NO DAPL and other pipeline concerns - Keystone, etc.

That list also doesn't include the state, and local agencies that must grant permits and be included. and finally it has to be approved by United States Government Accountability Office.

Right, but which one of those agencies were willing to do government-to-government meetings with the sovereign tribe with the APE defined as the entire pipeline? Which is what the Standing Rock, not unreasonably imo, demanded. Afaik.

xp

Jacob I got tons of love for you but the whole point here is that at least some of the affected parties do not recognize (and have never recognized) the authority of the US government over the disputed area (or themselves), and were not reached out to in an effective manner (hence the "serious discussion" quote above).

It's so weird to me that I feel like a spokesperson for the oil and gas companies. I'm just a record collector who has a job that I take serious and have studied and spent many years doing so these problems people are afraid of won't happen. I see many holes in this narrative about this protest from what I know of how things actually work in the field. That's all.

hey dude join the club

I think we all really appreciate you writing here, Jacob :) And the job you do.

I'm very much trying to work my way through the case, and a lot of it seems bullshit and obfuscation, both from the tribe trying to get sympathy, and from environmental protesters trying to frame it in a much broader context and unwilling to really grapple with the tribal complaints. But at it's core, I think there are bureaucratic problems, that does hit on a lack of respect for the sovereignty of the tribes.

I'm also not really sure I want to be the one who is anti oil and gas companies. We have the same fracking discussion in an area in Denmark, and it's actually an area I kinda like to visit a couple of times a year, but still... I would really like for Denmark to be less dependent on Russian gas, and while renewable ressources would be many many many times better, I can't say I don't see the value in a stopgap solution like fracking if it can be done orderly.

alternative pipeline route

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_expansion#/media/File%3AViking_Expansion.svg

from the Bismarck Tribune:

Audio released by the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe from a September 2014 meeting with Dakota Access Pipeline representatives contradicts recent claims made by a pipeline company executive.

Thank you for posting that link. I wish this had been released before this had begun and instead claim that no meeting had been held.

What happened after this? Why did communication break down? It's Fucking depressing.

https://chthonicstreams.bandcamp.com/album/nodapl-noise

Burn your skull for a good cause

http://kval.com/news/local/video-full-interview-with-lauren-regan-attorney-suing-north-dakota-police-agencies
regardless of your opinion on this project, fossil fuels, or pipelines in general, I hope that we can all agree that the responses by various LEOs (Law Enforcement Organizations) wrt the protests has been terrible. The fiasco with the dogs, this ridiculous firehose thing, on and on.

the word is the army corps of engineers are orders a full environmental impact assessment, which AFAICT ties this thing up ... forever?

"are orders" wtf. 'are ordering'. I think announcement within the hour

I won't be tied up forever, but if a full EIS is ordered, then it does slow things down and complicate matters for the pipeline company. They can still pull strings with the new administration and maybe get Congress to override the corps of engineers, so too soon to declare any lasting victory.

Yeah my friend working on the project said they are sending most of the labors to other projects or lay offs starting next week.

Many of them are coming to Texas to work on the Trans-Pecos and Comanche Trail pipelines going to Mexico.

ACE to Dakota Access: no easement!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/authorities-to-conditionally-move-from-bridge-near-protest/2016/12/04/64d914fe-ba25-11e6-ae79-bec72d34f8c9_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_no-name%3Apage%2Fbreaking-news-bar&tid=a_breakingnews&utm_term=.9669fa42c71c

Good news

wow

Probably could have avoided a bunch of trouble by just, you know, looking for an alternative plan earlier.

Does this last past late January?

So what now? What the next step? What goal has been achieved here? I'm asking very honestly, opened minded?

for starters, I would hope that the ACOE & pipeline companies reevaluate how they negotiate with sovereign native tribes in cases where the borders are disputed.

secondly, I'd like to see a reevaluation of the failed (& probably illegal) tactics used by the cops etc against the protestors.

thirdly, I hoped this encourages more campaigns for native rights

"hope"

I would really like for Denmark to be less dependent on Russian gas

OT: Pay close attention to what Germany is doing with power to methane. Basically using excess renewable energy when the wind is up or sun is out to produce hydrogen, combining it with flue CO2 to form methane, and then use the nation's natural gas distribution and storage system as a massive energy storage system. Basically solving the renewable intermittency problem using mostly existing infrastructure.

Its one of the the technologies like Oxy-fuel combustion (see also CB&I's NetPower) that give me hope that we just might solve the climate crisis. Chances are we'll still be fly stratospheric sulfate sorties after tipping points are crossed, to keep India and sub-Saharan Africa from starving later this century, but one can imagine a possible glidepath with renewables + batteries (for land transport) + algal fuels (for air/sea transport) + better alternatives to rare mineral batteries + negative emissions with (biomass fuel + oxy-fuel combustion + carbon sequestration). We'll consume less and tighten our belts of neccessity, but maybe our children won't be starving in a parched land in 100 years.

btw, from a friend of mine who was at the camp:

DAPL may ignore the lack of easement, keep drilling...and pay the fines. People being asked to please stay at Standing Rock.

Yeah my friend there (who's working to get barracks delivered and set up for the winter at the camp) is happy about the news but sees it as a "pause" button more than a "stop" button.

https://www.nlg.org/wplc-responds-to-decision-to-deny-dapl-easement-calls-for-permanent-stop-to-construction-dropping-of-charges-against-550-water-protectors/

Today, the United States Army Corps of Engineers announced that it is denying an easement to Dakota Access, LLC (Dakota Access) to drill under Lake Oahe and the Missouri River for the Dakota Access Pipeline (DAPL) until an Environmental Impact Statement is completed and alternative routes are explored. “The Water Protector Legal Collective applauds the Obama Administration’s decision to deny the easement, but calls for a permanent stop to DAPL.

...

“In light of today’s decision by the Obama Administration, the Water Protector Legal Collective calls on the State of North Dakota to immediately drop criminal charges against the more than 550 Water Protectors who have been arrested related to their peaceful and prayerful protest against DAPL these past nine months. The WPLC also calls on local law enforcement agencies to pull back from the Water Protectors’ camps and dismantle the road blockades and checkpoints they have instituted, and further demands that federal and state agencies conduct a full investigation into law enforcement abuses against Water Protectors which have included violations of their First, Fourth, and Fourteenth Amendment rights,” said Angela Bibens (Santee Dakota), WPLC lawyer.

sorry my formatting makes that virtually unreadable

basically yes it's a pause until a EIS is completed and alternative routes 'explored' whatever that means

also 550 people remain charged w criminal activity which is ludicrous

I think they're just gonna drill ASAP and pay the fines :(

they'll be fine, they can just threaten to drill in another country and then accept trump's deal to give them a bunch of tax breaks and go ahead and finish DAPL

yeah i'm skeptical of this being an actual victory -- even if they don't just drill and pay the fines, they might also just wait it out, see what the EIS finds, let the story fall out of the headlines (to the extent it was at all) and then go ahead later

The DAPL is going to Illinois. Begin putting pressure on the Democratic-majority Illinois state legislature for them to rethink the agreement with the oil company if the pipeline is done by breaking the law and the ACE guidelines.

Dave Archambault II on Democracy Now saying the protesters can go home now to enjoy winter with their families. Five minutes later (in a separate interview), Remy is saying he's not going anywhere until the project is over.

Tara Houska: some people can probably use a break, but we have to stay vigilant bc this could all start up again in a couple of months.

(I'm paraphrasing)

The station in Patoka, Illinois is really only a smart part of the project, the real destination is already existing pipeline owned by ETC to carry crude to the Sunoco terminal in Nederland, TX, there it will be available for sales to the refineries in Port Arthur and to Freeport Tx for export to Europe. ETC isn't really an oil company, they have no production facilities, well or leases. They are what we call a Midstream company. One thing no one has mentioned is the what happens before a pipeline is built. They open a bidding season where producers give shipping agreements that will bind them to produce a certain amount of product through the line, this is largely settled by current storage standing and well capacities. Before the DAPL was even submitted for approval, the companies were already in agreement to sell ETC how ever much was agreed upon. Continental Resources, EOG, HESS Oil, Conocophillips, and probably a few more companies are the actual oil companies saying oil to ETC to transport to refineries who have also agreed to receive a certain daily amount. All of this is decided before anything permit or construction wise is begun. This is why the Keep It In The Ground fraction of the protest confused me. Shouldn't they protest producers instead of a midstream company who is essentially a toll company?

or even better shouldn't they protest at all gas stations?

i don't know what this is, some kind of supply chain pass-the-buck?

protest whoever the fuck they want to

Ok, I should not tell anyone where or what to protest. I was wrong in suggesting anything of that sort.

When ever I have talked about DAPL, I've assumed people know I support the concerns of treaty rights and I have viewed the need for this pipeline and treaty rights as two separate issues. This has been a fallacy that I now see.

Jacob, I've appreciated your additions to this thread. I've only really expressed this to one person outside of ilx, mainly because I don't feel the arguments are worth the energy to me at the moment. Like, there are something like 15-20 people on my fb feed who post about Standing Rock stuff and even with the perspectives you've brought to this thread, I just bite my tongue and back away. But you've helped me gain new perpectives, so thank you

agreed, Jacob's perspective has been valuable and educational

After the events over the Thanksgiving holiday, it's all disgusting. A girl might lose her arm, and certainly will be hospitalized and never the same. I wasn't there and don't know what happened but there really is no excuse.

The writing on the whole DAPL thing is bizarre to me because I live in the state with the longest stretch of the pipeline, there have been multiple acts of sabotage destroying equipment (!), our governor is an assclown, the approval process was by a three-person utilities board of which one member may have had a conflict of interest, and farmers have been complaining about the (largely out of state, contract) construction group leaving debris all over and screwing up their water drainage tile.

A larger percentage of people signed the contract than I thought, but polling showed a majority of people disagreed with imminent domain laws being used for a non-utility. I'm not against a pipeline entirely, and undoubtedly any endeavor like this will have protests and actions perceived as ugly, but the shit going on in ND, juxtaposed with the lack of action (or completely underreported action) in Iowa just kills me

btw the Iowa governor recently said that Obama and the Army Corps of Engineers blocking that permit was "bowing to a few billionaires" (?!?)

dog whistle for Soros

also, thanks for the Iowa perspective, very interesting