"I Hope You're Happy Now, Jacob"--The LOST Season 5 Thread

The running theory around the internet seems to be that Locke is now the Man in Black, but if that's the case, why would Jacob heal him younger Locke and help him on his journey?

Present-day Jacob is hanging out in the shadows, and whatever was confined to the circle of ash and Jacob's cabin is no longer there. Seems just as likely to me that Locke is actually Jacob, and shapeshifter-Jacob is actually the man in black.

Doesn't seem like real Jacob would be so mean to Ben, imo.

-him

[i]why would Jacob heal him younger Locke and help him on his journey?<i/>

When did this happen? Widmore and Abbadon helped out Locke, as far as I can recall. I think Jacob was invested in keeping Locke alive, whereas Titus was out to have him end up dead so he could serve as host ...

When did this happen? Widmore and Abbadon helped out Locke, as far as I can recall.

Locke fell out of a window, and was seemingly dead on the ground. Jacob was reading Flannery O'Connor. Jacob walked over and touched John on the shoulder, and his eyes opened immediately.

The Black Swan Theory as coined by Nassim Nicholas Taleb refers to an event in history that might by it's sheer unlikeliness change the course of history, and might come as a surprise even though in hindsight, it all appears to be plausible and foreseeable. The unlikely events during The Incident, the name of the site being The Swan and the surprising (in an empirical sense) change of the title card from black to white echo these assumptions. See also the related black swan problem and it's application in everyday science.

Locke fell out of a window, and was seemingly dead on the ground. Jacob was reading Flannery O'Connor. Jacob walked over and touched John on the shoulder, and his eyes opened immediately.

Oh, I see - I didn't see that as Locke being healed but just as being visited. My takeaway was that Locke would have lived regardless.

EW recap is great, agreed.

Really think Sobek is important:

Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death.

Oh, I see - I didn't see that as Locke being healed but just as being visited. My takeaway was that Locke would have lived regardless.

Probably right, but it seemed to me like life flowed into his face when he was touched.

I was kinda grossed by the glass stuck into Locke's face - ouch

An aside - regarding Ben and Locke's original meeting with "Jacob", remember that at that point Locke came in, and broke the ash circle surrounding the cabin, freeing Esau/Anti-Jacob/Cain/Jacob's enemy. Ben had never actually met Jacob, so this was probably Esau all along. When the Shadow of the Statue crew went to the cabin, perhaps they weren't looking for Jacob after all, since they probably realized by then that Zombie Locke was Esau in disguise, they looked ready for a fight (with a trapped demigod?).

The next appearance for Locke at Jacob's cabin was motivated by Locke meeting ghost-Horace in a dream. Another point likely to be for Esau, since he's the one who's been impersonating dead people all along... Interesting though the implication there that the cabin is more recent and was built by Horace for his family in the Dharma times - compare this to the statue home which seems to have been there for thousands of years.

Locke was definitely healed by Jacob, I think - they're remarked earlier this year (or last) how miraculous it was that he survived an 8-story fall. Also his suddenly shock and waking after being touched by Jacob... seems like divine healing.

i could have done with another big reveal at the end honestly dudes

i mean the bomb going off is still an "is it or isn't it" plot point so the fact that it DID go off is ambiguous

You guys may be right about Jacob healing Locke - it's weird to have healed Locke and killed Nadia though!

Jacob isn't concerned with saving lives, he's concerned with keeping his players in movement toward whatever end he has planned for them, aka "progress"

xp up a bit - There was some big talk in the episode where we saw him fall from the doctors about how miraculous it was that he survived at all, to be fair..

xp Nhex - that's what I was thinking. They were chasing Esau all along.

that wiki entry on Sobek is really thought-provoking, thanks.

Some guy says:

So the Ajira people are allies of Jacob, and therefore allies of The Others. So when they approached Miles about not getting aboard the boat that Widmore hired him to be on, then that means Widmore is their enemy. It stands to reason that Widmore could really be working for Facob since being ousted as leader of The Others. Both Jacob and Facob wanted to ensure that all of the key players return to the island. Widmore's intentions have never been very clear, but now it seems like he's aligned himself with Facob. Facob/Christian sent Locke to turn the donkey wheel, which Widmore was waiting for with his camera setup. Then Widmore convinces Locke to bring the O6 back together, and that ultimately leads to Locke's death, which we see now is part of Facob's master plan to manipulate Ben. Widmore also shares the same rule about not being able to kill his enemy Ben just like Jacob/Facob, but they also have their own loophole to exploit (killing their children.)

(a different topic)

I really think the "loophole" doesn't refer to time at all. If the writers did any 12 Monkeys bullshit than the viewers would be pissed to death. So either the atomic bomb doesn't kill everybody (since it's just the core or whatever) or the plane never crashes but they have to go to the island anyways.

The actual loophole that Jacob and Titus we're talking about must be something about themselves and why Jacob couldn't be killed until now. I couldn't help but think about the movie Dogma when the loophole was mentioned.

So what exactly do you guys think happened to Ben in the temple? Do you think it was just a generic "becoming an other" scenario, or something more specific and important? He is a death dealer, that much is certain. Jacob is not the first person he's attempted to kill, and that was not part of his character before the temple.

Another post:

Someone posted a theory that Evil Jacob tried the same thing with Eko, but when Eko refused to confess he realized he wouldn't be able to trick him, so he just killed him. If that was the (writers') plan from the beginning, I'll be really impressed.

Might be a good time to ponder black and white:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Black_and_white

# Contrary to everyones beliefs, Rose's husband Bernard is not black, heightening the black & white pairing in the situation.

At first I was like wha, then I remembered that Bernard was with the Tailies and not revealed until S2.

So what exactly do you guys think happened to Ben in the temple?

My guess is that we'll see that temple ceremony in S6 - the hold that Jacob has over people is pretty profound, and the audience hasn't seen how he establishes it. I would imagine you're healed from whatever ails you and the fear of god is put into you so that you follow Jacob's every word. Much like Locke developing a total trust in the island once he's able to walk again. Do you think Ben's initiation would differ other than the memory wipe to deal with his being shot by Sayid?

was the white flash at the end basically the same kind of flash that occurred when they time jumped earlier in the season?
― peter in montreal, Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:48 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

That would be a good plot twist, much better than some repeating time loop crap. I'm convinced there will be no time loop. That whole loophole that Titus (Facob) and Jacob had mentioned must be something totally original that we'll find out next season.

disappointed that jacob is so rubbish and him meeting everyone in the past was rubbish too

did he kill nadia or save sayid?

kept being distracted by the wee stupid pocket on fake locke's t-shirt whenever it was visible and even sometimes when it wasn't

Saving Nadia would've been as simple as getting their attention slightly earlier.

did he kill nadia or save sayid?

Yes.

Also, I know it was mainly because of backpack straps, but Locke has grown himself a nice pair of man boobs.

I noticed that too. I ruined a good 2 minutes of the episode for myself because I was engaged in some weird imagined hypothetical conversation between the producers of Lost and the guy who plays Locke, where he wants to shrink his manboobs a little bit by working out but the producers demand that he stay the same weight so that his character looks the same from season to season. Eventually they compromise that he'll keep the manboobs but will get to wear clothing that doesn't showcase them so much. But then the costume director is sick one week and the guy who plays Locke has to wear a relatively tight t-shirt, and there's nothing he can do about it since the whole deal is only between him, the producers and the costume director.

Meanwhile nukes are blowing up and Jack's getting kicked in the nuts.

Nhex seems utterly otm above, didn't think of that but bang otm. Hair etc looked more like dude on the beach with Jacob at the start too.

Loved Sawyer battering Jack. Juliet falling hurt me in my heart.

juliet down the well really close with des/penny phone convo from 'the constant' and stealing walt off the raft in s1 finale for most emotional moments in the series for me

"Throw the Juliet Down the Well"

and your island can explode

These videos are a nice little refresher on some of the key stuff:

I like that Jacob--though we assume he is good, because he wears white--is not all that benevolent. He doesn't attempt to save Nadia, he gives young Sawyer a pen so he can complete his letter and go forward into a life of conning and vengeance. He won't bother explaining himself to Ben, even when his life is on the line.

I expect Juliet to show up in the SSN 6 finale as a Dr. Manhattan figure.

Writers really should have given us a name for the Man in Black--since we'll be calling him Titus or Esau for the next 9 months. Lostpedia has the casting notice for the role though: "Samuel. Any ethnicity, 40s-60s. A corporate raider looking to take over his next company. Powerful, devious and obtuse. He has a cunning intellect and a strong sense of danger. May lead to recurring. Looking for someone very interesting and very special for this role..."

devious and obtuse and cunning, you say...

Oh yeah--it was great that it turned out Jack's "count to five" story went down a bit different than it did in the story he told Kate in the pilot.

Juliet death scene was fairly unemotional for me, just because I couldn't help thinking "it's your own fucking fault!". She could've been safely away in the sub if she hadn't been stupidly and unrealistically indecisive.

Miles points out to everyone that maybe blowing up the bomb is the wrong thing to do...but then within 3 minutes he's shooting dharmites and helping Jack?

Lots else wrong with this ep, but it's mostly been covered already upthread. Worst finale yet.

It's easier to get into it if you think solely about Jacob/Esau/Smokey/statue.

When Esau and Ben went into the statue i really wanted Jacob to say, 'You can't win, if you strike me down now i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'.

NAMELESS: They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.
JACOB: It can only end once. Everything before that is progress.

So this happens with the Black Rock, the others, the Dharma people, the 815ers, and the Ajira people. The only two sitting outside this so far are Rose and Bernard, who are probably island Adam and Eve, who not only gave up on violence, but gave up on any groups. There are so many points in the show where people could let their worldly concerns go -- getting off the island, staying on the island, who owns the island, relationship strife, every other damn thing -- but no one ever really just lives their life. Sawyer and Juliet get close, but they're still with Dharma and get pulled back into everything by the second wave of '77ers.

Maybe the point of it all is you have to just accept the world as it is and not keep fucking with the island.

i dunno, i think you could probably find plenty examples in the show's history of people who were just trying to get by and live and let be, and ended up getting kidnapped or murdered or pulled into some crazy shit they would've never chosen to involve themselves in. there are some drama queens who chase the problems, sure, but not everybody.

you're saying the point of the show isn't "don't be a big drama queen"?

The Locke scenes in the second half of the season are amazing knowing that Locke is really the Adversary or whatever. If you haven't rewatched them, do it, it's awesome.

Is it important (what am I talking about, everything's important it appears) that both child-Kate and child-Sawyer specifically break the promises they make in their scene with Jacob - not to steal again and not to finish the letter?

little Sawyer promised not to write the letter to his uncle/family friend, not to Jacob. Jacob gave him the pen for him to continue.

I wonder if there's a significant reason for Jacob meeting some of them (Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Jin & Sun etc) pre-plane crash, and others (Hurley, Sayid) after they'd returned from the island. The biggest hint to me that Sayid will still be around next year is that the scene with Jacob was a pretty straightforward "the island won't let you die" moment. And also Sayid spent most of the episode going "okay I'm really fucked now".

Also if and when Hurley and Miles come across Locke (or Locke's corpse) it's probably going to fuck with their minds a bit.

Back when Richard and Sun were talking about the Namaste photo, he mentioned watching them all die in 1977 and that hasn't occurred yet. So either they'll still be in 77 next year, or Richard was lying, which is perfectly possible.

Actually I think the worst thing about this series has been Ben's transition from uber-calculating one-step-ahead-of-the-game Machiavel to whiny little bitch.