2008 Primaries Thread

Tim Russert sez that only 45,000 votes between Obama and HRC.

I thought "the U.S." was interested in seeing Pakistan not disintegrate, not promoting democratic institutions

seems assbackwards to me. the latter is by far more important than the former. who cares about these arbitrary colonialist border designations.

x-post

I wonder how many dollars difference between Obama and HRC now?

In other news, some of HRC's senior staff volunteered to work without pay this month.

pakistan is approaching twice the size of iraq, has six times as many people, a more forbidding terrain and a nuclear weapon. a bombing campaign isn't going to do anything but piss even more muslims off. a ground campaign without the express and overwhelming support of the pakistani government, army and people is both absurd and impossible, leaving alone the current state of the us military.

i mean sure, keep your options on the table, but get a fucking grip on what they actually are.

You are kidding, right? We give money to Musharraf to keep the country together so the bombs stay right in our corner.

Also invading countries and massacring their people on flimsy security pretexts is, like, wrong and shit.

fwiw Clinton is probably bears as much responsibility as any other president for convincing Americans that it's ok to sort of *spot bomb* at will.

I thought I made it fairly clear I'm not advocating an invasion or massacre.

This thread is now longer than the one that spawned it.

And thus, if I'm not mistaken, the longest thread in ILX history.

Pretty sure top three are:

2008 Primaries Thread: 7253+
Your 2008 Presidential Candidate Speculation Thread: 7238
try glasgow more: 6800+

I think a Chicago thread from a couple years ago might be 4th. Dave Matthews only has about 2500.

We give money to Musharraf to keep the country together so the bombs stay right in our corner.

uh, I'm pretty sure the nukes aren't being stashed in the non-federally governed northwest provinces

x-post

http://www.willisms.com/archives/shawn.jpg

the NWFP /= Pakistan

fwiw Clinton is probably bears as much responsibility as any other president for convincing Americans that it's ok to sort of *spot bomb* at will.

This can't be said often enough.

Ok, I thought when you said "keep all options on the table" you meant that we should consider bombing and/or invading Pakistan in order to kill bin Laden.

If the NW secedes, Kashmir and other provinces could follow. What military dictator worth his stashed military uniform would let that happen?

I was going to suggest a while back that we have separate threads for liveblogging the debates but I guess it's a bit late for that now

Kashmir's not seceding from anywhere and is kind of a separate issue (uh, India claims it too y'know). It doesn't even border the NW provinces nor does it have a similar autonomy so what are you talking about...?

we should consider bombing and/or invading Pakistan in order to kill bin Laden.

I don't know where we would bomb in Pakistan to get Bin Laden, I don't think he hangs out in Rawalpindi knowhutimean. A full-scale invasion is both impossible and inadvisable for all kinds of reasons. I was referring - as I assume Obama was - to targeted attacks against Al Qaeda, presumably in the NW.

fwiw Clinton is probably bears as much responsibility as any other president for convincing Americans that it's ok to sort of *spot bomb* at will.

and yes thirded absolutely. hey lets bomb Afghanistan btw did you hear I'm guilty of perjury?

I'm talking about Pakistan being a very fragile nation-state with a lot of people who want to break it up. The U.S. government has decided that the breakup of Pakistan is not in its interests, and actions that show Musharraf's weakness are likely to embolden any of the various separatist movements in the country. Anyway, I don't think this minutiae is worth debating since we probably don't disagree in any substantial way, I just thought it was weird to think that the U.S. would be ok with any level of dissolution of the nation of Pakistan.

i just spoke to my mom -- lower middle class conservative Catholic white woman, a real Dobson voter -- and she expressed dissatisfaction with all of the candidates in the republican field. what surprised me, though, was that she swore to vote for Obama in the democratic primary because she hates Hillary just that much. I hardly think she represents any trend, but I had never really thought of that electoral possibility.

Obama as fuck-the-world candidate

he's the black eminem

she swore to vote for Obama in the democratic primary because she hates Hillary just that much. I hardly think she represents any trend, but I had never really thought of that electoral possibility.

are you kidding? I thought people had been discussing that factor for months

Ha- that's exactly what my Dad did too. He's registered independent, but has voted for Bush in the past couple of Presidential elections (I guess you could characterize him primarily as an "evangelical values" voter). This time around he decided to vote in the Democratic primary for Obama - even though he doesn't think Obama is really experienced enough - just to stop Hillary. (He also doesn't like any of the GOP front-runners, though he was tempted to vote for Ron Paul.)

I wonder how much of Obama's vaunted appeal to independents is really fueled by Hillary-hatred. If it is, then it would be ironic if he won the nomination, but then saw his independent appeal dry up once Hillary is out of the picture.

I probably mentioned this on the other thread, but I'm pretty certain my mom (middle-middle class, pro-lifer, Republican-leaning except for on environmental issues) would vote for O.

over any of the Repubs

btw, I called Republican divide/McCain win back in mid-December.

See, I don't think my Dad would vote for Obama in the general - his primary vote was purely calculated to derail the Hillary train.

xpost

My dad voted for Bush twice, now is totally into Obama. I think it's a mixture of Clinton hatred and shitty wars. I think he would go O in the GE. He also liked Kucinich, but I think that's because he's from Cleveland.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that my dad could go for Obama in the general - I just see it as unlikely. However, unlikely is still better than not in a million years - which is the chance he'd vote for Clinton.

your dad voted for Bush twice but also likes Kucinich? I think your dad represents the "batshit crazy" voting block

(no disrespect meant to your dad)

Gavin's dad agrees with stuff that people say

paulite accosted me on campus today and was totally unprepared for the double-barrel.

so much fun.

Paulites left Ron Paul signs all over the men's restroom so I put them in the urinals

haha, Mark Shields calls MD/DC/VA the "Crab Cake Primary"

the double-barrel?

i got roped into a 2 am "why you should support ron paul" aim convo by a friend the other night

"Support the only candidate for freedom, the only candidate for peace!"

"No, thanks."

"Why won't you support Dr. Paul?"

"uh cause he has a 19th century economic sensibility and a ridiculous naivete about foreign policy? not to mention he put his name on a newsletter that spewed racist editorials. at worst he's a disingenuous racist, at best he's a terrible delegator who i don't want with his finger on the button."

*cue guy stuttering, moving on to girl behind me*

two of my four bandmates voted for ron paul WTF?!

"Support the only candidate for freedom, the only candidate for peace!"

"No, thanks."

"Why won't you support Dr. Paul?"

"uh cause he has a 19th century economic sensibility and a ridiculous naivete about foreign policy? not to mention he put his name on a newsletter that spewed racist editorials. at worst he's a disingenuous racist, at best he's a terrible delegator who i don't want with his finger on the button."

"Sir, we reserve the right to refuse voting for any candidate. My manager, my bartender and myself will not tolerate your archaic candidate on our ballot. We have not and will not charge you with idiocy. I'd rather not call the police. Please fuck off."

*cue guy stuttering, moving on to girl behind me*

yeah, I don't doubt that there's at least a few indie voters going Obama as anti-Hillary votes. even if they're not going for him in the general, it suggests they'd be less likely to turn out against her then.

I also think it's possible that repubs are far more likely to talk about their willingness to vote for Obama than Dems are to talk about their unwillingness to vote for him.

Btw, my Dad's position isn't so much anti-Hillary as it is anti-Bill - the thought of a co-presidency is what really scares the bejeezus out of him.

I will admit that I was reluctant to vote for Obama in the primary (I think "unwilling" is a bit too strong) - for reasons of experience. If he wins the nomination, I'd gladly vote for him. But, right or wrong, I decided to vote this time based on my assessment of who's more qualified for the job rather than for reasons of perceived electability.

David Brooks claims this could all come down...to PUERTO RICO. Awesome.

Yeah, I heard about that as well. Could be interesting.

this thing isn't going past PA, and I'm somewhat skeptical that it'll get that far

if someone wins decisively in OH without losing badly in TX, it's over

could stay up in the air if Clinton wins OH having lost whites in VA, tho

or we might get into a fight over who won what part of OH

two of my four bandmates voted for ron paul WTF?!

-- Hurting 2, Thursday, February 7, 2008 12:51 AM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah we got asked to play some ron paul benefit that was being organized by a dude that puts on a big indie rock fest every summer...i was like "sorry"