Jeremy Corbyn vs Angela Eagle

yeah, some pretty good evidence for your case there Andrew.

The tweets show that she has no truck with changing the country's economic structure - she believes in being more cuddly to the worst victims of capitalism - New Labour's entire philosophy

Getting into a public spat with young, idealistic Labour foot soldiers when you're a zillionaire on the left (which JKR undoubtedly is) strikes me as a bad battle in the midst of a shitty war.

BTW those of you not following @TheMiliverse on Twitter - get on it, v. LOL.

i do doubt JK's position "on the left" and she undermines that position every time she speaks out in favour of the status quo: Scottish referendum, both Labour leadership votes. well-meaning but defensive criticism of capitalism is as old as capitalism. nobody who wants to preserve a socioeconomic system that relies on segregation of class, race, gender gets to describe themselves as a socialist in my world.,

It is beyond the power of any individual government, even the US or China, to change an entire global economic system in one or even two terms, and certainly not on its own. Any elected Labour government, even a prospective Corbyn one, will have to work within the system to some extent, even if that involves working sincerely to change it. (And there is still more chance of the British public electing a zebra right now).

Rowling's defence rests upon the fact that she's only really prepared to look at the nice bits and therefore completely overlooks everything else. When Blair came to power its because he was capable of selling his own vision to his own party as much as the rest of country. New Labour more generally was about convincing half the country that it was pretending to embrace the post-Thatcherite consensus in order to win enough votes to change it - and I don't doubt that a sizeable chunk of formerly social-democratic politicians genuinely believed this. Some of them are still drinking the Kool-Aid now. But they wouldn't have won without convincing the other half of the country that they wouldn't harm their spiralling house prices and low income tax rates.

The thing is, you can only perform this trick once. And everyone is pretending that isn't the case. You can't try it again without losing a big chunk of the coalition of votes required to win again. So the fourth rate Xerox of New Labour is focusing on the largest constituency there. The only problem is, they vote Tory again, and they're reasonably okay with doing so.

The financial crisis has destroyed the myth that sustained New Labour, that you can have both neoliberal economics AND social-democratic policies and that will please enough people enough of the time to ensure perpetual Labour governments as long as the person at the helm is marketable enough. Because Labour is so used to seeing itself as The Good Guys they assume that most of the population would really prefer to vote Labour as long as they can convince the country of their competence. I can't see any reason why that would be inherently true.

But given the lack of any new overarching vision (and Corbyn is not the man to provide it) you now have to take a side, neoliberal economics OR social democratic policies. And the two wings of the Labour party are making their choices, and they can no longer kid themselves that they stand for the same thing. And for all the pissing and whining about how the country needs a liberal, centrist, capitalist party, no one can bring themselves to endorse Tim Farron, which is hilarious in its own right.

The problem for Corbynites is that Blair's underlying diagnosis (you can't win without Tory votes so you need to appeal to them) is still basically true. The problem is that you can't now can't win without SNP votes as well, and I can't see any way in which it's possible to fight on both those fronts at once.

word to your long post, except you might be wrong about Corbs, but again, he is our flag of convenience more than anything

and i think you're broadly right about the electoral system, but the world is getting darker and more frightening and who knows what a well-organised leftist Labour party might be able to do a little down the road?

Yeah I mean the voters of ten years' time will think very differently. Corbyn is to an extent speaking to those voters now, but they don't exist in sufficient numbers yet - and they aren't evenly distributed around the country in any case. I think Corbyn is feeling his way but is fundamentally more comfortable with his old certainties (he's far from alone in this, whatever wins in 2025 will have to address the problems of 2025 not 1945 or 1965 or 1997, which sounds fucking obvious but I don't think many politicians think that way).

You have to win arguments and create those voters - if you don't then someone else will - and Owen Smith fanboys are never going to do that.

It is beyond the power of any individual government, even the US or China, to change an entire global economic system in one or even two terms, and certainly not on its own. Any elected Labour government, even a prospective Corbyn one, will have to work within the system to some extent, even if that involves working sincerely to change it.

Yes, one look at what happened with Syriza (or Berlusconi, who didn't play nice) tells you any Corbyn government wouldn't last very long LOL fighting the system, but its about electing representatives that talk and highlight the problems, and say a big fat NO to the proposed solutions - and having enough of those around the world (which is happening). This is a very long fight but we are here because the system is on its knees.

Corbyn - or more importantly what gathers around Corbyn (he isn't Moses) under Corbynism - are far more likely to provide alternative. Now what that could be is an open question. I doubt it would be mere re-set of social democratic policies. Corbynism provides an open space where that's possible.

yes Matt Labour left and right are largely holding onto ideologies that have lost meaning - Corbyn's supporters of course include a large cadre that are different to that and intent on addressing the future

In ten years time I doubt Labour AND The Conservative party will exist as they are.

Europe will also fundamentally change. I am not even sure this referendum result might matter that much.

otm

It was interesting to see McDonnell raising the idea of UBI again this week:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/universal-basic-income-not-credible-idea-labour-leadership-contender-owen-smith-a7226051.html

It's not (yet) Labour policy and isn't something i am remotely convinced about but it's probably the kind of thinking that Labour needs to at least be open to if it's going to try to redefine what a progressive future might look like.

For all the stick Corbyn gets about being 'stuck in the past' or whatever, the leadership does seem to be grasping imperfectly for a forward-looking leftism, in contrast to Blue Labour banging on about George Lansbury.

BBC News channel have been announcing a return to the system of an elected shadow cabinet tonight. Has been said several times.
They or Newsnight said a couple fo weeks ago that if that was brought back in before the conference it could go against Corbyn since the new members of the NEC didn't get a vote until after the conference.
So is the internal power battle just going to drag on interminably.

When was it ever not going to drag on?!

Corbz and the PLP tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSMfdKMZfiE

Interminably until we purge those fuckers

I've always preferred those 5 furlong type affairs in horseracing, not those boring 3 mile NH jump races where your 20/1 shot leads all the way and unseats the rider at the last fence. This is starting to feel like a fucking 1000 mile steeplechase ran at a slower than plodding pace and the fav is gaining a millimetres lead at a time. Stalin had some bad work practices but you can't knock his record of rapidly getting party moderates out of the way.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Crswl7dWAAAq8l1.jpg

one of the Black Lace members got a short custodial sentence for benefits fraud recently

I bet he wasn't having a ball

his agadooings were reduced

I've looked at their twitter feed and it seems that the above screenshot is a fake? oh well.

to the Left, to the Right

JUst had Alan Johnson on Newsnight going on about how out of touch Corbyn must be if he's into UB40 so wondered what the stroy there was, missed the beginning of the clip. Johnson also said that Corbyn and the Corbynites are the kind of Dylan fan who denounced him for going electric while Johnson dug the electric stuff.

Which sounds like a really adult view point. Not actually heard what Corbyn's into. Wasn't that wage thing from last week him at the opera saying art is for everyone

very hackneyed Q magazine type disses from postman pat there.

http://www.bigissue.com/reviews/music-reviews/2889/alan-johnson-mp-my-top-five-mod-tracks

That'll be the same AJ that fanboyed like crazy when faced with the presence of David Gilmour at a party/book reading a friend of mine gave.

Don't fully understand what these aides are saying but seems to amount to Corbyn anti-free trade b/c globalisation sucks and single market bad for countries outside Europe as well, so bugger it twice over.

Can't see how someone w/these views in the Remain camp cld have affected the outcome of the vote at all. Good international proletariat solidarity though.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/10/senior-labour-mps-draw-up-truce-plans-to-return-to-corbyn-cabine/

puzzling to think that you can have a list of demands attached to your letter of surrender

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzDzsoFEivA

In a frank interview Mr Smith joked that his ability to find a girlfriend - now his wife - in a school dominated by boys suggested he had leadership qualities.

what the fuck is wrong with this guy

jfc

Interesting to see Chuka Umunna and the GMB, both Smith backers, rejecting the call for a second referendum.

I always assumed that Smith's second referendum pledge was just an attempt to find a wedge issue to use against Corbyn, not something that anyone (including Smith himself) thought would actually happen?

nobody in PLP is backing any of Smith's policies other than stopping Corbyn. He could be saying he would make it mandatory for everybody to take a shit on a pic of the queen every wednesday and still there would complete silence.

I think that's probably right but for them to be publicly undermining him on his only significant campaign pledge shortly before the election isn't something i expected.

Maybe Chuka is regretting shitting out at the first hurdle, especially after seeing how much slack the press have been cutting Smith's diabolical performances. I could imagine a large swathe of Blairites secretly wincing like fuck at Smith so far. But still parotting the "electoral credibility" line about him.

I mean seeing Smith as a Labour leadership contender gives me hope I might be living in a castle in Monte Carlo one day.

Chuka shit it at the slightest bit of press scrutiny previously, but now Corbyn is here he realises opposing him is a piece of piss. As evidenced by Smith continually shitting the bed and getting away with it.

well this is my crude homegrown theory

This thread got p scatalogical.

Stay out of the us election one for a while maybe....

xp
lol you are right, i'm blaming it on the afternoon sesh rather than my own shittiness

Even in the unlikely event that he were to somehow win I'm not sure Smith is even remotely prepared for everything that would rain down on him at once Corbyn is safely out of the way. The Murdoch press isn't giving him a free ride because they agree with his policies either. This is assuming Smith agrees with his own policies, which is a huge assumption.

Chuka's own constituency voted overwhelmingly for Remain fwiw. I'm sure that will be rewarded in four years time.

Ha, I was drinking in the club near my flat, and someone mentioned the local party were next door (I had received the email, but had overlooked it amongst all the labour spam). So I went in, and it was a vote on an amendment to the decision to endorse smith. Basically saying that whoever wins we need to unite behind the winner. Shrug. Interesting the votes and abstentions were from smith supporters.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tim-farron-i-want-to-park-lib-dem-tanks-on-the-tories-lawn-a3344426.html

think Mr Farron might have to promise to move his party further right before any of the PLP will offer to join him

those lib-dem tanks in full

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/pacificrim/images/6/61/Cat_Tank_01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131122224114
https://pp.vk.me/c623619/v623619031/1fc66/l4mKt4FfQz0.jpg
http://ru.fishki.net/picsw/032013/20/pics/pics-0030.jpg