years ago) link
violent offenders also have rights and most could be successfully rehabilitated into society. i'm saying that prison reform at some point would need to look beyond just the offenders that most people would consider sympathetic if it is to truly overcome the injustice in the system.
don't disagree but also don't conflate that with "they deserve a chance to be published in a leading poetry magazine"
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:31 (three years ago) link
i agree. in my life, i've known one person who committed murder. i would actually be enraged, i think, if he had a poem published. but i also know people who were closer to his victim than i was who would have a different perspective on this.
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:35 (three years ago) link
The right to publish works of literature does not mean you are entitled to an institutional seal of approval.
This isn't quite the same thing because it exceeds the realm of art, but Trump isn't entitled to a Twitter account either.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:35 (three years ago) link
^^^^^^^^^^^
― emil.y, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:40 (three years ago) link
That’s probably the stance of every other literary magazine, and the editorial decision for this single issue can make it an explicit conversation.
― ... (Eazy), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:41 (three years ago) link
There are other ways of impelling this conversation.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:42 (three years ago) link
turns out some people locked up in the carceral state have "victims"
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:43 (three years ago) link
why victims in quotes?
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:44 (three years ago) link
it's interesting in the context that it seems like almost every other new TV series is about serial killers or abusive cult leaders ... like, there is a cultural interest in people who do evil things. I'm having trouble reconciling that with some of this discussion
― sarahell, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:45 (three years ago) link
― ... (Eazy)
I'm just repeating myself, because my response to that is: there are plenty of marginalised voices in the prison population who could use that space. This is basically maintaining establishment structures while pretending to be socially conscious. Fuck this.
― emil.y, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:48 (three years ago) link
xpost
yeah i find it kind of weird, like i've def watched some of it and most serial killers seem like really boring and dumb people to me, like they don't have anything outside of their obsession i don't find it that interesting like some ppl do...but the podcast numbers don't lie i guess
― emil.y, Tuesday, February 2, 2021 2:48 PM (eight seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink
OTM thank u
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:49 (three years ago) link
xp i agree sarahell. i'm also thinking about marilyn manson. his allure was "darkness" and violence against women was a common motif in his work. people justified it because it was "just art"... but now we learn that he really was an abusive and sadistic person with many victims...
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:49 (three years ago) link
and so much of the whole issue of the carceral state and punishment has that moral/religious aspect in re redemption and society's obligations to its members.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:49 (three years ago) link
It also turns out that many people locked in the carceral state are victims who have victims. That doesn't excuse their actions, but if we did a better job of taking care of people as a society, we might not be in the place we're in.
(To be clear, I don't believe this guy is a victim.
I'm talking about the demonstrable fact that many who are subjected to ACEs and other violences as children and young adults are more likely to engage in behaviors that are detrimental to society at large— while they are not blameless, there was a distinct shift away from rehabilitation and community mental health programs in the 70s and 80s, and the rise in the prison population really begins around that time).
― The return of our beloved potatoes (the table is the table), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:50 (three years ago) link
ACEs= Adverse Childhood Events, btw
there is a cultural interest in people who do evil things.
Yep, and I have a deep-seated interest in it too. Hell, the curious part of me *wants* to read his poetry so I can see what else happens in the mind of such an awful person. But what overrides that is that I don't want to reward this fucko in any way.
― emil.y, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:51 (three years ago) link
re marilyn manson -- I think when I noted that he was in a relationship with a 19 year-old, I was pretty certain that there was abuse involved. ...
― sarahell, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:51 (three years ago) link
oh me too. but the reality was way worse than what i imagined
― treeship., Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:54 (three years ago) link
though the shift to rehab + mental health was also recent ... like I feel that in the U.S. a humane approach to "criminality" was not the norm, though way back in the day, we used to just "exile" people and run them out of town, back when there was an out of town and a frontier. The 80s and 90s and mandatory sentencing laws were the big shift as I see it, historically.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 20:57 (three years ago) link
absolutely— the 50s into the 70s were a time when community childcare, mental health, and rehabilitation facilities actually received some modicum of funding and support. when California increased mandatory minimums, re-classed many non-violent offenses as felonies, and put hundreds of new laws onto the books from 82-92, it led the rest of the country to do so as well. the resultant boom in prison populations was planned, in many ways, by a state that was struggling to find something to do with surplus labor.
― The return of our beloved potatoes (the table is the table), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 21:09 (three years ago) link
yeah ... I remember that period in state history. Dark times. It was the real heyday of the conservative sponsored ballot measures which came out of Prop 13/Howard Jarvis taxpayers assoc. which resulted in reduced funding to cities and counties for education and other social services. As in, these weren't elected officials deciding this, these were things the people voted to do. A lot of it had to do with crimes against children (e.g. the Polly Klaas case). (yes, they were white children) And the media (mostly TV) really pushed the issue into the spotlight and created drama around it. So, that history, for me, is something that gives issues like this Poetry Magazine one, awkward overtones and associations.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 21:19 (three years ago) link
Oh yeah, and speaking of rehabilitation and prisons, that was the same era where "we" (voters of CA) recalled state judges who refused to sentence people to death. The anti-Rose Bird campaign
― sarahell, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 21:21 (three years ago) link