Jeremy Corbyn vs Angela Eagle

Polly Toynbee makes a good point:

'But there are reasons why Corbyn supporters should also be pleased with this judgment. In the recent party election for constituency places on the NEC, the Corbyn slate swept the board – so the new NEC that takes over in September has just tilted in Corbyn’s favour. In future, those who went to the courts to protest at an NEC decision will be glad the court has decreed that the NEC is the “guardian of the constitution”. And so it should be.'

people keep saying corbyn's preferred nec candidates swept the board etc but weren't four of the six re-elected so there are perhaps two more supporters and two fewer let's call them attackers out of the 30 or so members? maybe that does represent a decisive tilt

I've seen quite a few media-ish people (for want of a better term) completely give up on Corbyn to the point where they're fighting eggs on Twitter and calling those who haven't repudiated him 'cult members'. Since I haven't seen one example of the coup people/Eagle/Smith being any better than the current leader, plus *really shit* at coups, I am not one of those people.

― corbyn-based life form (suzy), Friday, August 12, 2016 4:07 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

In a lot of those cases they tend to be people in their 40s who had their best years under New Labour (and/or just before it). It's very difficult not to read their attitude as middle-aged journalists circling the wagons because the younger generation has rejected their entire approach.

― Matt DC, Friday, August 12, 2016 4:11 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

most of the hysterical obsession I've seen around this situation has been from these people, not corbyn supporters. their refusal to engage with why people still support JC is wilful but i guess if you scream "cult!" or "trots!" or "misogynists!" at every turn you don't have to do any self-reflection

xp
Rhea Wolfson was the Momentum candidate that the PLP tried to prevent from standing so I just voted for her. In my ignorance I didn't know anything about the other 5 tbh

Some young-ish people have given up on Corbyn after being positive about him last year because of his media handling or the useless MPs he tried to work with turning his back on him and spreading bullcrap about his incompetence - not saying there aren't issues, but its more likely these are spread on both sides. Plus his perf at the ref campaign has stuck. There is a vague 'he should've done more' without actually saying what that is. Maybe if he had stood with Cameron, acted the subordinate enough times. Idiots.

Some of them voted for Yvette and Burnham in the first place anyway - they'll vote Owen now. JC's line of respecting people's decision as compared with Owen's promise of a 2nd referendum might be their major difference - and I'd say many of JC's supporters are pro-Europe.

"Why do people prefer this obvious no-hoper over your guys?" is the more pertinent question.

Like it shouldn't be beyond the realms of anyone's imagination to understand why people of 18-25 or so don't believe that the last Labour government created a wonderful Britain that enhanced everyone's life chances.

What kind of numbers joined Labour before the cut-off date - I can recall reading that there were significant numbers that joined after the last leadership election and before late december.

I do think Corbyn's performance re: Brexit was weak but the whole "he's a closet Brexiter I can TELL by looking at his EYES" thing is deeply sinister, and seeing people castigate him more for the debacle than the actual Tories who got us into it really is telling about their prejudices. You'd think Corbyn single-handedly ushered us out of the EU - while the same people will hail May as a sensible pair of hands and also a victory for feminism bc she's a woman.

I will say that Corbyn was tremendously unlucky, in the context of his long-term goal of a grassroots movement, that the most gigantic short-term issue turned out to be Europe of all things

Corbyn's referendum numbers were fine and just the same as Sturgeon's who didn't take any flak. More a case of giving an untruth currency by repeating it than a poor performance. Listening to Chuka high-fiving IDS on R4 a day before the vote was a poor performance though.

comparison with jc's performance and sturgeon's are not that appropriate because a) there is a small but not insignificant portion of snp members/voters who are p much fundamentalist nationalists and have always opposed the eu and b) the party also has an old labouresque, left-wing, bennite opposition to the eu (aka corbyn's position until a couple of years ago)

snp probably as eurosceptic as the tories tbh

A big part of the problem with Corbyn is his apparent tendency to just say whatever happens to be on his mind at any given time without thinking through the consequences and that 70% thing in the run up to the Brexit vote really fucked him.

Problem is that a lot of the traditional Labour vote was also implacably opposed to the EU (and not really prepared to listen to Corbyn in the first place) - he could have performed like Martin Luther King and it wouldn't have made much difference to the result. Especially as the very large Southern shire Tory Brexit vote is consistently underplayed and ignored in these discussions. But looking like you give a shit does actually help.

Owen Smith could have chosen to make the EU the central focus of his campaign and it would have offered him his best chance of winning, but he hasn't. Possibly because he knows that post-victory it isn't an approach that's going to galvanise Northern seats flirting with UKIP.

Yeah but this assumption that Labour voters outside of London should have a natural predisposition towards Remain or just needed their arms twisting is completely wrong. There was a lot of populist bigotry in the air during the campaign, it is always easier for the demagogues to get votes when people are looking for scapegoats for why their communities are crime ridden, poor and dysfunctional.

was a good piece
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/entryism-and-corbyn-supporters.html

people keep saying corbyn's preferred nec candidates swept the board etc but weren't four of the six re-elected so there are perhaps two more supporters and two fewer let's call them attackers out of the 30 or so members? maybe that does represent a decisive tilt

― conrad, Friday, August 12, 2016 5:41 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Dennis Skinner is standing down from the NEC in October and is being replaced by an anti-Corbyn rep, so I think NEC election has only given Corbyn a net increase of one supporter. my understanding is that Corbyn has a narrow majority on the NEC but some of that support is "soft" (from union reps mostly, I think) and can't necessarily be relied on

A student at the University of Bristol has faced disciplinary procedures after telling Labour MP Thangam Debbonaire to “get in the sea” on Twitter.

Ms Debbonaire responded to the tweet sent by student Verity Phillips on 15 July, saying: “This person has just told me to drown - I believe that is a threat to kill.”

“I expect @BristolUni to deal with this,” she added in another tweet.

“Get in the sea” is a phrase popularised by the comedy writer Andy Dawson via the @getinthesea Twitter account, recently spun off into a book of the same title. It’s used as a splenetic insult, intended to humorously highlight perceived idiocies with deliberately over-the-top vitriol - “highlighting people and things that need to get in the f*****g sea,” as its Twitter profile says.

to be fair it stopped being funny about 18 months ago

Once Dave Miliband tried to shoot a paparazzi with a banana, very funny lot these Blairites.

allow me to clarify i in no way condone get in the sea

if "a person has told me to drown" really means "man that's unfunny shit" fair play to her

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpxRDVEXgAQ0eyH.jpg

"the verification process for new members and registered supporters, or "Trot hunting" as Labour moderates have dubbed it, had thrown up around 10,000 suspected entryists by late last week"

lol at the idea that there are 10.000 trotskyites in the whole of Britain, never mind amongst recently signed up Labour party members + registered supporters

comedy writer Andy Dawson

never knew this was the name of the perp, certainly never knew that was the occupation

slightly heartened by the fact that neither this cunt nor his twitter account appear to have a wikipedia

I do think Corbyn's performance re: Brexit was weak but the whole "he's a closet Brexiter I can TELL by looking at his EYES" thing is deeply sinister, and seeing people castigate him more for the debacle than the actual Tories who got us into it really is telling about their prejudices. You'd think Corbyn single-handedly ushered us out of the EU - while the same people will hail May as a sensible pair of hands and also a victory for feminism bc she's a woman.

― lex pretend, Friday, 12 August 2016 17:17 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this.

That said, I do still feel uncomfortable about the weakness of his "7/10" answer on The Last Leg (or whatever it was).

What is this clamour for used car salesman talking shite on here about?

This witch hunt is creepy. Is the idea to purge the party of anybody who might vote Corbyn or something?

Also somebody elsewhere suggested that anybody who crowd funded the membership court cases might well find themselves blacklisted. Which wouldn't surprise me.
I had hoped that this mindlessness had a finite end. Hoped that the election in the NEC might end it. But 6 people changing of 33 means less likelihood. Has the changeover already happened or when does it happen.

Does Labour have monolithic aims or is it a collection of different forces?
JUst reading through the newspaper clip above and thinking the premise taht one could have a witch hunt about difference in opinion on aims and goals wasa bit weird. I thought Labour had tended to have a broad spectrum and probably still does and will continue to since i don't think the Corbyn followers are exactly clones.

So what on grounds is this going on. Or is this something that most people from most perspectives are asking anyway?
& there was me thinking that Labour might actually be returning to some level of integrity and therefore electability. So nice taht this is the point at which those supposedly seeking to unite the party choose to hobble it. Great way of attracting new voters by making sure that those who've actually been moved enough to want to join don't get a vote.

Also really surprised to hear that Teresa May is now the most popular politician in the country and even appeals to 20% of the Labour membership, but have heard it said on BBC News channel with some frequency over the last few days.

Labour has always been a coalition of different forces but has had an ongoing myth, accepted by a lot of the centre left as well as the centrists, that 99% of members agree on 99% of issues but disagree on pace of change, practicality and the need for compromise. That has largely fallen apart and the collapse has been accelerated by the venomous reaction to Corbyn. It has been interesting to see a lot of younger, Corbyn-ambivalent centre-leftists wake up to the realisation that a lot of the party genuinely, passionately hates the idea of left-wing politics.

News has just said that this membership court case isn't being pursued to the Supreme Court. Not sure what good it would have done.

Must be a lot of disgruntled would be supporters right now, but may have been from the other side anyway.
So when does the party split?

& how can the Conservative Party be popular?

Well, for a start, they're not the Labour party. Actually that's about it, but it's a low bar.

i wonder wot do people "on the right of the labour party" make of owen smith's avowed interventionalism and commitment to tax-and-spend ? assuming they're not just "give me anyone who isn't jeremy corbyn and then we can sort them out or get shot of them and stick in someone we like"

*market interventionalism

I don't hear many from PLP talking about his "radical" policies, probably because they know if he wins he will put them into his magician's hat and change them into something else or just use the old "difficult decisions" mitigation to totally shitcan them.

Yeah, I'm torn between "A difference Jeremy Corbyn has made is that his opponent in the leadership campaign can openly favour 'equality of outcome'" and "It doesn't make any difference except as a collar he'll shake out of if the Tories try to tie him to it"

Margerat Beckett is always good value for reminding me why I didn't vote for Labour for 20+ years, I'm guessing she wouldn't be complaining if Smith suddenly gained a fan club.

They just had the televised debate between Corbyn and Smith on BBC News channel. Had the audience split up into 3 sections in the beginning Corbyn, undecided and Smith. Bulk of the undecided were won over to Corbyn at the end, they had that group move over to whichever side they'd been swung to by the debate. Some stayed where they were, a small number went over to the Smith area and loads to Corbyn.
Not sure how accurate or whatever that is and how much influence it might have on anybody else anywhere. & presume you'd have to be interested enough to watch in the first place to see it anyway.
But nice anyway I guess.

Fascinated by who might really be undecided - not meant to sound critical or sneery but still kinda amazed they may exist. I'd have thought they'd all be previous Corbyn-voters though (and based on the idea pretty much every new member joined because of his leadership).

xpost I'll bet that's the last time the BBC do that.

Did wonder how undecided that group was. thought there might be something in the look of getting up en masse to show sudden support for Corbyn but then thought what would be the point.

Did I hear right that the election forms or whatever the medium for election are are going out on next Monday and the election will be about a month later.

Also interesting if i heard that right, the debate was in Nottingham which was mainly 7 Labour wards and was still 70% Leave.

Trying to think if anything really stood out about the debate beyond me disliking Smith.

maybe when he was asked to what extent Smith felt personally responsible for conflict in the party and immediately started talking about Corbyn's faults and not answering the question. he was supposed to be giving a mark out of a hundred for how much responsibility he felt with 100 being totally responsible. He eventually came out with 3. Corbyn asked the same question answered saying that he wasn't prepared to put a figure on it but that he had attempted to reach out as much as possible, but was being accused of not answering the question because he wouldn't give a figure. While he had actually immediately given an answer, unlike Smith, somebody in the audience that I would assume was a Smithite was calling out for him to answer the question.

Also interesting to note that an audience member was talking about lack of respect being given by Smithite supporters in local meetings. Since it seems that it's the Corbyn supporters being accused of thuggery, notably for things that have nothing to do with them.

The beeb's anti-Corbyn's basis is a bit strange when you consider he is far more likely to enshrine the rights of a public service broadcaster than anyone else on the political scene right now.

Anti-Corbyn BIAS

The Beeb's anti-Corbyn bias might not be that strange given Jon Pienaar's daughter is on the Smith campaign team.

No one senior at the bbc cares about public service broadcasting though

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37104864

did smith find out about corbyn negotiating with sinn fein and try to modernise it

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/08/17/bbc-labour-leadership-hustings-jeremy-corbyn-victory

There was little evidence to support Smith's theory in today's hustings either. Throughout the debate he seemed subdued and lacking any obvious passion. On almost all the major issues, with the exception of nuclear weapons, he said he agreed with his party leader. 'Vote for me. I'm just like Corbyn except I like nukes' does not seem to me to be an obviously winning strategy.

At one point the two candidates were asked whether they would hold negotiations with Isis. Corbyn wobbled and said that he would like "proximity talks" before adding that he would not have them "round the table". Smith on the other hand said that he would. At the time of writing, the comments are causing a major outrage with even the Conservative Party making a rare intervention into Labour's internal debate. As with his previous comments over "smashing Theresa May back on her heels" it is very hard to make the argument that you are the "competent" candidate, when you are continuously getting yourself mired in gaffes and controversies.

It was not that Corbyn had a brilliant performance today. His answers were littered with platitudes and he seemed at times to be living in an alternate reality. Asked repeatedly about which of his parliamentary critics he had reached out to, he replied that he had worked with John McDonnell. If this is what Corbyn describes as "reaching out" to critics, then there seems little hope of the party coming together after this race. His response to questions about the abuse of Labour MPs by his supporters were unconvincing. Corbyn was also visibly irritable at times. Interrupted by Smith at one point, Corbyn's voice rose to a rather comical falsetto as he told his rival to "let him him finish".

...

Instead Labour members are left with a choice between two leaders, neither of whom seem likely to win the next general election, but at least one of which seems like the real deal. Faced with a choice between an authentic but flawed incumbent and a little known, but questionable imitation, the majority of Labour members will almost certainly opt for the former.

once they've lost this election Blue Labour can pitch Smith as a conciliatory gesture to the left that's been shoved back in their faces and get on with the job of manufacturing some kind of Mandelson/Campbell/Terminator hybrid

i mean party unity blah blah blah but there's no dealing with these people, they're cunts

I think Mcdonell was one of a short list of people that Corbyn mentioned reaching out to, rather than being the only one. I did wonder what his name was doing among them cos I thought they were pretty unified.

The next stage will be heavy on the betrayal narrative - in eschewing electability Corbynites have consigned the working class to another decade at least of punitive Tory rule.

Obviously poking holes in this argument is a piece of piss but that won't stop them hammering it.

if i am going to be lectured on the plight of the working class it had better not be coming from a bunch of middle class Tory wets

99% sure Corbyn does know who ant and dec are, but pretended not to so his enemies would clown themselves