Is this anti-semitism?

well, all ethnic hatreds are different, but there is also the fear of an Islamic "rise to power" or "takeover" of Europe. Not the same kind of "behind the scenes conspiracy" fear, but definitely a power-related paranoia.

i kinda read the "islamic takeover of europe" as a kind of "barbarians at the gates" sort of thing

been seeing a lot of "je sui charlie martel" type talk in the past week...

i suppose there's a common thread of white paranoia underpinning both; in an earlier age this kind of outburst would not have been blamed on 'sharia':

https://twitter.com/roqchams/status/555432238087553024

also worth noting that a component of both is hatred of whites who are in on the conspiracy or appeasing the invader. breivik killed liberals, after all

i wonder if part of the problem is that the left's conception of post-colonialism is so superficial that they can't theorize muslims being victims of oppression in some circumstances and oppressors in others. you are either privileged or oppressed, so jews who sometimes move between categories - they have no idea how to handle them. just speaking off-the-cuff here i haven't given this idea a ton of thought.

There might be something to that, although i'd like to think that most of the left has more nuance the tendency to view people as blocs with a unified history / culture could lead in that direction.

The roots and expression of antisemitism are probably more complex but the populist scapegoating definitely overlaps in Europe, possibly less so in the US. The degree to which the tradition of antisemitism on the far right - from hardline conservatives to outright neo-Fascists - has shifted from agitating against Jewish people to agitating against Muslims, without changing philosophy, personnel or much of the rhetoric, points to that. With the growth of the far-right, in practical terms, there's a chance that there might be a leftist shift away from the abstract ideas about apportioning geopolitical blame to more practical drawing of alliances against a more solid threat.

don't those far right types basically hold that the jews are still evil but islam is a bigger problem for the moment?

I think they all do at a fundamental level but some, like the BNP, had laughably attempted to recruit Jewish / Hindu members.

It would be interesting in the French context whether the rise of the FN saw more Muslim and Jewish groups working together in opposition.

i'm not sure there is any bigotry this psychotic tbh:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/attacks-blamed-on-shape-shifting-jews/

There are times when "declare your stance on Israel" from the left feels a little like "moderate muslims must denounce the attacks" from the right.

― walid foster dulles (man alive), Wednesday, January 14, 2015 1:04 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i've never gotten that from folks "on the left" but then again i'm a hermit w/o many friends so

i think he sincerely believes that israel is the home of worldwide jewry

I'm on the fence as to whether he sincerely believes that or not, but he is definitely saying it, and I sincerely believe it is a wrong and kind of terrible thing to say or believe. I am committed to Zionism but not to the abandonment of the Diaspora, which is my home and the home of my ancestors as far back as history records. Shame on Netanyahu for denying that French Jews are fully French, that American Jews are fully American, etc. To answer the governing question of this thread, I don't think it's anti-Semitic to say that, but I think it makes common cause with anti-Semitism.

did you see the link i posted of the french jews celebrating bibi's arrival and then singing la marseillaise when he was done speaking? i thought it spoke nicely to this dichotomy of needing a homeland, but also feeling like a citizen of where you reside.

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/188225/two-scenes-from-the-grand-synagogue-of-paris

where are all the jews who are pro-israel and anti-netanyahu? i mean, i'm not opposed to the state of israel but if netanyahu came and spoke in my 'hood i'd have to resist the urge to spit on him.

i don't get the sense that bibi is significantly worse than many other PM's - even recent PM's - and a lot of the hate is personal not political

did you see the link i posted of the french jews celebrating bibi's arrival and then singing la marseillaise when he was done speaking? i thought it spoke nicely to this dichotomy of needing a homeland, but also feeling like a citizen of where you reside.

― Mordy, Wednesday, January 14, 2015 4:29 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh that is cool, I missed that, actually.

CW is he's been a more openly partisan actor in US politics than others. i suppose an israeli might say that goes both ways

I read that, Mordy, and it's just not where I am. When they say

"We are not afraid because we know, whether overtly or in a dark half-acknowledged corner of our minds, that there is one state in the world—however imperfect it is in some of its particulars—where we and our children will be welcome, and whose government will do its best to protect us, with all the force at its disposal"

The Jews, as a people, need a homeland; if I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be a Zionist. But my family and I do not personally need a homeland. At least, we don't need one beyond the one we already have. And I don't like Netanyahu or Tablet telling me what my true feelings, in a "dark half-acknowledged corner of my mind" about this are. I know what my feelings are.

where are all the jews who are pro-israel and anti-netanyahu?

Are you aware that there are millions of them living and voting in Israel?

I'm not sure what "pro-Israel" means. Is anyone who doesn't think it should just cease existing at once "pro-Israel"? If so, I am pro-Israel and anti-Netanyahu.

I wrote this on fb this morning: Ultimately the problem with Israel-agnostic Jewish American leftists is that they're too comfortable in the US. They've forgotten that not all Jews throughout the world are as safe as we are here, and they have the hubris to believe that the ways things are now are the ways they will always be. I have a ton of hakaras hatov to the US, but it's important to remember imo that living here puts you in a bit of a bubble. I think it's true - and I do buy the argument that the existence of Israel has a protective effect on Jews in the diaspora as well. It's a very complicated question because really there's only one other country in the world besides Israel where Jews live safely, en masse and it's 'coincidentally' the state that backs Israel. Idk if you live in the US and it could be you're in, idk, Belgium and you feel totally at home w/ no nervousness and need for a backup plan. But history says that - despite the unprecedented tolerance Jews have in the US (that will hopefully last forever) - it's a good thing to have a backup plan. And I say this as someone who never plans to move from the US.

At least that's how I understand the 'dark corner of the mind' assertion.

where are all the jews who are pro-israel and anti-netanyahu?
Are you aware that there are millions of them living and voting in Israel?

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, January 14, 2015 3:52 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

um, that was kind of my point. i guess that article had its own answer as to why all these french jews were cheering netanyahu. i wouldn't cheer that fucker in a million years.

it might help you to know that i am jewish.

Ultimately the problem with Israel-agnostic Jewish American leftists is that they're too comfortable in the US. They've forgotten that not all Jews throughout the world are as safe as we are here, and they have the hubris to believe that the ways things are now are the ways they will always be. I have a ton of hakaras hatov to the US, but it's important to remember imo that living here puts you in a bit of a bubble

that probably describes me pretty well, actually.

(who thinks the jewish homeland could just be around Avenue A)

But history says that - despite the unprecedented tolerance Jews have in the US (that will hopefully last forever) - it's a good thing to have a backup plan.

I do live in the United States. I don't think Israel is the backup plan for us. I think we're the backup plan for them.

Or another way to put it: what's more likely? That the US of 2050 is an anti-Semitic swamp where my children and grandchildren can't live? Or that the Israel of 2050 is an Orthodox-dominated religious state where my children and grandchildren can't live?

I would flip that and say that it's troubling, if sort of understandable, that Jewish existence should be predicated on feeling threatened as the default mode of being. And I think that the context of the holocaust is causing the treatment of incidents that do not actually threaten the existence of Jews as a community in various European countries as though they do. In other words, some racist attacks against Jews is not the same thing as being on the verge of another holocaust. Some racist attacks against Jews will always happen. Some racist attacks against Jews happen within Israel too. I don't accept at all the idea that this "troubling rise in antisemitism" is swelling to some inevitable crest in mass atrocity, in fact I find little evidence of such.

um, that was kind of my point.

Sorry, now I get what you meant, pardon my snark...

I do live in the United States. I don't think Israel is the backup plan for us. I think we're the backup plan for them.

I think it works both ways (don't put eggs in one basket) but I can't predict the future and I don't know if either of those events are likely. I think we're really bad at long-thinking + projection and we assume that the way things are now is the way they'll always be.

Can't the same be said for Israelis?

The famous example are Jews in Berlin who in 1934 said "oh no, we are at home here, this will never happen, etc"

xp what do you mean? i agree, all humans have this shortcoming. we think we can predict the future but we're really really bad at it.

I mean Israelis are also guilty of thinking "we can maintain this forever, we can keep Israel a Jewish majority state and totally safe," not to mention "we can keep the occupation going as long as we need to, we can keep expanding settlements as needed," etc.

I think it works both ways (don't put eggs in one basket)

But the point is that this is exactly the opposite of the Netanyahu/Tablet line, which holds that Israel and Israel alone is the guarantor of my grandchildren's safety.

The famous example are Jews in Berlin who in 1934 said "oh no, we are at home here, this will never happen, etc"

― Mordy, Wednesday, January 14, 2015 5:04 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

If the United States elects a president who has written an openly paranoid and anti-semitic memoir, I will probably change my tune.

xp right we're all guilty of it. when liberal zionists promote a pal state in the west bank and an israeli withdrawal from the occupation, they can't guarantee that the wb won't become gaza 2.0. they can't even guarantee that it will lead to be results for any of the actors involved than indefinite occupation.

But the point is that this is exactly the opposite of the Netanyahu/Tablet line, which holds that Israel and Israel alone is the guarantor of my grandchildren's safety.

...which in turn he uses to give credibility to /his/ vision of israel, which is as a much more closed, bigoted, religious state than what it has been in the past.

lead to better* results

If the United States elects a president who has written an openly paranoid and anti-semitic memoir, I will probably change my tune.

ok but once that dude gets elected you can't just set up a jewish state really quick. it has to already exist.

the other argument is kinda the more incredulous one bc if you look at jewish history it's more likely to get killed/expelled from a country than it is to stay there indefinitely. i do believe that the US is a unique case but not enough to say, 'ok, US is safe we can get rid of israel now'

also it's weird to me for someone who is otherwise very, very critical of the US and believes the US is capable of horrific acts against its own citizens to believe that it is a guarantee forever of jewish safety.

This breaks down the data behind the YouGov poll by region, political orientation and age:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/921pn4p2fh/CampaignAgainstAntisemitismResults_MergedFile_W.pdf

Does suggest antisemitism is stronger in Conservatives / UKIP supporters but obvious commonalities across the spectrum.

the other argument is kinda the more incredulous one bc if you look at jewish history it's more likely to get killed/expelled from a country than it is to stay there indefinitely. i do believe that the US is a unique case but not enough to say, 'ok, US is safe we can get rid of israel now'

― Mordy, Wednesday, January 14, 2015 4:18 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also it's weird to me for someone who is otherwise very, very critical of the US and believes the US is capable of horrific acts against its own citizens to believe that it is a guarantee forever of jewish safety.

― Mordy, Wednesday, January 14, 2015 4:19 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

see, i rather agree with you about this, and am skeptical of the idea of the U.S. as a classless/colorless/neutral meritocracy as much as i'm skeptical about that idea of any other country. otoh, given this, i think it's unfair to label people who agree with the statement "Jews' loyalty to Israel makes them less loyal to Israel than other British people" (see SV's post) anti-semitic. that's damn near a truism!

i don't think there's any reason Jews shouldn't, as an ethical matter, be less loyal to the countries they live in than a Jewish state. but if one of your reasons for advocating the existence of a Jewish state is that you don't trust the non-Jewish country you live in not to "kill/expel" you for being Jewish, it really stretches the meaning of the word "loyalty" beyond any meaning to say that you're just as loyal to the non-Jewish state as anyone who isn't loyal to Israel.

(xp) Also suggests London is most anti-Semitic and Scotland least!

xp i guess i don't think that loyalty is a zero-sum game.

the anti-immigrant/nationalist tradition of insinuating that an ethnic/~foreign~ minority cares more about their home country whatever that means than their country of residence where they may have also been born and that is to the detriment of the country in which they reside

do people who think heaven's cool care about the earth

i don't think there's any reason Jews shouldn't, as an ethical matter, be less loyal to the countries they live in than a Jewish state. but if one of your reasons for advocating the existence of a Jewish state is that you don't trust the non-Jewish country you live in not to "kill/expel" you for being Jewish, it really stretches the meaning of the word "loyalty" beyond any meaning to say that you're just as loyal to the non-Jewish state as anyone who isn't loyal to Israel.

― een, Thursday, 15 January 2015 12:12 (2 hours ago) Permalink

Actually I would say you're the one stretching the meaning of the word "loyalty" -- fear seems like a separate concept to me.