What are you going to do if McCain wins?

I want a parliamentary system already.

and what OTM - there is no "vote like me" implicit in the first statement

dunno about making choices "better for them", but how about making choices backed by facts/knowledge -- obama is not a muslim, iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, etc

Yeah I mean the bar is pretty low here.

Wait wait Maria, OWNED LAND?? Who do you have conversations with, 18th-century zombie noblemen?

The problem with "I just wish I could educate people to make voting choices that were better for them" is about semantics and mentalities, I think -- if you have the attitude that you are condescending to "educate" people about the facts and truths of what they should do, you are lost from the get-go. I often wish people on the left were better at finding the space between that kind of condescension and despair/apathy -- the space where you actually have the desire and opportunity to politely explain to others what you believe (and, even if you don't convince them, at least give those views the face of a reasonable, well-meaning person).

strike voting from that sentence and the american people are happy to eat up people who want to educate them on how to make choices that are better for them - oprah, dr laura, miss manners, joel osteen style prosperity ministries, dr phil, sex advice columns, consumer advocates, etc

lol "eat up people" yall know what i mean

WHO ATE DR LAURA?

damnit xpost

Yeah, I've never seen evidence that American don't like to be edumacated. Style and tone count for a great deal, as nabisco said.

okay major xpost

This was part of a conversation about how the Obama campaign volunteers talks a lot to people who vote Republican based on "social issues" abortion. She thinks they should be voting instead to improve their economic situations, and if they only knew how their votes could materially affect their lives they would change their minds. I think if you're already voting on issues that clearly won't affect your economic situation, it's probably not because you're too uneducated and would just change your mind if you knew more about economics or sociology or whatever, it's probably because you have different priorities. Ones I strongly disagree with, but that still aren't the result of stupidity or ignorance.

And I'm not saying that all these people are saying we need to go make it illegal for stupid or inexperienced people to vote. I'm just bothered by the implication that people who vote differently are doing it because they have some flaw that makes them inferior (it must be lack of education or work/military experience!), and that these people I know in their early 20s who aren't experts in anything themselves are qualified to pass judgment on the other half of the country that way.

...and I should probably get off the crotchety soapbox now, I want to watch this vote.

Maria is OTS (on the soap)

Um, first sentence above should say:

This was part of a conversation about how the Obama campaign volunteer talks a lot to people who vote Republican based on "social issues" like abortion.

And the one about land ownership was from someone who probably would like to go back in time and be an aristocrat, and who should be ineligible to vote based on that comment anyway, so I don't put so much stock in that one!

mccain will win. reps will scam the election (again) if he doesn't.

McCain is not going to win. Bailout bill fails = economy goes even further in the shitbin and Republicans will get blamed.

mccain is not going to win, I do not think this vote is going to be close enough for them to pull the shit they did in 2000

This was part of a conversation about how the Obama campaign volunteers talks a lot to people who vote Republican based on "social issues" abortion. She thinks they should be voting instead to improve their economic situations, and if they only knew how their votes could materially affect their lives they would change their minds.

Yeah, and I guess that comprises so much of the blue state/red state thing that has been on everyone's minds since 2004.

I could be completely and totally wrong in thinking this, but I'm inclined to feel that people who have in the past sided with candidate x b/c of their position on abortion legislation, their espoused love for baby jesus and family, etc... will this time around, due to the severity of the current economic situation, put the priority of feeding their kids ahead of that other stuff. It's not like there are a million Ghandis living in the heartland-- when push comes to shove, I'm thinking people will vote with their stomachs, as it were.

The problem that remains, though, is what has been echoed many times over as concerns the apparently willful ignorance of so much of the population. The fact that there are people who are still "undecided" at this point is more than proof enough of that. I hate to say it, but I also think that many people are swayed on such an unconscious level when it comes to things which loom this largely on the spectrum of events...so sadly you get the phenomenon of people voting based on the candidate who they perceive as being more physically attractive, or taller, or more fun to watch football with, or less intellectually intimidating, or more of a "big daddy" figure...

Not to mention the racism nonsense-- e.g., see my uncle, who had been volunteering for Hillary's campaign, and then upon her losing the nomination to a dark-skinned man, overnight became a McCain supporter. (BTW HE (my uncle) IS WHITE!!!!!!!!!!!)

mccain is not going to win, I do not think this vote is going to be close enough for them to pull the shit they did in 2000

How bout the shit pulled in 2004?

xxpost

Have you been watching the polls?

All I know is liberals have been in shock both times Bush has won saying things like 'I'm going to leave the country,' 'there will be riots' etc. etc. and look what's happened.

I've lost faith in the American voter.

i watch the polls via 538 and it currently indicates a pretty wide margin. I personally think 538 is being conservative as well.

Yes, god knows I've lost faith, but this is a pretty singular situation (insert A Chorus Line parodies here).

Shit is so fucked that even the most elaborately constructed edifices of people's potentially limitless capacity for self-delusion are falling apart.

xpost

OK, the gap has widened from the last time I looked.

Perhaps this is due to Palin's hilarious interview with Katie Couric. Oh, if it could only be so easy.

I'll do the same thing I did when Bush won re-election in '04. Get drunk on election night, spew some hateful bile the next day, disengage from politics for a month or so, then resolve to get more involved with local politics/elections.

Around the time I resolve to take a more positive stance is when my relentless mockery of friends who claimed they would move to Canada will begin.

Dude, my friend who swore up and down he'd move to Canada if Bush won in 2004 didn't move to Canada, but did get depressed, gain a lot of weight, and drop out of school for a year. He was seriously that upset by it. No laughing matter.

I think if you're already voting on issues that clearly won't affect your economic situation, it's probably not because you're too uneducated and would just change your mind if you knew more about economics or sociology or whatever, it's probably because you have different priorities. Ones I strongly disagree with, but that still aren't the result of stupidity or ignorance.

I would replace " it's probably" with "it may" in this excerpt; at its heart, this is the part of diversity that everyone struggles with.

After 2004, I came home drunk and kicked over my Kerry/Edwards yard sign that was already falling apart due to the rain.

My birthday was the next day, and it was one of the most sullen birthdays I had had.

I'd drive through my neighborhood and see those Bush/Cheney signs, and wonder if somehow the only person who doesn't think he's crazy is usually the crazy one.

I bought a Playstation 2 soon thereafter and played Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas every night from ten until two for the next month when my fiancee arrived.

i was in fairbanks alaska working on tony knowles's failed campaign and i got tanked in the flophouse where i was staying, walked in on my roommate getting head, and passed out with my head resting on the toilet waiting to throw up

when i woke up at 4 am there was some dude shaving his head in the bathroom

I, personally, am voting for McCain because I am racist & hate azns

figures

Careful, crut... you know McCain lived in Asia for a while? Even longer than Obama.

We may be dealing with an Indochinchurian Candidate situation here..

I'm not gonna lie, in the 2004 election I was seriously bummed and fucking depressed as hell, I went on like a crazy pizza binge, gained 20 pounds, and I think I was in my slump for a good 6 months.

And while I will be pretty bummed AGAIN if McCain wins, I don't think I am 100% convinced that having one guy over the other is going to drastically change my life (aside from crazy war mongering or starting a Christian taliban state or something super extreme). Maybe I just am rationalizing it so I don't get so bummed out this go around.

There are freaks out there who think that if Obama wins the world is going to go to pot, and right now they, too, are planning their escape. I used to think the other side was just retarded, but recently found out an EXTREMELY talented, intelligent co-worker of mine is a far right wing conservative (he's also gay and a big Sarah Palin fan, which boggles my mind). I can't even begin to try and understand why he believes what he believes; why he supports a candidate who wants to pray his gayness away. I guess it's all just some ideology; that the hardcore righties think anyone who tries hard and works hard enough will rise to the top, and those at the bottom just are human loser bottom feeders.

Sarah Palin is kinda Judy Garland'esque?

I guess it's all just some ideology

daddy issues

Also in looking at electoral maps from the previous 100 years of elections, I really think one of the only things dividing our country is Roe v. Wade.

he's also gay and a big Sarah Palin fan

Maybe he can be her friend.

crazy war mongering or starting a Christian taliban state or something super extreme

i can see a or c happening...b maybe not so much.

recently found out an EXTREMELY talented, intelligent co-worker of mine is a far right wing conservative (he's also gay and a big Sarah Palin fan, which boggles my mind)

people are completely fucking insane. dunno what else to say.

i mean, isn't that something like being a beekeeper who goes into anaphylactic shock everyday?

The day after, back in 04, I organized a large and hilariously pointless anti-Bush demo on my campus. Then I threw everything I had into the poetry stuff I was doing, lost 15 pounds, and tanked my next two semesters.

Also started notes for a novel about "disillusioned activists fucking, drinking and dreaming of change in the wake of a second Bush victory" because lol college freshman

I think instead of moving to the Netherlands if McCain wins, I'll restart the old secession movement here. http://www.mvmagazine.com/2007/september-october/images/free_marthas_vineyard.gif

i know, i'm having fantasies involving transporting the conceit of that sci-fi novel about the pacific northwest seceding and trying to apply it to the seat of original guard freedom that was/is could be philly in present-day.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/report_60_million_people_youd

In the 2000 election I was 20 and barely paid any attention to the election and voted for Nader

:(

This mess we're in is YOUR fault!

In 2000 I was able to vote for Nader b/c I was living in one of those states where you could do that shit while being assured of the fact that in any event the dems had the territory locked. Since then, everything seems to have gone horribly wrong, both in the larger realm of the world as well as personally.

There is no moral to this story, except that, for whatever reasons, I am not freaked out about the November results. I'm very possibly horribly naive, but I think the game is up for the opposition?

SO NOT GOING TO WIN