I read the script the other day and thought to myself "this is really one hell of a stupid story"
however I do like the movie mostly for the visuals and weirdness
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Monday, 13 August 2018 16:36 (five years ago) link
did you feel that way about the book's story, too?
i haven't read dune since high school. i've always thought of myself as a general "supporter of dune", but even back then, during a time when my critical radar was completely non-existent and i pretty much devoured and loved whatever i read or saw, dune was underwhelming.
(response idea: 'no you're underwhelming'
but now i guess i'm the kind of jerk who wonders if dune is the most overrated book of the 1960s
― Karl Malone, Monday, 13 August 2018 18:37 (five years ago) link
this thread is about the film, not the book (another response idea)
same. and certain parts are undeniably gripping and unforgettable. the "fear is the mind killer" scene is so good.
― Karl Malone, Monday, 13 August 2018 18:41 (five years ago) link
The book isn't overrated. It's the first space opera that incorporated the scope of Tolkien, having an old fictional world with borders extending far beyond the present action, and ideas from the nascent science of ecology about the sandworm/spice lifecycle. However, filming it as a messiah/Muhammed story misses all of that. You might as well film Stranger in a Strange Land if you want SF spiritual heroics on a budget.
― Roomba with an attitude (Sanpaku), Monday, 13 August 2018 18:48 (five years ago) link
However, filming it as a messiah/Muhammed story misses all of that
There's a pretty big dose of this in the book, tbh
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Monday, 13 August 2018 18:53 (five years ago) link
yes i'm unconvinced a tolkien-style epic is the best lens for "ideas from the nascent science of ecology" tho i can see how a multi-generational approach might come in handy. but it gave the ideas a good pulpy hook i guess
also, nascent? ecology p much begins with haeckel in the 1860s (when it was still called "oecology" lol), so "burgeoning" is probably a better word, bcz it was a BIG NOISE in the 60s: it hugely overlapped with my dad's job and he read dune and enthused abt it to me (age 10-ish i guess). the problem looking at it now is that the ecology is soooooooo basic. it's a one organism eco-system: does anything native to arrakis use the spice to tell the future? (the only other animal i can even remember being mentioned is the little mouse that goes "pip pop"). if not the spice only has ultra-planetary (and thus anti-ecological) function?
― mark s, Monday, 13 August 2018 19:06 (five years ago) link
there are enough Dune stans around here to get into the top 10 of our spec fic poll, but I definitely prefer the movie, warts and all, myself.
idk if the scope of Dune is really that unique, although certainly it gets brought up a lot. As far as time scales and space epics go, Foundation predates it and I'd be surprised if there aren't other examples.
as far as ecology in the genre goes, I prefer the Word for World Is Forest (which, granted, was later)
― Οὖτις, Monday, 13 August 2018 19:27 (five years ago) link
for me what was eye opening about dune was that it was sci fi about human potential not technological potential
ie the deadliest person in the story wasn't the person w/ the biggest blaster gun but the female monk who had spent the most time strengthening her fingers on the digit mill
― the late great, Monday, 13 August 2018 19:39 (five years ago) link
olaf stapledon also does the generational thing i think ("first and last men" was another book my dad recommended to me, but i never read it so i might be wrong)
i think sanpaku's right tho that dune is early on the tolkien-as-space-opera jag -- foundation is surely too early to have been able to be trying to be that (i think it's quite unlikely asimov had read him or even knew he existed when foundation was being written: LotR wasn't big news until the 60s). either way, foundation isn't a foray into the same kind of cosplay territory
(also it's terrible)
― mark s, Monday, 13 August 2018 19:41 (five years ago) link
Foundation is def terrible in a way that Dune is not
― Οὖτις, Monday, 13 August 2018 19:43 (five years ago) link
I think I read somewhere that halfway through the film D Lynch was like "I dont care about this anymore"
Interesting to note that at the time they offered return of the jedi to lynch - now that's something id like to seethere are so many endless sequels too - the story goes on and on and on
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/patrick-stewart-didnt-know-who-sting-was-dune-1104219
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Monday, 13 August 2018 20:05 (five years ago) link
was nto aware of this but yawn, of course reboot eberything
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/dune-reboot-two-movies-two-years-denis-villeneuve
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Monday, 13 August 2018 20:07 (five years ago) link
The thing that’s interesting about dune (book) re: messiah shit is that it’s clearly conveyed as a constructed thing, not real, something seeded by the bene jesserit over the millennia, a conscious plot to regain power... it’s based in real power dynamics not magical prophecies
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, 13 August 2018 20:13 (five years ago) link
And it leads directly to the galactic genocide of billions
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Monday, 13 August 2018 20:22 (five years ago) link
d'oh
― mark s, Monday, 13 August 2018 20:25 (five years ago) link
The sense of vast history is something that the book really excels at -- by presenting the then-present of the book's publication not even as a blip but as something antique and lost in a much wider swathe of lost history in turn, and rendering the organization of human society as such as a mutated amalgamation of past histories in turn, the book constantly touches between something that feels familiar and something else that feels utterly strange. It's not as distanced as it might be, but that makes concrete details -- like when the Atriedes soldiers are joking with each other like, well, young soldiers, until one of them notices Duke Leto -- all the more important, and in turn makes you think of what the concrete details of our own vast lost history really were like.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 13 August 2018 20:27 (five years ago) link
yeah turns out genetically engineering the ubermensch totally backfires xp
― officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Monday, 13 August 2018 20:27 (five years ago) link
(i think it's quite unlikely asimov had read him or even knew he existed when foundation was being written: LotR wasn't big news until the 60s)
I think this quite likely as LOTR wasn't even published at the point that even the first book (let alone original stories) was published. I think Foundation influence on Dune probably greater than LOTR's, but I concede Foundation is pretty terrible (finally got around to reading a couple of years back).
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Monday, 13 August 2018 20:36 (five years ago) link
it gave the ideas a good pulpy hook i guess
http://imgur.com/BQbu1q1l.png
― mick signals, Monday, 13 August 2018 21:35 (five years ago) link
lol i actually looked up the dates of foundation (which i hadn't really known) and didn't bother looking up the dates if LotR (which i thought i did know)
if you'd quizzed me pre-look-up i'd have got them both wrong: Foundation 5-6 years too recent, LotR 5-6 years too early)
― mark s, Monday, 13 August 2018 21:42 (five years ago) link
I just love how much mushrooms frank herbert was doing when he wrote the book and how much it comes across
https://www.dailygrail.com/2014/07/magic-mushrooms-were-the-inspiration-for-frank-herberts-science-fiction-epic-dune/
― officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Monday, 13 August 2018 21:50 (five years ago) link
Asimov on Tolkien
It was back in 1967, I think that I read J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings for the first time. I liked it - moderately. I felt it went on too long; that there was too much irrelevant detail; that the battle scenes were a bit wearisome. I have since read it four more times and have just finished the fifth reading. Each time I liked it better than the time before and on this fifth occasion I clamored restlessly against having it end at all. Far from thinking it went on too long, I bitterly resented Tolkien's having waited so long to start it that He ended with only time to write half a million words.
I have since read it four more times and have just finished the fifth reading.
Each time I liked it better than the time before and on this fifth occasion I clamored restlessly against having it end at all. Far from thinking it went on too long, I bitterly resented Tolkien's having waited so long to start it that He ended with only time to write half a million words.
Tolkien on Asimov (from a letter written in 1967, oddly enough)
I read quite a lot – or more truly, try to read many books (notably so-called Science Fiction and Fantasy). But I seldom find any modern books that hold my attention.**There are exceptions. I have read all that E. R. Eddison wrote, in spite of his peculiarly bad nomenclature and personal philosophy. I was greatly taken by the book that was (I believe) the runner-up when The L. R. was given the Fantasy Award: Death of Grass. I enjoy the S.F. of Isaac Azimov.
*There are exceptions. I have read all that E. R. Eddison wrote, in spite of his peculiarly bad nomenclature and personal philosophy. I was greatly taken by the book that was (I believe) the runner-up when The L. R. was given the Fantasy Award: Death of Grass. I enjoy the S.F. of Isaac Azimov.
― Number None, Monday, 13 August 2018 22:03 (five years ago) link
tolk: right abt eddison, (very) wrong abt azimov
― mark s, Monday, 13 August 2018 22:07 (five years ago) link
he would put a few weathered chanterelles in a 5-gallon bucket of water, add some salt, and then, after 1 or 2 clavs, pour this spore-mass slurry on the ground
"clavs" must surely be a robot transcriber's error for "days"
― mick signals, Monday, 13 August 2018 22:17 (five years ago) link
if you squint it looks right
― mh, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 00:22 (five years ago) link
every once in a while i encounter someone with the surname 'mapes' and it is disconcerting
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 02:44 (five years ago) link
New sales guy at my office is named Feyd-Rautha Rabinowitz, so I know what you mean
― mick signals, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 02:55 (five years ago) link
The sense of vast history is something that the book really excels at -- by presenting the then-present of the book's publication not even as a blip but as something antique and lost in a much wider swathe of lost history in turn, and rendering the organization of human society as such as a mutated amalgamation of past histories in turn, the book constantly touches between something that feels familiar and something else that feels utterly strange.
― Ned Raggett
yeah i really enjoyed herbert's dissertation on historiography (i.e. god emperor)
― the late great, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 05:04 (five years ago) link
that came out sounding sarcastic but it's not! great book
― the late great, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 05:07 (five years ago) link
I gave a book report on god emperor of dune in 8th grade like the fucking world class nerd that I am. I assume it was incomprehensible.
― officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 05:29 (five years ago) link
I gave a book report on god emperor of dune in 8th grade like the fucking world class nerd GOD EMPEROR that I am
― the late great, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 05:31 (five years ago) link
*bows down*
― the late great, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 05:32 (five years ago) link
what I find implausible is the idea that after 3500 years of genetic screwing around humans would be at all recognizable psychologically like humans from the 60's - it seems like they would be more inhuman with stranger motivations
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 13:07 (five years ago) link
tbf paul's son turns himself into a worm and lives for several thousand years
― mark s, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 13:09 (five years ago) link
"In Heretics of Dune, Reverend Mother and Imprinter Lucilla is charged with the seduction-imprinting of the Duncan Idaho ghola so that the Sisterhood may assert some control over him; he ultimately avoids her. Lucilla also mentions the hundreds of sexual positions and variations she knows. In Heretics, the Honored Matres have themselves refined this ability to such an intense level that the targeted male becomes completely enslaved. "
TRUE
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 13:46 (five years ago) link
the worms seem a bit phallic
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 13:47 (five years ago) link
#goals tbh
― a space stewardess (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 13:53 (five years ago) link
let's call it what it was - a worm human hybrid
HE BECAME A HUT
He went to live on Tatooine with George Luckas
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Leto-become-a-worm-in-Dune
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 14:28 (five years ago) link
i like dune
agree that the messiah plot is more its center than the ecology, tho the latter was certainly a big part of its success+influence. what mark s points out as counterthematically simplistic, indeed ridiculous, thru an ecological lens-- a near-dead planet whose dominant organism's life cycle revolves around the rebirth of humanity from stagnant intergalactic feudalism-- makes more sense as mythic element in story about historical motion, its violence, the weirdness (psychedelia) of its inevitability. the lynch movie actually isolates this theme v successfully imo-- without change, something sleeps inside us-- and if you watch a version incorporating some of the cut material (the tv cut lynch took his name off is m/l unwatchable, but there are fan cuts w some sense of style) you even get a hurried hint of the theme d-40 describes (prophecy-- historiography-- as consciously constructed organizing force passing out of the control of its constructors). lynch's use of princess irulan as narrator also a nod to the book's use of her (in chapter epigraphs) to cast the story as depersonalized past history even as you are reading it-- tho lynch doesn't actually use her like this himself.
recently watched the scifi channel miniseries lol (i like dune). perplexing in many ways. its whole premise, from pushy title (FRANK HERBERT'S DUNE) on, is faithfulness to the source text, thru reverence and thru having the space to do it right (special features on the cheap dvds i got include a lot of producer talk about the ~power of the miniseries format~). but right off the bat it has her reverence gaius helen mohiam test the young paul atreides in a brightly lit white room the designers of the enterprise-d would disdain as bland; and when h.r. g.h.m. orders the lady jessica out of the room she exits via a door that goes whoosh. the book clearly says this stuff happens in a dank drippy feudal castle and this is exactly what the supposedly irreverent lynch delivers-- to (km otm) terrific effect. the series takes pains to accurately reproduce the political machinations of the emperor, the guild, and the council of nobles it has too little faith in you-the-viewer to call the landsraad (presumably also the reason it won't call the spice melange)-- but it doesn't even try to recreate the actual tone and vibe of strange medieval space opera that is so key to the historically slippery quality ned describes. (at the same time it takes lynch's camp harkonnens as absolute canon-- has the baron, whose "suspensors" in the book only support him the way a cane would, flying around the ceiling and everything-- while stopping only to make them even gayer.)
anyway. first and last men def a precedent in terms of future-historical scale. the clearest descendants are book of the new sun and the wheel of time, but i think the most mature+beautiful use of this kind of palimpsestic historical sweep is in leguin's stone masterpiece always coming home, in which historical motion is both theme and structuring metaphor-- like gravity's rainbow a book obsessed from title down w a specific curve. dune is pulp by comparison. but i love its deliberate fairytaleisms: a story about a duke, a baron, an emperor, a guild, witches, free men. the most likable quality it shares with LOTR is that this whole vast glossaried invented history is tangibly ginned up from a bedtime story. well and that it's clearly by a guy who likes going for walks.
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 05:43 (five years ago) link
booming
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 06:25 (five years ago) link
(applause)
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 06:31 (five years ago) link
Nikki MInaj with Dune reboot!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMymSXUN9nQ
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 12:40 (five years ago) link
Well done indeed d.l.h. — and to expand on the last point, I recall at least one early summary or book jacket flap I encountered via a library or something where it took clear pains to frame the story in that vein, where it could almost have been a medieval adventure. Sugaring the pill (or spiking the spice). Similar was done for _Watership Down_ in a couple of corners, framing it as the story of exiles searching for a new home and leaving the fact it’s rabbits unstated/understated. (Also a book about history/myth/mishmash of the two — not to mention breeding programs!)
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 12:53 (five years ago) link
It seems almost like Idiocracy in that respect - like the humans have long since forgotten how to do anything but use their mentats and bene gesserets and just pompously romp about seeking power and pride.
The mixture of medieval and high tech always makes me think of He-Man's odd world - why use a sword when you have access to laser guns?
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 13:04 (five years ago) link
holtzmann effect iirc
― the late great, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 14:59 (five years ago) link
well put DLH
― the late great, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 15:02 (five years ago) link
I recall at least one early summary or book jacket flap I encountered via a library or something where it took clear pains to frame the story in that vein, where it could almost have been a medieval adventure.
ha yes my mouldering library-sale first edition has this across both flaps:
The duke must exchange his lands. Instead of his own lovely domain, rich and well-watered, he and his wife and son must move to and accept a barren desert, where a drop of water is worth its weight in platinum.Why? The all-powerful Emperor fears Duke Leto-- fears his strength, his popularity, his growing wealth. And the Duke has other enemies, notably the great rival house of Harkonnen, led by Baron Vladimir, the living symbol of evil.A page of medieval history? Not quite. Duke Leto Atreides is moving from a planet, which he owns, to another planet, which he has been given in exchange. The Emperor, Shaddam IV, is Emperor of the known Universe, not a country. And Duke Leto's son, Paul, is not a normal noble heir. In fact, he is so little normal in any way that he happens to be the possible key to all human rule, power and knowledge!The Duke's lady, Paul's mother, is unusual as well. She is the creature of the Bene Gesserit, the strangest religious matriarchy ever conceived, whose aims are also universal rule....Meticulously worked out, marvelously detailed, frightening, exciting, baffling, challenging, Dune will never let the reader go. A book as universal as time, brilliant in scope and dazzling in narrative style, Dune will be long discussed as the penultimate in writing of the distant future, the example of what can be done when a skilled writer turns his eyes forward into history rather than back.
Why? The all-powerful Emperor fears Duke Leto-- fears his strength, his popularity, his growing wealth. And the Duke has other enemies, notably the great rival house of Harkonnen, led by Baron Vladimir, the living symbol of evil.
A page of medieval history? Not quite. Duke Leto Atreides is moving from a planet, which he owns, to another planet, which he has been given in exchange. The Emperor, Shaddam IV, is Emperor of the known Universe, not a country. And Duke Leto's son, Paul, is not a normal noble heir. In fact, he is so little normal in any way that he happens to be the possible key to all human rule, power and knowledge!
The Duke's lady, Paul's mother, is unusual as well. She is the creature of the Bene Gesserit, the strangest religious matriarchy ever conceived, whose aims are also universal rule....
Meticulously worked out, marvelously detailed, frightening, exciting, baffling, challenging, Dune will never let the reader go. A book as universal as time, brilliant in scope and dazzling in narrative style, Dune will be long discussed as the penultimate in writing of the distant future, the example of what can be done when a skilled writer turns his eyes forward into history rather than back.
love the (unintentional?)_mysterious foreshadowing of "the penultimate in writing of the distant future", v apropos.
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 16:52 (five years ago) link
the emperor isn't just emperor of a country-- well i should hope not
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 16:53 (five years ago) link
haha yeah that's some shitty writing
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 17:19 (five years ago) link
I always think its a mistake to say Ruler of the Universe - that's too big - a local supercluster maybe - the universe probably has trillions of planets that can support life! too many extras!
Also if water is so scarce on Dune and you have big fucking spaceships that can fold space just bring a bunch of water with you - Dasani
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 17:30 (five years ago) link