Jeremy Corbyn vs Angela Eagle

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/08/17/bbc-labour-leadership-hustings-jeremy-corbyn-victory

There was little evidence to support Smith's theory in today's hustings either. Throughout the debate he seemed subdued and lacking any obvious passion. On almost all the major issues, with the exception of nuclear weapons, he said he agreed with his party leader. 'Vote for me. I'm just like Corbyn except I like nukes' does not seem to me to be an obviously winning strategy.

At one point the two candidates were asked whether they would hold negotiations with Isis. Corbyn wobbled and said that he would like "proximity talks" before adding that he would not have them "round the table". Smith on the other hand said that he would. At the time of writing, the comments are causing a major outrage with even the Conservative Party making a rare intervention into Labour's internal debate. As with his previous comments over "smashing Theresa May back on her heels" it is very hard to make the argument that you are the "competent" candidate, when you are continuously getting yourself mired in gaffes and controversies.

It was not that Corbyn had a brilliant performance today. His answers were littered with platitudes and he seemed at times to be living in an alternate reality. Asked repeatedly about which of his parliamentary critics he had reached out to, he replied that he had worked with John McDonnell. If this is what Corbyn describes as "reaching out" to critics, then there seems little hope of the party coming together after this race. His response to questions about the abuse of Labour MPs by his supporters were unconvincing. Corbyn was also visibly irritable at times. Interrupted by Smith at one point, Corbyn's voice rose to a rather comical falsetto as he told his rival to "let him him finish".

...

Instead Labour members are left with a choice between two leaders, neither of whom seem likely to win the next general election, but at least one of which seems like the real deal. Faced with a choice between an authentic but flawed incumbent and a little known, but questionable imitation, the majority of Labour members will almost certainly opt for the former.

once they've lost this election Blue Labour can pitch Smith as a conciliatory gesture to the left that's been shoved back in their faces and get on with the job of manufacturing some kind of Mandelson/Campbell/Terminator hybrid

i mean party unity blah blah blah but there's no dealing with these people, they're cunts

I think Mcdonell was one of a short list of people that Corbyn mentioned reaching out to, rather than being the only one. I did wonder what his name was doing among them cos I thought they were pretty unified.

The next stage will be heavy on the betrayal narrative - in eschewing electability Corbynites have consigned the working class to another decade at least of punitive Tory rule.

Obviously poking holes in this argument is a piece of piss but that won't stop them hammering it.

if i am going to be lectured on the plight of the working class it had better not be coming from a bunch of middle class Tory wets

99% sure Corbyn does know who ant and dec are, but pretended not to so his enemies would clown themselves

Now that Smith wants to get ISIS around the discussion table is he going to appeal to would be UKIPers as much?

Think I drifted away from concentrating on the show when that was on.

You're not from the UK are you, Stevo? I'm asking because your interest in this appears to be a bit anthropological and slightly disconnected.

Smith has unequivocally come out in support of a second referendum on EU membership which certainly isn't the strategy I'd choose if I was gunning for the would-be UKIP vote.

I'm from The UK, London area. Been living abroad for years though.

I thought some of the stuff he was saying a few weeks ago was supposed to be appealing to that group. Stuff about patriotism he was bringing up in NEwsnight interviews etc. But yeah the 2nd referendum thing is likely to be seen as pretty contradictory but he does seem to be all over the place anyway.

try to watch a bit of bbc debate thing but very distracted by the oddly wrinkled forehead of owen smith

that's what a lifetime of fighting for socialism does to a man

Seemed like Smith was trying to appeal to as many people as possible to get as many votes as possible. & not making sure what he said to appeal to some didn't alienate others.
I couldn't see the point of the sense of belonging to a place/ patriotism thing he tried on Newsnight 2 or 3 weeks back other than to appeal to UKIP floating voters once the party ended. Which looked like a possibility at the time, before their leadership election started. I think he was saying similar things elsewhere at the time. Does sometimes seem to be hurling things at a wall to see what sticks.
Obviously getting down with ISIS doesn't. Wonder what floating vote that was aimed at?

"Corbyn's supporters all love terrorists, yeah? Well have I got a treat for them..."

He has subsequently said that ISIS shouldn't be involved in talks until they have "renounced violence" so...lol.

Obviously good journalists would press him on whether renouncing violence should be a prerequisite for Syrian rebel groups to be involved in talks, whether Al-Nusra should be participating - which is more realistic, etc, but there doesn't seem much point. As i think someone said, it's an attempt to look 'reasonable' without actually having an idea of what your policy might be should you be called upon to enact it.

Corbyn has seemed more competent in the last few weeks - getting good reviews of his education policy in The Guardian, highlighting endemic failures in transport, etc - but idk if it's going to last.

the Zoe Williams piece in the Graun about his education plans was very good, a policy that deserves the hard sell.

it really doesn't seem to occur to Smith that a apocalyptic war of annihilation can't really be conducted in a non-violent manner, once again he shows himself to be a complete waste of a public school education.

Behind all the bluster he doesn't seem to understand much about the world. One of his activists phoned me yesterday and I sort of felt sorry for the guy. There is something quite sad and naive about people who are so easily impressed with politicians and give them so much of their time, when it seems so obvious that they are not good people.

https://medium.com/mosquito-ridge/the-sound-of-blairite-silence-aed2ef726c8a#.wub6zrou3

Paul Mason so ymmv but it looks a fairly honest precis of what those loveable ol' moderates have been up to lately

"Since key Blairite nabobs were seen running in Angela Eagle’s office during her short-lived leadership bid, and since Eagle has given way to Smith as a “unity candidate”, it would be logical to ask: what does Owen Smith think of the Blairite right and its project. What’s Owen’s relationship to Progress, Saving Labour and Labour Tomorrow?

But nobody asks it. Not the media. Not the TV anchors, because they’re too busy spitting the word “Trotskyist” and “antisemite” into the faces of pro-Corbyn interviewees."

more Danczuk news

A group of Labour Party members who were kicked out of the party for 'bullying' Simon Danczuk are appealing for their case to be reopened after the Rochdale MP was arrested in Spain.

Back in 2009, Simon Danczuk accused a group of local Labour members of circulating a 'nonsense' accusation that he had hit Karen - then his girlfriend - on an earlier holiday in Spain.

They said Mr Danczuk’s position as Labour's candidate at the 2010 General Election was ‘untenable’ - but he accused them of bullying.

The panel decided Mr Danczuk was the victim of an effort to have him deselected and said the group were guilty of circulating false and malicious allegations.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/rochdale-seven-simon-danczuk-appeal-11772205

i wonder wot do people "on the right of the labour party" make of owen smith's avowed interventionalism and commitment to tax-and-spend ? assuming they're not just "give me anyone who isn't jeremy corbyn and then we can sort them out or get shot of them and stick in someone we like"

― conrad, Sunday, 14 August 2016 20:06 (5 days ago) Permalink

wonder why i wondered bout this to be honest

forgot you posted that! pertinent to the Mason piece, yeah

sometimes I forget to remember to be as cynical as it seems one must be

That Mason piece is great, he is totally spot on about the complete lack of media scrutiny about Smith's laughable socialist posturing and his complete lack of a Road to Damascus moment from his previous position. Never seen a more hollow placeholder, hence the ridic ISIS remark - it is hard to keep up the charade when you truly don't believe in anything other than attaining power at any cost.

When you allow Jeremy Corbyn of all people to make you look soft on terrorism then Theresa May is likely to tear you to pieces.

Just read that the conference in September may be in question because of security. May be cancelled because of issues with the security firm they're using being in dispute with a union and this after they stopped using the previous firm because of its activity in Israel.

been reading andy beckett's book on the seventies lately & then watched hour-long bbc doc on youtube about healey.

things never really change in the labour party do they

Corbyn, Boma Ye

Sadiq has thrown his weight behind Owen - headline is that Owen could win Gen Election. Pissing in the wind.

Does he have any form of broad appeal? Or any form of appeal at all?

In the wake of last week's gaffe too would think people would be slower in coming forward to support him.

I don't understand why it took Sadiq so long to show his hand when it was completely obvious he was never going to support Corbyn. But yeah, he is pissing in the wind here, seeing as many members don't live in London and the ones that do aren't going to suddenly go "hmm, got no choice now Sadiq's backing him".

ballot papers go out on Monday so I imagine that's why he's made the big announcement now. But yeah, hardly a surprise and I can't see it changing anyone's mind.

Dunno, Sadiq's not put (much of) a foot wrong so far. It could make a difference, maybe.

I think at this point everyone with a vote already knows that, with a few exceptions, pretty much the entire Labour establishment is strongly against Corbyn. that being the case I don't know why Khan's annoucncement would cause may people to reassess their choice.

based on CLP nominations, Smith seems to have more support from party members in London than anywhere else in the country? Stephen Bush from the New Statesman was speculating that this could be because members in London are more likely to encounter MPs and party staffers regularly + therefore more likely take their reservations over Corbyn more seriously, less likely to view them as a hateful, remote elite.

Would English voters currently vote for a Welshman, or by a party led by a Welshman anyway? It seems like the days of labour being led by Scots or Welsh and being a electable force are long gone.

I'm surprised Smith doesn't try and get more mileage out of being born in Morecambe tbh, but that might be in development.

Considered unwise perhaps

If he wants people to think his pretend bow and arrow is real, pretending to be a son of toil from Morecambe might make him believe in some of that shite-talk and do it better.

Khan's won a big recent election, is why.

you know who else won some big elections?

Khan seems generally well liked but waiting until it is fairly clear Smith is almost certainly going to lose is interesting. Idk if that is with one eye on what happens next, following on from the Mason article.

i think "we tried with these people and they still chose Marxism" is definitely going to be part of the split narrative, hence the need for respectful silence/treating Owen Smith as in some way serious and honest.

thing is that Smith is so transparently unserious and dishonest that there's no way of supporting him that doesn't make you look like a right wing chancer. which appears to be Khan's steez anyway.

Barely anyone, Khan included, has tried to make a case for Smith. There is nothing there to make a case for. His endorsement was a case against Corbyn.

I like Khan, he has a decent moral centre - which is relatively rare in the party - even if I don't agree with a lot of his soft leftism. He would be no more electable in the eyes of the press than Corbyn though.

soft left soft lads more like

sadiq khan's whole demeanour to me screams flim flam

He just seems like another career politician to me, but still a fair bit more preferable to the likes of Zac Goldsmith - but that isn't saying much. But I still don't see how winning a mayoral election has made him influential enough to change Labour members, who specifically joined to oppose the likes of him.

I noticed Burnham hasn't jumped on the bandwagon yet, I'm guessing that might have a negative effect on his own mayoral campaign - otherwise he would.

If he was a career politician he probably wouldn't have spent the bulk of his working life rendering himself a walking press hate target by defending accused criminals, terrorists, etc in human rights cases against the government and the police. The papers went into racist meltdown when he was running for control of the cycle hire system, they'd be apoplectic if he became leader.

He triangulates better than most in the party but can definitely come across as too slick.

I was just wondering if Khan was setting any mileposts in his election and looked to see what ethnic mayors of London there had been. Looks like there was a black mayor in 1913 which seems pretty amazing. John Richard Archer.