2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

i think that TPM reader is a bit off, but i do think the wright stuff isn't going to go away very easily.

sure, it cancels out the muslim rumor because it draws attention to his church, but it certainly plays well into 1.) the bogus obama-anti-patriot-anti-america narrative. sure, all those things of that narrative on their own are meaningless (the flag lapel pin, etc.), but presented altogether, it's a decent smear that might get a lot of ground; 2.) it also takes one of obama's appeals - the call to move bast bitter race antagonisms - and challenges it (wright as "angry black man", etc).

(obviously i don't buy into any of these bogus narratives, but i think some of this stuff will come back to haunt him)

Charlie Black: I don't think Sen. McCain wants to get in the middle of a discussion about Sen. Obama's former pastor, or his faith. He believes that people who endorse you, people who befriend you, are entitled to their own views, but you are not personally held accountable. That when someone endorses you or befriends you, they are embracing your views - the candidate's views - not the other way around.

-- suzy, Friday, March 14, 2008 6:07 PM

Yeah I think homie doesn't wanna get into the "whose endorser said more offensive shit" contest. Hagee is a fuckwit he hasn't even made an effort to distance himself from.

He has to thow him under the bus and then back up over him again

This is exactly what he must NOT do if he wishes to retain his appeal. The punitive one-upsmanship fed by cynical media and demagogic populism in this country is revolting. We are or should be smart enought to criticize some of Wright's more egregious statements without demonizing him or tossing the baby out with the bathwater and if Obama stoops to the level of Bush or Clinton, it will lessen his appeal.

multi-x-post (is there any other kind?)

There doesn't need to fit into a larger narrative, because competing narratives can always be floated by surrogates outside the campaign. This isn't as effective as having it in the stump speech and repeated endlessly, but a competing "scandal" narrative can be picked up by the press, get legs, and do a fairish amount of harm among the undecided.

Most presidential campaigns will find a way to get every scrap of bad news about their opponent into the media by some avenue. If they can't make it stick, they'll just drop it and go for the next mafia-hit piece to see if it does any better.

the fact that Wright is retiring (this month? next?) should help I think

He retired in February.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

Why are people so offended by what he said? Maybe some of you could give some insight - it all seems perfectly rational to me. I guess the "gov't created AIDS to kill off the black man" conspiracy theory type stuff can be pretty off-putting, but it's not like he's the first person to ever say this. And it really isn't that farfetched! The whole "gov't planted crack in black neigborhoods and funded drug trafficking" .. um, this is pretty much historical fact, no? "God Damn America", taken out of context, is pretty inflammatory and offensive I suppose, but in the context of his sermon it makes sense - even if you don't agree. American foreign policy in the mid-east and support of Israel's (illegal) occupation leads to terrorist attacks on american soil! Blowback! None of this is radical, it isn't a stretch at all. We were not attacked by "evil men who hate our freedom" (they are evil, yes, but there is more to it than cultural differences). No one is blaming the 9/11 victims for 9/11, that would be absurd...

The whole "gov't planted crack in black neigborhoods and funded drug trafficking" .. um, this is pretty much historical fact, no?

Planting crack in black neighborhoods is a fact?

Yeah I think homie doesn't wanna get into the "whose endorser said more offensive shit" contest.

^^^OTM

I knew this would become an "issue" - obviously Obama has to appeal to everyone and Wright's views aren't exactly mainstream, therefore he's a liability - but I'm still kind of taken aback by how people are reacting to this.

Planting crack in black neighborhoods is a fact?

Yes - see SJ Mercury News investigative journalism pieces in the early- mid-90s with direct evidence of the CIA importing heroin into LA

(er not heroin, CRACK)

(CIA heroin stuff happened in the 70s in the Bay Area - shipping heroin back to the US from 'Nam)

I'll check it out.

I'm trying to find the info for you.

do you have any links? Not because I doubt you – my mom called last night shouting OMIGOD CRAZY BLACK MAN SPEWING CONSPIRACY NONSENSE.

Webb's Dark Alliance article series

and the whole AIDS thing, I mean have you heard of the Tuskegee Experiment? The Gov't purposely infecting black people with Syphillis?

He retired in February.

huh! so much for that theory. I think I must have read the "retiring next month" bit in a story that came out in January when Wright first said the Bill Clinton comments

sad fact: a lot of people have a hard time understanding why black people may not have a wholly positive outlook on the united states!

i agree that this is a serious political problem for Obama, and he has to figure out a way to minimize it. i'd like to give every american a 'history of race in america' class but that isn't going to do it, i'm afraid.

But conservative evangelical leaders can say that 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina were divine retribution for the immorality of New York and New Orleans, respectively?

and the whole AIDS thing, I mean have you heard of the Tuskegee Experiment? The Gov't purposely infecting black people with Syphillis?

The rumor and fantasy are starting to fly fast and furious here. It's a long stretch from the Tuskegee Experiment (which didn't infect anyone with syphilis, it involved not treating syphilis) to the idea that the government created AIDS.

FYI the San Jose Mercury News retracted a lot of Webb's reporting and backed away from the stories under heavy pressure. doesn't mean it was all not true, but just saying. I don't really know the whole backstory behind it.

I'm not passing it off as fact, I'm just saying that it isn't farfetched when you take history into account.

and the whole AIDS thing, I mean have you heard of the Tuskegee Experiment? The Gov't purposely infecting black people with Syphillis?

Yeah, this I knew.

I don't personally believe it but I can see why some people would

He has to thow him under the bus and then back up over him again

___________________________________

This is exactly what he must NOT do if he wishes to retain his appeal.

This back-and-forth is a good illustration of the box Obama is in because of Wright's comments.

I'm not passing it off as fact, I'm just saying that it isn't farfetched when you take history into account.

I think it is farfetched.

whatever

Some Webb/San Jose Mercury News postscript info: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0818-33.htm

Yeah, this I knew.

Government never infected anyone with syphilis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_experiment

I think what Obama's campaign could do is push exposure of Rev. Wright's more positive, uplifting sermons (which, I am certain, eclipse the negative, conspiratorial ones in number by a huge proportion) and push exposure of Sen. Obama's own speeches made to church congregations.

o. nate, i hope you're not implying that not treating syphilis is somehow more defensible than deliberate infection.

He's not implying that at all, dude.

fair enough. but i think it's pretty fruitless toil to examine all of the claims made by rev. wright for verifiability, as none of that is going to reduce the controversy. the larger theme -- that african americans in this country still face systematic & institutional oppression in addition to quotidian, interpersonal bigotry -- is really the more important theme here.

elmotm

Q: I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all over the wire today (from an ABC News story), a statement that your pastor (the Rev. Jeremiah Wright of Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's South Side) made in a sermon in 2003 that instead of singing "God Bless America," black people should sing a song essentially saying "God Damn America."

A: I haven't seen the line. This is a pastor who is on the brink of retirement who in the past has made some controversial statements. I profoundly disagree with some of these statements.

Q: What about this particular statement?

A: Obviously, I disagree with that. Here is what happens when you just cherry-pick statements from a guy who had a 40-year career as a pastor. There are times when people say things that are just wrong. But I think it's important to judge me on what I've said in the past and what I believe.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/14/jeremiah-wright-obamas-_n_91555.html

"anyone who believes that african americans do not face institutional oppression should be reminded of the efforts to disenfranchise black voters in florida in the 2000 elections"

^^ proposed 2-for-1 wright/florida talking point for obama

I totally agree elmo (lol). My question is - why does that offend people? Is it just the way he said it? Do they not want to face the (obvious) truth? This whole idea of "race doesn't matter/ we are all Americans" is fine and dandy, and it would be nice of that were the case.. but it really isn't. Obviously. Right?

wait, why is everyone giving o. nate a pass?

i dont think its paranoid for many black americans to be suspicious of the origins of AIDS when it 1. disproportionately affects the african-american community and 2. its a well-known fact that the american gov't had experiments where they sat in a lab watching people suffer from syphilis untreated.

sorry that i don't see 'infecting with syphilis' and 'not treating syphilis' as being all that different, but they're not

and its not like the tuskegee experiment, which happened in some of yr parents' lifetimes btw, is some isolated incident

i dont think its good to encourage the idea that AIDS was a government conspiracy but no, its not all that farfetched

Perhaps we should move the government created AIDS conspiracy theories to another thread.

If Rev. Wright had simply said "African Americans face discrimination", there would be no controversy. Trying to equate his more outlandish statements with that uncontroversial statement is deliberately missing the point.

"race doesn't matter/ we are all Americans"

The fudge here is that some folks will hear it that way and other people will hear it more as nationalism trumps racial differences.

o. nate, what is the "point," in your opinion?

The point is, is Obama doing enough to distance himself from Wright's statements?

no, i mean -- what is the "point" of rev. wrights statements?

I have no idea what his point was.

if you mean that in terms of 'in order to win the election,' no i dont think he is and i imagine his advisers agree and will presumably do something about it at some point now that this is a media firestorm

if you really think he should HAVE to 'distance' himself from them, i think thats nuts; all he SHOULD have to do is say 'yeah AIDS probably not a conspiracy, although i understand why ...' blah blah blah but of course thats no politically feasible because we live in a country with a large number of goofballs

NEWS FLASH: AMERICA HAS PERPETRATED VILE, INDEFENSIBLE ACTS AGAINST ITS OWN CITIZENS.

LATE UPDATE: AMERICANS ARE FUCKING AMNESIACS.

Sure, it has. See also: every other government that has ever existed.

Government violated basic Hippocratic oath principles with Tuskegee, however. People probably don't wanna hear about smallpox blankets either.

The problem with explaining institutionalized racism to LMC whites is they always feel like you're calling *them* bigots rather than engaging with why black people might feel badly treated 140+ years after the end of the Civil War. They reason since they're not being discriminatory to the best of their knowledge, that there should not be a problem. See also 'Michelle Obama is lucky/should be grateful' meme.