"I Hope You're Happy Now, Jacob"--The LOST Season 5 Thread

jacob's visits actually were a kind of pointless source of questions

biggest sign of a link between all these and Smokey is the french dude, Montand or whatever, getting possessed in the Rousseau flashback.

Montand wasn't like FakeAlex or FakeChristian though, he wasn't an apparition. He had a body and could be killed. He had just changed, maybe more like how Ben was taken to the temple and became an Other forever?

Following my theory, I think it is wholly unambiguous that Jacob talked to Alanna in order to get her to reveal Locke's body. I think it is also unambiguous that Sayid was saved so that he could shoot Ben and help turn him into a pawn. It's tenuous that Locke was saved so that a host could be prepared who could control the Others and get close enough to Jacob to have him killed. Kate, Sawyer and Jack were all visited at character-defining moments and given advice that pushed them in a particular direction, a direction reflected in the way they developed and changed on the island that played out in their decision to detonate the bomb. Jin and Sun's visit seems to have been meant to reinforce their desire to seek each other out; in Jin's case, it pushed him towards helping to detonate the bomb, whereas for Sun it pushed her towards helping fake Locke. We don't know what Hurley's visit did other than put him back with his Lostie friends.

There's some two-sides-same-coin shit going on here, I think.

Didn't he fall down the hole though? His body could have been down there. It's possible you could still kill the apparition.

The question is I guess, is FakeLocke an apparition?

He's a physical manifestation, but then again so were Christian and Alex.

Illana worked for Jacob - I'm assuming she brought Sayid in under his orders. But i'm not sure she knew about Locke until she found him in the cargo hold and realized that the other Locke walking around was some kind of a threat.

Kate, Sawyer and Jack were all visited at character-defining moments and given advice CANDY BARS that pushed them in a particular direction

― Unclench, y'all, unclench (HI DERE), Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:41 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

OMG!! "Jacob" was one of the goons from the Big Lebowski! The one who shoves the dude's head into the toilet... not the guy who isn't housebroken, sadly. Hahahaha.

If that question upthread about whether or not nu-Locke had ever done anything physical.. Can't recall him touching anyone but he did carry in that big boar

he handed ben a weapon!

Didn't he fall down the hole though? His body could have been down there. It's possible you could still kill the apparition.

yeah but there were also corpses of the other Frenchies (who Danielle killed because she also thought they were "sick") lying around when Jin came by again so I'm not sure they were apparitions, just possessed.

FakeLocke and FakeAlex could touch things but it doesn't seem like they have a body as such.

uh didn't fake alex push ben up against a wall?

yeah that's what i said. she can touch things but her body also disappeared.

"what's in the bahhhxxxx?"

i think locke might even be smokey? they sort of hinted at it when Ben and Sun were waiting for the monster to come out of the bushes but the rustling noise just turned out to be locke. and then he conveniently disappeared while Ben had his little "this is your life" recap.

― Roz, Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:55 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

little Kate was so dead-on, btw. The way she held the backpack, the eyeroll.. That actress is incredible!

Actually thought Juliet's sister was Kate for a second and was like OMG THEY'RE SISTERS before my friend was like "uh, no"

better hope nu-Locke is not Smokey, otherwise smokey cannot be revealed as Ian MacShane when he is surely hired fresh from the cancellation of Kings.

Smokey seems to have access to people's memories ... and the apparitions are also manifestations of those memories. So they're related, I think. I think all the apparitions are Smokey to some extent.

little Kate was so dead-on, btw. The way she held the backpack, the eyeroll.. That actress is incredible!
Amazing casting there.

Loved the initial scene - it's like an overture; it makes no sense, but it's crammed with information and themes.

Confused as to why Jacob has a cabin when he's been under the statue this whole time. Was Titus/Esau in there instead?

Jacob's touching the 815/316ers - reminded me of Christian's not touching Locke just before he turned the wheel.

Have to rewatch all the TitusLocke scenes now! Are all the possessions/apparitions Titus? It would seem like it. Titus is evidently looking for someone to kill Jacob for him, since he can't do it (a la Ben not being able to kill Widmore) - so TitusAlex pushes him to it, and Christian tells Locke he has to die to bring the O6 back. Can Titus possess as many dead as are lying around at one time?

anyone find a transcription of the opening scene dialogue online?

so my post got deleted?

d'oh wrong thread :)

a friend of mine just posted some thoughts to his facebook page, it's good stuff:

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=604087574&ref=profile#/note.php?note_id=76640447886&ref=nf

***SPOILER*** if you have not seen the season finale, read no further. also there will be a small spoiler about stephen kings' THE STAND. i'll let ya know when i get there. ****

so, it all comes down to what john locke told walt in season one. the black rock vs. the white rock. good vs. evil. jacob vs. esau. we now have in place the pieces of the final war. we also have the shucking off of the sub-plots that have made the story so mind bending. of course that could be a bad thing for those of us who love that aspect of the LOST game. anyway, some observations.

RELIGION & PHILOSOPHY
we now know why egypt has been so important to the storytelling in lost. the egyptian book of the dead is the foundation of all the worlds dominant religions (i know some will debate its' importance to buddhism but heck, most folks who follow it don't consider buddhism a religion anyway). so, LOST is exploring the very nature of our religious tendencies. jacob as a christ like benevolent god. esau as the serpent. the island the garden of eden (or mu, or atlantis), a place of alchemy where scientific, magical, & spiritual properties co-exist.

the philosophy part is as simple & complex as free will versus pre-determination. jacob placed our heroes in their spots giving them the chance to make the right choices that will lead to their redemption. the choice is always theirs. esau manipulates the weak, seeing the human animal as a fixed system that will always make the same choices over & over again.

WHAT ILANA SAID TO RICHARD ALPERT
"what lies in the shadow of the statue ?"
alpert: "he who will protect/save us"
(thanks to all the latin scholars over at darkufo for that quick translation last night)
so, my take on this is that jacob is not only our heroes redemptive figure, he is humanity's redemptive figure. the island itself is the reset button or lynchpin for the entire world. jacob & esau fight not just for the souls of the castaways but for the fate of the entire world. will humanity break the cycle of constant war or find some form of redemption (what this redemption will look like i'm not sure of yet).

A MAN WHO THOUGHT HE WAS A GOD
eloise, widmore, ben, the so called leaders of the others have all thought themselves masters of the game. they have all tried to take control of the island. they are just wannabes. the chumps in the casino thinking they've got a system, when the house always wins. each was exiled in some manner for their hubris (though we have not witnessed eloise in this manner, so i'll reserve judgement on that one).

and anyone remember wtf was going on with ghost horace last season?

he was in a dream, can't remember whose, building Jacob's cabin. Then he started time looping and got a nosebleed.

That was Locke's dream, pointing him toward the Dharma mass grave, which got him the map that led him to Jacob's cabin. Horace repeated the same action again and again, which foreshadowed the island timeloop I think.

anyone find a transcription of the opening scene dialogue online?

No, I was looking as well because I have trouble hearing Titus' line about finding a loophole/killing Jacob/something about a final duel from the beach.

jacob placed our heroes in their spots giving them the chance to make the right choices that will lead to their redemption. the choice is always theirs. esau manipulates the weak, seeing the human animal as a fixed system that will always make the same choices over & over again.

That's a really nice summation.

lostpedia should have a transcript up soon-ish. just keep checking.

NAMELESS: You're trying to prove me wrong.
JACOB: You are wrong.
NAMELESS: They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.
JACOB: It can only end once. Everything before that is progress.

The EW recap is very good, btw.

Am reading that now, in fact.

Any thoughts on the bomb? Life goes on after 1977, we know that. Or since there's a timeloop, is 'the future' just 'the past' that leads to the Indicent? Is the Incident the-end-that-comes-once that Jacob talked about? Is Jacob creating and maintaining a timeloop and Esau out to break it?

I feel that the current activities of the Shadow of the Statue crew are such that I don't think we will leave that story unresolved, so I think that ultimately we'll return to that developing situation in S6. And if that's the case, I think that means that The Incident either is unaffected by the bomb, or only slightly so. That maybe small changes have happened, but not enough to result in the Jack & Kate popping up anywhere other than back in 2007 on the island.

all the losties will hav goatees

RE: Esau

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Bible Esau isn't representative of the "serpent"/devil/evil, is he? As I remember, he is Jacob's older redheaded hairy brother, who loses his firstborn status because he's so goddamn hungry that he trades it away to Jacob for a bowl of fucking soup (unbelievable bible story #123402, or at least proof that Esau was the dumbest man who ever lived). Jacob and Esau were antagonistic after that, but they eventually made up: correct? It's been a long time since I read through Genesis, but it seems like everyone is mixing up Esau with Cain, or maybe Joseph's older brothers who sold him into slavery.

He came, Esau, he conquered

Just to push back against the apparently widespread nickname of Esau, I'm going to start referring to Jacob as Abel.

I have faith that there will not be a straightforward biblical allegory at the center of the lost storyline. Echoes of, sure, but not a straight crib.

I really hope the bomb sends them all back to 1977, except Rose and Bernard who I suppose are Adam and Eve after all? That seemed to be the writers drawing a line under their characters.

I enjoyed this mostly because of the 'OMG Jacob' reveal and the 'OMG statue' reveal. I doubt Sayid isn't dead but I think Juliet probably is. Amazed that Lapidus made it through the episode alive actually, I thought they were going to go for a mass cull at one point.

Best bits were Juliet falling down the shaft and, especially, the bit where Sawyer kicked the shit out of Jack in that "are you seriously going to detonate an atomic bomb because you're emo about your ex? WTF is wrong with you?" Kate-Sawyer-Jack-Juliet stuff all terrible obviously.

Starting to think Hurley is actually the key to the whole thing.

I doubt Sayid IS dead, even.

i am just glad to know that vincent is ok

He was always destined to be Adam & Eve's dog.

was trying hard to remember where i'd seen jacob recently. i think it's cuz he was rita's creepy convict husband on Dexter.

i think i'm bummed at the jacob reveal in that he's really no different than several characters we've already met who are ageless time/space jumpers who turn up at points during the characters' lives. oh boy, another one!

jaymc how fucking psyched were you to see rose and bernard

rose and bernard out-hippied the hippies man

i just loved that they were like 'oh come on, fuck this shit'

yeah me too, I think that was actually significant.

the flaming arrows sealed the deal for them

I wouldn't mind seeing a Bernard flashback incorporating Perfect Strangers footage showing him as a miserable management type before he met Rose.

lol nobody just "retires" from the island... definitely shades of rousseau, how they evaded encounters with both dharma and the others

then again, the producers do get sick of calling actors back for things, so... also V is probably going to series so chances that Juliet is really dead are high

liked the mirror redshirt deaths, Frogurt vs. Phil

all this crazy, Stand-esque good vs. evil ultimate confrontation for the ages over space and time thing, i'm totally down for this S1-mirroring final S6

was the white flash at the end basically the same kind of flash that occurred when they time jumped earlier in the season?

It was the same color, but I think that's all we know for sure.

I doubt Sayid is dead but I think Juliet probably is.

I'm just the opposite here, but with no rational reason for being so. There's no way all of the characters present at the Incident are going to be killed out of the show by the bomb, so it's a matter of whether they die or not from the injuries they sustained before it went off: Sayid being gutshot vs. Juliet having massive internal injuries from falling...how far down was the hole, 60 ft? Seems like they said the distance at some point. It would be a nice concession to common sense for both of them to be gone next season.