Jeremy Corbyn vs Angela Eagle

This is ludicrous:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/23/jeremy-hunt-weekend-nhs-death-claims-unhelpful-say-civil-servants

A briefing paper produced last month by his department’s team looking at a seven-day service and obtained by the Guardian and Channel 4 News says the health secretary’s repeated allegation of patient safety failings at weekends to justify the switch to fuller seven-day care “has not been helpful”.

Guardian and C4 obtain this and choose not to make it their top item, instead its #traingate.

"Support our journalism for just £49 per year"

I'd pay that much just to fucking make the Graun disappear.

If ever I click on the Graun, I always make sure my adblockers are all set to 11

I've hated the Guardian for quite a while, them urging us to vote for the Liberal Democrats was the last straw for me, compounded by the Scotophobia of much of their coverage of the indyref; but living in a country with no broadsheet to the left of Tory has given me some newfound appreciation of the centrist rag.

but then who will be the voice of oh forget it i'm done

it's good to see Owen trying to unify the party behind a kinder, gentler politics

this thread maybe is not the best place to get into this, but

I'm a Corbyn supporter (already voted for him yesterday, in fact)and I've had mental health problems since I was a teenager, but I don't really *get* ppl who are denouncing Owen Smith's "with me, you won't have some lunatic in charge" comment as being a mental health slur. am I wrong about this? enough ppl obviously feel differently that I'm fully ready to believe that I might be off base here, but colloquial use of words like "lunatic" like this seem fairly distinct from prejudice or stigma towards the mentally ill?

Neither of them think before they open their mouth but Smith's ability to undermine the view of him as the "competent" one is genuinely incredible.

idk, lunatic to me is a dated synonym of mentally ill, would it have been ok for him to say "with me you won't have some mentally ill person in charge"? i don't care much either way but i have problems with it.

Like if you're going to call someone a lunatic maybe don't spend the previous month pretending to agree with everything they say?

xp should say as well that I realise that "person who has had mental health problems" covers a whole spectrum of ppl who have had different experiences and may feel differently about these things

i think use of negative mental health insults are inevitable and not usually meant as a slur and should be overlooked and move on usually; but i feel bad nowadays if i use that language myself, and i would feel v bad and try v hard to avoid using it in a professional capacity

and because it's ingrained now doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards making it less acceptable, like other slurs that come from abuse of minorities

but the Twitter fit is dishonest because the issue people really have with Smith is not that choice of phrase

i think his "I am Normal" shtick is mildly offensive and pernicious tho

Neither of them think before they open their mouth but Smith's ability to undermine the view of him as the "competent" one is genuinely incredible.

Like if you're going to call someone a lunatic maybe don't spend the previous month pretending to agree with everything they say?

oh yeah, I totally agree that even aside from the metal health issue it's a stupid thing for Smith to say - especially as to win he needs to win over ppl who like Corbyn and voted him last time, and calling Corbyn a lunatic shows contempt for those ppl

(multiple x-posts)

Agree that its ridiculous that "traingate" is leading over the Jeremy Hunt/NHS story.

Saving Labour types are *really* invested in/excited by this traingate story, to a greater extent than any of the more substantial controversies that Corbyn has faced - these ppl seem to have a bee in their bonnet about Corbyn supporters apparently thinking that their man has a monopoly on virtue and principles in the Labour party, they are really determined to believe that Corbyn has been caught telling a straightforward untruth/behaving like a "typical politician"

Like to think JC staged it just so he can look the arty prankster we all just 'know' he really is.

Also - doesn't know who Ant & Dec are, has read Ulysses. Join the dots etc.

Feeling wearied about this all now ... because I just can't see a time when Labour, as a unified party, will start properly focusing on the current government.

The Labour party is effectively useless now as anything but a subject of observation for armchair social anthropologists and political scientists

It's 1981 all over again

Smith is such a grasping idiot that it is hard to take much he says seriously, but his mask has slipped a few times and revealed the thought processes of a pretty shitty human being imo. He doesn't seem to understand the game most of his type of slimeball do is try and project normalcy (or whatever the fuck that is, i.e. happy photo op with classic nuclear family) and not abrubtly blurt out "I am normal" apropos of nothing. There have been stories about him being a humourless bully and threatening an ill + disabled woman with legal action because she criticised his pro-austerity stance. Most of the evidence suggests he is not likely to be sensitive to mental health issues.

Seriously can you imagine if this is the thing that sinks Corbyn?

afaict the consensus among political journalists (however much faith you put in that) is that there is no appetite for a split if/after Corbyn is re-elected. some ppl suggesting that the rebels will just force another leadership election as early as the start of next year, but I can't see a way they could do that without *them* (rather than Corbyn) being seen as the wreckers, after he's won two leadership elections in 12 months, plus the fact that they would not be able to exclude the new members who have joined since Jan from voting the next time. something is going to have to give - I'd guess that the unity of the rebels will come apart, some will reluctantly/grudgingly attempt to work with Corbyn, some will remain irreconcilable and continue trying to undermine him. there are local and mayoral elections in May next year so I guess if results are bad that could be the rationale for another coup attempt.

Newsnight rn sinking it in. Hilarious.

Can this please not be fiction? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-targets-deputy-tom-8685583

I suppose the nightmare scenario for Corbyn's opponents is that Lab do just well enough in local elections etc to prevent him being ousted as leader, but not well enough that they have any chance of forming a govt for foreseeable future, so it's in their interest to make sure Labour is in such a mess that it has disastrous results, but have to make sure that it's Corbyn rather than them who is responsible for the disaster. based on what we've seen so far this seems to be wholly beyond them.

"who is *seen as* responsible for the disaster" is what I meant to type

If Smith is trying to sell himself as a person who doesn't say or do stupid things, he's got a funny way of doing it.

I am generally against lazy insults derived from mental health terms we have known and loved, particularly by adults who aspire to any kind of leadership role. It is relatively simple to avoid them, in any case.

I bet the Tories would love Smith to run against them, completely gaffe prone and the Murdoch press will have his idiotic ISIS comment on file. Thats why they keep saying "We need credible opposition to hold us to account" somehow without smirking.

the isis comment was horrendous and perplexing but it's not like corbyn is short of a terrorist controversy or two in the vaults

No doubt good use would be made of Corbyn's "terrorist friends" as well, but at least there is an ideology at work there and fuck the electorate if they don't get it :p

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1691720087/4257520_400x400.jpg

I mean, say what you want about the tenets of physical force Irish Republicanism, Dude, at least it's an ethos

I was actually referring to the necessity of dialogue in seemingly insoluble conflicts. But you keep posting your tired memes if it makes you feel better.

radio 4 currently 5 minutes plus on whether Corbyn could've had a seat or not, 0 seconds on whether trains are frequently so full that there are no seats to be had

(clue - the week before last i made 2 cross country trips, both were delayed by an hour or so, both featured stages of the journey where people were spilling out of the doors at every stop)

Watched the Newsnight thing on traingate last night and wondered if the presenter felt he was being devil's advocate by arguing the Corbyn POV against the 2 guests who were vehemently against it. & nobody invited on who took the train so knew how bad it could get. The idea that it could be overfull regarded as ridiculous.
Sounds like something that will be echoed across several front pages this morning from seeing The Papers last night too.

I may be in an unusually receptive mood, as a result of the announcement the train i pay Southeastern 10% more than the GDP per capita of Serbia for won't be calling again at my station for two years, but i genuinely don't understand how anyone can defend the system as it is. Bringing rail fares in line with those in Germany wouldn't just add about £5k a year to my post-tax household income, it would relieve pressure on housing in major cities and help revitalise fading satellite towns. I don't know if part of the resistance is the idea that 'of course, nobody will actually work in an office in the future' but it's perverse that it has taken until Corbyn for this to be a major plank of the Labour platform.

The whole presentation seemed rather one sided. From the presenter feeling the need to start the program with a take off of Corbyn sitting on the floor through the outside presentation's pseudo objectivity and on to only having 2 non sympathetic guests. Nobody with any familiarity with the train service.
I saw somewhere yesterday that there was some outcry from other passengers that there was close circuit footage being circulated without consent from the passengers on it too.

Questioned about his use of language on the Radio 4 Today programme, he denied calling Mr Corbyn a lunatic, saying: “I was talking about me, I was saying I wasn’t a lunatic, I was talking about myself.

How on earth did this man get a job in PR?

He added: “I am occasionally a bit colourful with my language… I need to be a bit less colourful.”

I look forward to the new, less colourful, Owen Smith.

Charcoal grey on grey.
The rise of the nebbish?
Any other nice yiddish words? schmuck? schemiel?

also on radio 4 this morning his EU position defended against the accusation that he was telling people they had to vote again because he didn't like the result along the lines of "I'm saying people voted thinking they might get a better deal but we don't know the terms of the deal" "I'm saying we need a bit more democracy not less" "I'm saying when the terms of the deal are clear we need to put it to another vote either via a referendum or a general election where labour under me would be campaigning to remain" which rather suggests he's not too different from a brexiteer who doesn't actually care what is "the deal" - that it couldn't affect his position anyway

xp the finest word: bagel.

There's a Corbyn press conference mainly about the NHS on Sky News right now.
& one point has just come up about the train thing that hasn't been emphasised elsewhere to my knowledge. Corbyn was travelling as a group with other people and there wasn't enough room for them all to sit down so it isn't just need for one or two seats.

As an onlooker I don't get the ins and outs of #traingate, but I find it chilling that a private company can release it's camera footage for political gain without any privacy concerns. wtf?

Fuller story from that Sky coverage of the NHS press conference which BBC don't seem to have been covering for some reason.
Corbyn was looking for two seats together so he could sit with his wife and do preparatory work for the hustings that were happening in Gateshead (? or Newcastle, one Geordie town anyway) later that day. That detail was only filled in after I posted earlier.
He had been offered an upgrade to 1st class which he turned down and could only be seated with wife and perhaps another couple of entourage when the rail staff upgraded a family to 1st class.

But the fact that there is any controversy about this when it seems that the seating situation is a constant from what I'm hearing from people here and elsewhere seems majorly dodgy.
Sky News got given a detailed explanation by Corbyn which the reporter still doesn't seem satisfied by.
Seems to be a pretty straightforward thing to me.

At this point Corbyn could argue that being buried up to the neck in dogshit is a bad thing and people would react furiously against it.

People (well, the press a least) are convinced that support for Corbyn is zealous, so this is all 'what do you think of your messiah now?!'. I have no real thoughts on Corbyn except that he represents the side of the political spectrum I am on, and I think a lot of people are the same. I have no illusions about some 'immaculate politican'.

Saving Labour types are *really* invested in/excited by this traingate story, to a greater extent than any of the more substantial controversies that Corbyn has faced - these ppl seem to have a bee in their bonnet about Corbyn supporters apparently thinking that their man has a monopoly on virtue and principles in the Labour party, they are really determined to believe that Corbyn has been caught telling a straightforward untruth/behaving like a "typical politician"

Yep - hypocrisy is the only modern sin.

saying "What you won't get from me is some lunatic at the top of the Labour Party" was a response to "owen during this campaign you've been running around like a lunatic" rather than an implication that jeremy corbyn is a lunatic is such a blatant ass-covering lie

Wondering why Owen Smith changing his line to 'if he gets in he will stop Theresa May from triggering article 50' from 'he will hold a 2nd referendum' is deemed worthy of headline status. Seems like the 2nd non story of the day

Virgin trying to discredit Corbyn on trains can't possibly have anything to do with Virgin Health's role in creeping NHS privatisation, right? ;-)