Next batch of Pixar films after the Monsters Inc. prequel

I think the message was a little more nuanced than that, or maybe it's a separate message - that passions don't define us. Music makes Joe want to live but doesn't have to be the only thing he lives for. That message resonated with me, my 20s were a lot about figuring that out. It's unusual to see it in an ostensible kids' movie but still a good message to take

To your point about the zone, didn't they say something about how one can lose themselves in it, it's not always a good thing? I see Joe's moments in the zone as that: he's not appreciating what he's doing while he's there

yup. it's those people who get too obsessed with the zone (and other thoughts) that end up as lost souls

Interesting to hear people's varied rankings on the recent (non-sequel) Pixars. I felt the sense that the run from Ratatouille/Wall-E/Up was a certain peak, but less consensus on everything after, though all generally very good. Personally, I thought Soul expanded magnificently upon the themes of Inside Out, and I thought Coco was very good, and Onward was fairly boilerplate for PIxar.

I liked this but it's not in my pinar top tier. The animation is next level and I think I liked the theme but that was my problem with it, the theme and message felt a bit muddled to me, lost within too much concept

*Pixar top tier obv

yes, I think all the originals from Ratatouille on have been exceptional with two exceptions: good dinosaur and onward. The sequels are all fine, some better than others, but don't like any of them as much as the originals from this time period (except for maybe toy story 3)

Brave is unmemorable.

The first half of Brave is impeccably animated, and she's a great character, but then iirc it falls back on the ol' someone-turns-into-an-animal chestnut which I didn't find particularly compelling.

Soul looks and sounds great, but I've never liked these movies where the afterlife is dictated by absurdly complicated rules that, for some reason, everyone but the hero has no trouble accepting or understanding. The best versions of these movies are the simplest: A Matter of Life and Death, Defending Your Life. Soul is closer in, er, spirit to Made in Heaven or Heart and Souls.

I respect that take. I think deep down I dream if there is an afterlife with multiple paths, it's going to be plagued with as much bureaucratic nonsense as our Earthly lives.

I enjoyed Soul but wow did they ever lean into the “never show a Black protagonist as a person” trope Disney is famous for

Also, the movie spent so much of its running time making the argument “teaching is for chumps” that the “actually teaching means as much to me as performing” resolution did not feel earned and the end result came across like dude wanted to go back to his life expressly to be content with staring at a wall

both valid points

i don't feel like the movie was arguing that teaching is for chumps

Yeah, maybe I need to watch it again, but I didn't catch that thread at all. DJP's first point 100% otm though.

joe believes that, the movie doesn't agree with him

i'm glad the film also resists the easy path of "wait teaching is good and my actual purpose" xp

yeah agree there

The message was fairly muddled. It seemed like a counter to grass-is-always-greener mentalities. Not exactly saying don't chase your dreams, but perhaps don't let your dreams and ambitions turn into dissatisfaction and alienation from all the good things in your life.

Also, achieving that one elusive goal will not instantly transform your life and your fundamental being.

Also, achieving that one elusive goal will not instantly transform your life and your fundamental being.

moodles i think you summarized the themes of the movie very well, so ... was it truly muddled?????

moodled

In some way it's the opposite of the Randian message of "The Incredibles." Instead of "I am special and unique and that makes me better than others," it's a gentler (and imo more reasonable) "not everyone has to be special and unique and better than others to make life worth living."

moodles so otm

Muddled because it has to invent a whole elaborate and confusing cosmology and various wacky scenarios to get him to that point, and even then it's not really clear why.

Let me rephrase:

The movie spent so much time painting and reinforcing Joe's disillusionment with his life that his final acceptance rang hollow and came across more like "just kidding, we meant THIS all along" rather than feeling like an actual arc of growth or realization, particularly since he never saw 22's connection with his student (whom he dismissed with "oh she always does that" when 22 tried to describe the interaction), he mostly glossed over 22's growing enchantment with life on Earth, ignored all the auditors when they congratulated him on getting 22 to have a spark, mostly ignored 22's anguish at giving up their pass to be born, and seemingly had no idea, purpose, or drive left after not feeling a sea change in the wake of getting his dream gig until an old White dude spinning a sign told him "but hey, you're alive"

The more I think about this movie, the more I hate it actually.

hm ok! what felt forced and hollow to you went unnoticed by me

imo joe is inadvertently being a teacher to 22 throughout the movie but ends up learning more from 22 which is yet another stray theme they packed in

Muddled because it has to invent a whole elaborate and confusing cosmology and various wacky scenarios to get him to that point, and even then it's not really clear why.

I think this is what I meant by "loved the human parts, iffy on the rest"

i do think the afterlife bureaucracy doesn't really make a ton of sense but... this is also fine for me, it's just a theoretical construct lol (which the movie's self-consciousness of i found charming but others may find cheap, and i'd get that)

like i feel like in any version of this scenario there'd be a ton of 22s, they wouldn't be a special case

The afterlife bureaucracy was the best part of the movie, mostly because it wasn't the part where they had Tina Fey playing a Black man.

Admittedly, I would likely feel differently about a lot of this movie had we not just lived through 2020 and an armed insurrection at the Capitol largely predicated on White people's fear of being supplanted by non-White people

i def agree that was a choice that could've been avoided xp

and it's not a point i'd disagree with anyone's dislike of this movie on

A stronger movie would have included some discrimination and forced a conversation between Joe and 22 where 22 incredulously asked why Joe was working so hard to get back to Earth in the face of all of this and Joe argues that experiencing the bad parts of life are worth it for how wonderful the good parts are and then both that choice would have been defensible AND the entire movie wouldn't have come across to me like a fable that people shouldn't try to explore and use their talents, particularly Black people.

afterlife bureaucracy

It's kind of interesting that this is such a reoccurring concept in movies. Defending Your Life, Beetlejuice, Matter of Life and Death, Here Comes Mr Jordan, Kore-eda's After Life ... I know there are plenty of more.

Dan, i dunno if you stuck around for the credits, but here's the star heavy and occasionally confusing council of "cultural music and faith based" advisors they worked with to presumably think about some of your concerns:
https://pixar.fandom.com/wiki/Soul_Credits#Cultural.2C_Music_.26_Faith_Based_Advisors

Its wonderful to me to see a movie that isn't like, uh, The Wrestler or Whiplash or A Star is Born or all these other terrible toxic artist myths, and is more realistic but still positive about being an artist. (Though I DO still like The Wrestler and Black Swan.)

Admittedly, I would likely feel differently about a lot of this movie had we not just lived through 2020 and an armed insurrection at the Capitol largely predicated on White people's fear of being supplanted by non-White people

moodles i think you summarized the themes of the movie very well, so ... was it truly muddled?????

― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, January 13, 2021 11:06 AM (one hour ago)

In some way it's the opposite of the Randian message of "The Incredibles." Instead of "I am special and unique and that makes me better than others," it's a gentler (and imo more reasonable) "not everyone has to be special and unique and better than others to make life worth living."

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, January 13, 2021 11:09 AM (one hour ago)

some interesting thoughts about why Soul (and Coco, which I didn't know!) did well in China
https://musingsonmouse.substack.com/p/movie-equations-souls-win-in-china

another reason?

Soul was one of the most unexpectedly Buddhist films I'd seen in a long time.

― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Saturday, December 26, 2020 11:15 PM (three weeks ago)

Coco is very Mexican (I mentioned on here it's probably the most Mexican movie I've ever seen) but the way it treats the afterlife in a very non-JudeoChristian manner could be another reason why Coco resonated more in China perhaps.

This has been on Netflix for a while and we've put off watching it for reasons that now seem lame... but this was fantastic. Hands down the most unabashedly (capital M) Mexican film I've ever seen from Hollywood. Seems like this stands up to rewatching so we will watch it next time in Spanish (also on Netflix!) Def. echoes of Spirited Away & Mulan (note: Coco is 100000x better than Mulan, which desperately needs a reboot/reimagining). Loved the allegory of the border (replete with bureaucratic red-tape) between the living & the dead as well as the border between memory-conditional legacy/impermanence.

― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Monday, September 30, 2019 11:08 AM (one year ago)

you can discover if you are correct by clicking the link!

(note: Coco is 100000x better than Mulan, which desperately needs a reboot/reimagining)

So, uh, how'd you think this one came out? (note: I only saw about the last ten minutes when my son watched it last month, thought what I saw was slightly better than what I'd expected, but not enough to make me want to start it over)

@forks: nothing in the article addressed any culture considerations.

whoops one brief aside:

focuses on cherishing family members, both alive and those who have passed.

What changed in-between the first and second week for Coco to soar that much? Word of mouth, good reviews on Chinese sites like Douban Movie, and a cultural connection to the film helped spur it into Pixar’s most successful title ever in China, and Disney’s second most successful animated film behind Zootopia ($236.1 million). The Qingming Festival is one of the most celebrated in China, and focuses on cherishing family members, both alive and those who have passed. Coco’s message, about that exact thing, likely resonated well with Chinese filmgoers, Stanley Rosen, a political science professor at USC’s US-China Institute, told The Wrap in 2017.

China may be thousands of miles away from Mexico, but the film’s embrace of Mexico’s Dia de Muertos and honoring the dead have resonated with Chinese audiences who have similar traditions, said Stanley Rosen, a political science professor at USC’s US-China Institute.

One of China’s biggest holidays is the Qingming (which roughly translates as “tomb-sweeping”) Festival. The Chinese mark it by celebrating family both living and dead: Loved ones travel together to graves to pray and offer food and drink.

“There have been films in the past that Chinese audiences have embraced for their message about family,” said Rosen. “What we’re seeing with ‘Coco’ is similar to what we saw with ‘Dangal,’ which was about the first women wrestlers to compete for India and their father who trained them. That film also had a strong message about putting family first and became a huge hit in China.”

watched this without really knowing what to expect beyond thinking it was going to be something about about jazz and the power of music starring jamie foxx. was definitely not prepared for it to be mostly about the complicated rules of new age afterlife with the black character on the poster voiced by tina fey and jamie foxx voicing a wacky cat sidekick, with music by beloved jazz duo trent reznor and atticus ross

DJP heavily otm here, tbh im kind of shocked this movie isnt getting dragged like crazy for its tone deaf racial stuff (unless it is?)

Here's one review that talks about the issues with the movie:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/soul-feels-like-pixars-first-black-movie-made-with-whit-1845956107

Also here:

https://colorwebmag.com/2020/12/28/mo-reviews-soul-disney-pixar/