Jeremy Corbyn vs Angela Eagle

This witch hunt is creepy. Is the idea to purge the party of anybody who might vote Corbyn or something?

Also somebody elsewhere suggested that anybody who crowd funded the membership court cases might well find themselves blacklisted. Which wouldn't surprise me.
I had hoped that this mindlessness had a finite end. Hoped that the election in the NEC might end it. But 6 people changing of 33 means less likelihood. Has the changeover already happened or when does it happen.

Does Labour have monolithic aims or is it a collection of different forces?
JUst reading through the newspaper clip above and thinking the premise taht one could have a witch hunt about difference in opinion on aims and goals wasa bit weird. I thought Labour had tended to have a broad spectrum and probably still does and will continue to since i don't think the Corbyn followers are exactly clones.

So what on grounds is this going on. Or is this something that most people from most perspectives are asking anyway?
& there was me thinking that Labour might actually be returning to some level of integrity and therefore electability. So nice taht this is the point at which those supposedly seeking to unite the party choose to hobble it. Great way of attracting new voters by making sure that those who've actually been moved enough to want to join don't get a vote.

Also really surprised to hear that Teresa May is now the most popular politician in the country and even appeals to 20% of the Labour membership, but have heard it said on BBC News channel with some frequency over the last few days.

Labour has always been a coalition of different forces but has had an ongoing myth, accepted by a lot of the centre left as well as the centrists, that 99% of members agree on 99% of issues but disagree on pace of change, practicality and the need for compromise. That has largely fallen apart and the collapse has been accelerated by the venomous reaction to Corbyn. It has been interesting to see a lot of younger, Corbyn-ambivalent centre-leftists wake up to the realisation that a lot of the party genuinely, passionately hates the idea of left-wing politics.

News has just said that this membership court case isn't being pursued to the Supreme Court. Not sure what good it would have done.

Must be a lot of disgruntled would be supporters right now, but may have been from the other side anyway.
So when does the party split?

& how can the Conservative Party be popular?

Well, for a start, they're not the Labour party. Actually that's about it, but it's a low bar.

i wonder wot do people "on the right of the labour party" make of owen smith's avowed interventionalism and commitment to tax-and-spend ? assuming they're not just "give me anyone who isn't jeremy corbyn and then we can sort them out or get shot of them and stick in someone we like"

*market interventionalism

I don't hear many from PLP talking about his "radical" policies, probably because they know if he wins he will put them into his magician's hat and change them into something else or just use the old "difficult decisions" mitigation to totally shitcan them.

Yeah, I'm torn between "A difference Jeremy Corbyn has made is that his opponent in the leadership campaign can openly favour 'equality of outcome'" and "It doesn't make any difference except as a collar he'll shake out of if the Tories try to tie him to it"

Margerat Beckett is always good value for reminding me why I didn't vote for Labour for 20+ years, I'm guessing she wouldn't be complaining if Smith suddenly gained a fan club.

They just had the televised debate between Corbyn and Smith on BBC News channel. Had the audience split up into 3 sections in the beginning Corbyn, undecided and Smith. Bulk of the undecided were won over to Corbyn at the end, they had that group move over to whichever side they'd been swung to by the debate. Some stayed where they were, a small number went over to the Smith area and loads to Corbyn.
Not sure how accurate or whatever that is and how much influence it might have on anybody else anywhere. & presume you'd have to be interested enough to watch in the first place to see it anyway.
But nice anyway I guess.

Fascinated by who might really be undecided - not meant to sound critical or sneery but still kinda amazed they may exist. I'd have thought they'd all be previous Corbyn-voters though (and based on the idea pretty much every new member joined because of his leadership).

xpost I'll bet that's the last time the BBC do that.

Did wonder how undecided that group was. thought there might be something in the look of getting up en masse to show sudden support for Corbyn but then thought what would be the point.

Did I hear right that the election forms or whatever the medium for election are are going out on next Monday and the election will be about a month later.

Also interesting if i heard that right, the debate was in Nottingham which was mainly 7 Labour wards and was still 70% Leave.

Trying to think if anything really stood out about the debate beyond me disliking Smith.

maybe when he was asked to what extent Smith felt personally responsible for conflict in the party and immediately started talking about Corbyn's faults and not answering the question. he was supposed to be giving a mark out of a hundred for how much responsibility he felt with 100 being totally responsible. He eventually came out with 3. Corbyn asked the same question answered saying that he wasn't prepared to put a figure on it but that he had attempted to reach out as much as possible, but was being accused of not answering the question because he wouldn't give a figure. While he had actually immediately given an answer, unlike Smith, somebody in the audience that I would assume was a Smithite was calling out for him to answer the question.

Also interesting to note that an audience member was talking about lack of respect being given by Smithite supporters in local meetings. Since it seems that it's the Corbyn supporters being accused of thuggery, notably for things that have nothing to do with them.

The beeb's anti-Corbyn's basis is a bit strange when you consider he is far more likely to enshrine the rights of a public service broadcaster than anyone else on the political scene right now.

Anti-Corbyn BIAS

The Beeb's anti-Corbyn bias might not be that strange given Jon Pienaar's daughter is on the Smith campaign team.

No one senior at the bbc cares about public service broadcasting though

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37104864

did smith find out about corbyn negotiating with sinn fein and try to modernise it

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/08/17/bbc-labour-leadership-hustings-jeremy-corbyn-victory

There was little evidence to support Smith's theory in today's hustings either. Throughout the debate he seemed subdued and lacking any obvious passion. On almost all the major issues, with the exception of nuclear weapons, he said he agreed with his party leader. 'Vote for me. I'm just like Corbyn except I like nukes' does not seem to me to be an obviously winning strategy.

At one point the two candidates were asked whether they would hold negotiations with Isis. Corbyn wobbled and said that he would like "proximity talks" before adding that he would not have them "round the table". Smith on the other hand said that he would. At the time of writing, the comments are causing a major outrage with even the Conservative Party making a rare intervention into Labour's internal debate. As with his previous comments over "smashing Theresa May back on her heels" it is very hard to make the argument that you are the "competent" candidate, when you are continuously getting yourself mired in gaffes and controversies.

It was not that Corbyn had a brilliant performance today. His answers were littered with platitudes and he seemed at times to be living in an alternate reality. Asked repeatedly about which of his parliamentary critics he had reached out to, he replied that he had worked with John McDonnell. If this is what Corbyn describes as "reaching out" to critics, then there seems little hope of the party coming together after this race. His response to questions about the abuse of Labour MPs by his supporters were unconvincing. Corbyn was also visibly irritable at times. Interrupted by Smith at one point, Corbyn's voice rose to a rather comical falsetto as he told his rival to "let him him finish".

...

Instead Labour members are left with a choice between two leaders, neither of whom seem likely to win the next general election, but at least one of which seems like the real deal. Faced with a choice between an authentic but flawed incumbent and a little known, but questionable imitation, the majority of Labour members will almost certainly opt for the former.

once they've lost this election Blue Labour can pitch Smith as a conciliatory gesture to the left that's been shoved back in their faces and get on with the job of manufacturing some kind of Mandelson/Campbell/Terminator hybrid

i mean party unity blah blah blah but there's no dealing with these people, they're cunts

I think Mcdonell was one of a short list of people that Corbyn mentioned reaching out to, rather than being the only one. I did wonder what his name was doing among them cos I thought they were pretty unified.

The next stage will be heavy on the betrayal narrative - in eschewing electability Corbynites have consigned the working class to another decade at least of punitive Tory rule.

Obviously poking holes in this argument is a piece of piss but that won't stop them hammering it.

if i am going to be lectured on the plight of the working class it had better not be coming from a bunch of middle class Tory wets

99% sure Corbyn does know who ant and dec are, but pretended not to so his enemies would clown themselves

Now that Smith wants to get ISIS around the discussion table is he going to appeal to would be UKIPers as much?

Think I drifted away from concentrating on the show when that was on.

You're not from the UK are you, Stevo? I'm asking because your interest in this appears to be a bit anthropological and slightly disconnected.

Smith has unequivocally come out in support of a second referendum on EU membership which certainly isn't the strategy I'd choose if I was gunning for the would-be UKIP vote.

I'm from The UK, London area. Been living abroad for years though.

I thought some of the stuff he was saying a few weeks ago was supposed to be appealing to that group. Stuff about patriotism he was bringing up in NEwsnight interviews etc. But yeah the 2nd referendum thing is likely to be seen as pretty contradictory but he does seem to be all over the place anyway.

try to watch a bit of bbc debate thing but very distracted by the oddly wrinkled forehead of owen smith

that's what a lifetime of fighting for socialism does to a man

Seemed like Smith was trying to appeal to as many people as possible to get as many votes as possible. & not making sure what he said to appeal to some didn't alienate others.
I couldn't see the point of the sense of belonging to a place/ patriotism thing he tried on Newsnight 2 or 3 weeks back other than to appeal to UKIP floating voters once the party ended. Which looked like a possibility at the time, before their leadership election started. I think he was saying similar things elsewhere at the time. Does sometimes seem to be hurling things at a wall to see what sticks.
Obviously getting down with ISIS doesn't. Wonder what floating vote that was aimed at?

"Corbyn's supporters all love terrorists, yeah? Well have I got a treat for them..."

He has subsequently said that ISIS shouldn't be involved in talks until they have "renounced violence" so...lol.

Obviously good journalists would press him on whether renouncing violence should be a prerequisite for Syrian rebel groups to be involved in talks, whether Al-Nusra should be participating - which is more realistic, etc, but there doesn't seem much point. As i think someone said, it's an attempt to look 'reasonable' without actually having an idea of what your policy might be should you be called upon to enact it.

Corbyn has seemed more competent in the last few weeks - getting good reviews of his education policy in The Guardian, highlighting endemic failures in transport, etc - but idk if it's going to last.

the Zoe Williams piece in the Graun about his education plans was very good, a policy that deserves the hard sell.

it really doesn't seem to occur to Smith that a apocalyptic war of annihilation can't really be conducted in a non-violent manner, once again he shows himself to be a complete waste of a public school education.

Behind all the bluster he doesn't seem to understand much about the world. One of his activists phoned me yesterday and I sort of felt sorry for the guy. There is something quite sad and naive about people who are so easily impressed with politicians and give them so much of their time, when it seems so obvious that they are not good people.

https://medium.com/mosquito-ridge/the-sound-of-blairite-silence-aed2ef726c8a#.wub6zrou3

Paul Mason so ymmv but it looks a fairly honest precis of what those loveable ol' moderates have been up to lately

"Since key Blairite nabobs were seen running in Angela Eagle’s office during her short-lived leadership bid, and since Eagle has given way to Smith as a “unity candidate”, it would be logical to ask: what does Owen Smith think of the Blairite right and its project. What’s Owen’s relationship to Progress, Saving Labour and Labour Tomorrow?

But nobody asks it. Not the media. Not the TV anchors, because they’re too busy spitting the word “Trotskyist” and “antisemite” into the faces of pro-Corbyn interviewees."

more Danczuk news

A group of Labour Party members who were kicked out of the party for 'bullying' Simon Danczuk are appealing for their case to be reopened after the Rochdale MP was arrested in Spain.

Back in 2009, Simon Danczuk accused a group of local Labour members of circulating a 'nonsense' accusation that he had hit Karen - then his girlfriend - on an earlier holiday in Spain.

They said Mr Danczuk’s position as Labour's candidate at the 2010 General Election was ‘untenable’ - but he accused them of bullying.

The panel decided Mr Danczuk was the victim of an effort to have him deselected and said the group were guilty of circulating false and malicious allegations.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/rochdale-seven-simon-danczuk-appeal-11772205

i wonder wot do people "on the right of the labour party" make of owen smith's avowed interventionalism and commitment to tax-and-spend ? assuming they're not just "give me anyone who isn't jeremy corbyn and then we can sort them out or get shot of them and stick in someone we like"

― conrad, Sunday, 14 August 2016 20:06 (5 days ago) Permalink

wonder why i wondered bout this to be honest

forgot you posted that! pertinent to the Mason piece, yeah

sometimes I forget to remember to be as cynical as it seems one must be

That Mason piece is great, he is totally spot on about the complete lack of media scrutiny about Smith's laughable socialist posturing and his complete lack of a Road to Damascus moment from his previous position. Never seen a more hollow placeholder, hence the ridic ISIS remark - it is hard to keep up the charade when you truly don't believe in anything other than attaining power at any cost.

When you allow Jeremy Corbyn of all people to make you look soft on terrorism then Theresa May is likely to tear you to pieces.

Just read that the conference in September may be in question because of security. May be cancelled because of issues with the security firm they're using being in dispute with a union and this after they stopped using the previous firm because of its activity in Israel.

been reading andy beckett's book on the seventies lately & then watched hour-long bbc doc on youtube about healey.

things never really change in the labour party do they

Corbyn, Boma Ye

Sadiq has thrown his weight behind Owen - headline is that Owen could win Gen Election. Pissing in the wind.

Does he have any form of broad appeal? Or any form of appeal at all?

In the wake of last week's gaffe too would think people would be slower in coming forward to support him.