What are you going to do if McCain wins?

My position is fuck you, dumbass.

haha okay dude calling the US a racist police state is almost a dictionary-worthy example of hyperbole

haha yeah sorry I'm kinda cranky today.

He can call his captors anything he fucking wants.

Why is this, exactly? What does being tortured entitle him to call them anything he wants?

Why does*

I mean, being tortured sucks. But what does that have to do with what you call people?

fair enough. but can we say that this might be a pretty good argument against him being our nation's face on the world stage? you know, without being called ungrateful American-hating pricks?

5X-post

Kerm's position is that terms conventionally used to apply to an entire race of people can be applied to a specific subset of said race despite the inherent rhetorical fallacy.

(last part directed more to Mac boosters than Kerm)

xp Now that we've cleared that up....

Actually, Israel is much better than the US. They've got some government issues, but the citizens are, on a whole, far more educated and liberal than the US. Obama currently polls very well in Israel (much better than McCain does), and most citizens are looking to end the territorial dispute. Unfortunately, SHOCKA, it's not that simple.

― Mordy, Monday, September 29, 2008 11:49 AM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark

lol are u just challopsizing or do u really believe this? i mean, it's a desert shithole where you're in constant danger of having the bejeezus bombed out of you, but it's 'better' because you think the ppl in your community have similar values to urs? does the fact that a bunch of ppl in a foreign country sorta like Obama have ANY BEARING on your quality of life?

were McCain's torturers gooks before they tortured him? or was this an honorary appellation that they were awarded afterwards?

I am totally not down with living in a society as highly militarized as Israel. See Joel Shalit's "Jerusalem Calling".

kerm, i don't know if you're playing devil's advocate or if you really are an idiot, but i hope you realize that serious, non-casual racism isn't something people decide on for shits & giggles, it's usually connected to some sort of negative experience. for example, the guys who killed james byrd testified that they had been raped in prison by black inmates, which led to them joining white supremacist gangs for protection - did they have the right to do whatever they wanted to people who happened to be the same race as those prisoners? throwing slurs at an entire race based on the actions of a dozen of them is pretty much the textbook definition of racism, not some bold exception to it

I wouldn't even understand that position tho. I was mugged by three black teenagers two years ago. I didn't start using derogatory terms to JUST REFER TO THOSE THREE PEOPLE. The term is implicitly generalized. Even if you're just referring to your captors (or muggers, as in my case). Not trying to equivocate being mugged to being tortured, but there's a similar thing at play. McCain shouldn't racially derogatory terms against any one of that race. It's the nigger/black man, or kike/jew fallacy ("Not all Jews are kikes!" blah, blah, blah). It's still racism.

Not trying to equivocate being mugged to being tortured, but there's a similar thing at play.

this is fucking stupid stfu

That's a bunch...

So, no Virulent racists hate for spurious reasons?

Kramkoob - fuck you. My point was that having bad things done to you - no matter what they are, isn't a justification for being a racist. And that being a racist against 3 people isn't keeping it specific. It's essentially generalized.

throwing slurs at an entire race based on the actions of a dozen of them is pretty much the textbook definition of racism, not some bold exception to it

I would have said exactly the opposite.

And I had a long post about Israel, but honestly, not a discussion I want to get into right now. I think you guys have some wrong ideas about the country, but that's fine. Fact is, when I've visited it I've been very impressed by the people there. I felt more oppressed by a police state when I visited Italy over the summer. But whatevs.

One guy hiring, picks the white guy and not the asian.

This was not because a black man ran over his canary, or something.

And I had a long post about Israel, but honestly, not a discussion I want to get into right now. I think you guys have some wrong ideas about the country, but that's fine. Fact is, when I've visited it I've been very impressed by the people there. I felt more oppressed by a police state when I visited Italy over the summer. But whatevs.

― Mordy, Monday, September 29, 2008 12:09 PM (32 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hahaha woah italy is pretty fucked up politically but probly the least police-state ive ever felt anywhere

Ladies and Gentlemen - I'm only going to talk to you just for a minute or so this evening. Because...

I have some very sad news for all of you, and I think sad news for all of our fellow citizens, and people who love peace all over the world, and that is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight in Memphis, Tennessee.

Martin Luther King dedicated his life to love and to justice between fellow human beings. He died in the cause of that effort. In this difficult day, in this difficult time for the United States, it's perhaps well to ask what kind of a nation we are and what direction we want to move in.

For those of you who are black - considering the evidence evidently is that there were white people who were responsible - you can be filled with bitterness, and with hatred, and a desire for revenge.

We can move in that direction as a country, in greater polarization - black people amongst blacks, and white amongst whites, filled with hatred toward one another. Or we can make an effort, as Martin Luther King did, to understand and to comprehend, and replace that violence, that stain of bloodshed that has spread across our land, with an effort to understand, compassion and love.

For those of you who are black and are tempted to be filled with hatred and mistrust of the injustice of such an act, against all white people, I would only say that I can also feel in my own heart the same kind of feeling. I had a member of my family killed, but he was killed by a white man.

But we have to make an effort in the United States, we have to make an effort to understand, to get beyond these rather difficult times.

What Are You Going To Do If Israel Wins?

When I was there, there were soldiers all over the streets and we frequently got yelled at for doing stupid shit - like sitting on a sidewalk. XXP

big place, italy.

Venice wasn't a police state...

real talk if i got tortured by blax i would prob be droppin n-bombs too (more than i normally do, anyway), but i wouldn't just be using it wrt my captors. everyone gets it, even tracy morgan!!! iirc mccain only clarified that he was referring to his captors AFTER ppl called him out on his gookisms, i think it's p clear he didnt just mean a handful of slopes in hanoi.

You guys could move to Miami-Dade County; we don't follow the Constitution here.

So to get back to the original question -- besides emigrating, will people riot in the streets if McCain wins? Where will the anger be directed?

People don't get angry – they get sullen.

Acc. to 538, McCain isn't gonna win. So I don't know what people are worried about. Apparently no one has come back from a deficit in the polls this big this late in the game? Except, like, the Giants beat the Patriots last year. So I guess all bets are off.

America goes "tsk" and goes home.

I think part of the price you pay for being a small d democrat is that you've got to have the stomach for it. there will be long stretches, probably more often than not if history is any indication, that the "people" will make stupid hateful decisions. I guess why i grimace when people want to run off to more palatable places politically speaking is that it almost seems like they aren't willing to accept that price.

Hating *race* because *several individuals of that race* abused you == racist.

Hating *several individuals who held you captive for years and tortured you daily* and using *offensive racist epithet* to signify your hatred and disrespect of those individuals == kerm doesn't mind.

If you have evidence of McCain referring to Asians besides his captors as "gooks," or hating Asians in general, then there's your racism.

As far as I'm concerned: Holocaust survivors can call Nazis whatever they want. Freed slaves could call their former owners whatever they want. People who've suffered unimaginably can call their oppressors and torturers whatever they want, and people who share some sliver of identity with those oppressors and want to scold and tut-tut those survivors for their coarseness get to shut the fuck up.

You are all entitled to feel differently. Enjoy.

it's also especially annoying in the USA which is, as far as i can tell, probably trending towards a much more liberal society. fundamentalist backlashes notwithstanding.

Even assuming any of that makes sense, a person could choose not to be a Nazi. Choosing not to be whatever ethnicity your genotype demands is somewhat dicier.

xp. Probably.

No, some people are born Nazi, they can't help it.

Hating *several individuals who held you captive for years and tortured you daily* and using *offensive racist epithet* to signify your hatred and disrespect of those individuals == kerm doesn't mind.

that's cool my dude but why not just call it racism and admit that ur cool w/a little racialism? it's like bein a lil bit country, a lil bit rock n roll~~~

B-b-b-but it ain't. Can't do it, bro.

(PS I seem to have devil's advokermed this thread right off of my Site New Answers page... How'd that happen?)

nm, back now, musta been the glitch.

Don't worry about it, Kerm. Everyone wants to see everything in black and white. And I am SURE that if these posters were tortured they wouldn't have any bad words for their torturers. Just like one said "fuck you dumbass" up there. Nope, can't you see they don't have a temper?

(xpost)

I think part of the price you pay for being a small d democrat is that you've got to have the stomach for it. there will be long stretches, probably more often than not if history is any indication, that the "people" will make stupid hateful decisions. I guess why i grimace when people want to run off to more palatable places politically speaking is that it almost seems like they aren't willing to accept that price.

― ryan, Monday, 29 September 2008 16:18 (1 hour ago) Permalink

This is what I think too. Also, why it is pretty disturbing to hear people say things like "I just wish I could educate people to make voting choices that were better for them!" (FYI: Obama campaign volunteer) or "I don't think people who've never [had a "real job," owned land, served in the military] should vote" (FYI: multiple McCain supporters). Like wow, we'd better change the electoral system so that only people "good enough" to vote like me will have a say, and then it would all be better!

ps these people I am quoting are not crazies on the internet, they are people I have had actual conversations with in the last 3 days.

I don't know, does it make me one of the brain-washed liberals to think that "I just wish I could educate people to make voting choices that were better for them!" is really really OTM? Minus the "I" part, I don't think I should be setting out to educate anyone.

Because shit we make choices that are sucky for us all the time but when it mostly only affects you, that's one thing (hi dere sixth beer etc). I don't really need my drama to affect the rest of the world in an elected way.

how does

"I just wish I could educate people to make voting choices that were better for them!"

=

"we'd better change the electoral system so that only people "good enough" to vote like me will have a say, and then it would all be better!"

I want a parliamentary system already.

and what OTM - there is no "vote like me" implicit in the first statement

dunno about making choices "better for them", but how about making choices backed by facts/knowledge -- obama is not a muslim, iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, etc

Yeah I mean the bar is pretty low here.

Wait wait Maria, OWNED LAND?? Who do you have conversations with, 18th-century zombie noblemen?

The problem with "I just wish I could educate people to make voting choices that were better for them" is about semantics and mentalities, I think -- if you have the attitude that you are condescending to "educate" people about the facts and truths of what they should do, you are lost from the get-go. I often wish people on the left were better at finding the space between that kind of condescension and despair/apathy -- the space where you actually have the desire and opportunity to politely explain to others what you believe (and, even if you don't convince them, at least give those views the face of a reasonable, well-meaning person).