2008 Primaries Thread

It doesn't matter how many times you say that Shakey, civics classes have brainwashed the masses.

not voting is just about the dumbest thing you can do

The Dems and Repubs resurrect Hitler and Stalin in 2012; what does Mr. Que do?

"hold the nose and vote fer Joze"

morbs that would be a good comparison if hillary clinton or john mccain resembled hitler or stalin in any way

your morals are so pure they might as well be invisible

I don't give a shit about whether people vote for the two main parties or for someone else but, given that voting is the current mechanism for registering your opinion on governmental policy, not voting to me means you've abdicated all rights to complain about or disagree with what decisions elected officials make.

If you voted for Nader, you have every right to complain about the President. If you didn't vote, shut the fuck up.

xp: I knew that was comin', I'm sorry it was you though.

I'm coming to think civil disobedience (and judiciously applied violence) are looking like much more efficient mechanisms than voting.

From Ned's linked blog:

The Surge is responsible for the vastly improved situation in Iraq and for our consequentially improved situation globally. The other two (NB: Guantanamo and torture) are of marginal importance by comparison.

This man has a strange worldview. The Surge has "vastly improved our situation globally", but Gitmo and torture presumably have little bearing on our global situation at present?!

not voting to me means you've abdicated all rights to complain about or disagree with what decisions elected officials make.

Does this mean illegal immigrants can't complain about elected officials?

Or prisoners?

Or children? (sorry, I'll stop)

I'm coming to think civil disobedience (and judiciously applied violence)

can't have it both ways!

yeah we really stopped that iraq war dead in its tracks didn't we

sorry, i usually agree about protest and civil disobedience but its utter failure to stop the war is pretty dispiriting to me

as for judiciously applied violence, uh good luck with that

you guys, you're so cute

ha ha i should qualify what i said above with the fact that i lived in a state in 2000 that was gonna go for bush no matter what so i voted for nader, so ha ha that ended up about as good as voting for Felix Frankfurter

If it's HRC v. McCain, McCain wins, it's that simple. Obama has to somehow pull off the Dem. nomination.

bill i'm curious -- do you say that because of the media dynamic, or is there something else?

G00blar: yes, yes and yes. The attendant clarifications are:

1) Illegal immigrants who become legal citizens should have their opinions listened to. I am not particularly bothered one way or the other by what happens to illegal aliens; I don't think they should be kicked out of the country but, conversely, I don't think they should have the same rights as American citizens. Immigration laws should be changed to deal with this (and no I don't have the magic answer).

2) Prisoners should have all of their rights as American citizens reinstated once they have satisfied the terms of their incarceration.

3) Children? Come on now.

dan what about the opposite argument: if you voted you shouldn't complain about bush winning. you played the game and lost.

i think if you pax taxes you should get to vote, it's kinda one of the founding principles of america

complaining: also a founding principle of america

dan what about the opposite argument: if you voted you shouldn't complain about bush winning. you played the game and lost.

how is this the "opposite" argument? Dan is saying if you didn't vote at all, STFU.

I don't understand the "well I hate both parties so I'm going to hold my breath and not vote at all." There are many local issues on your ballot that will make a difference in your everyday life. Who the president might be may not factor in your life (unless you're in the military and don't want to go to Iraq), but whether your taxes get raised to fund a freakin' ballpark or a mandate saying you can't adopt a child if you're gay should be enough to vote.

(and judiciously applied violence)
(and judiciously applied violence)
(and judiciously applied violence)
(and judiciously applied violence)
(and judiciously applied violence)
(and judiciously applied violence)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/allocryptic/hillmccain.jpg

y u do dat

now do one with the omfgoggles dog and me

I'm coming to think civil disobedience (and judiciously applied violence) are looking like much more efficient mechanisms than voting.

CIA to immediately begin surveilling Dr Morbius, plz.

I plan to vote, as always, in my local race, but to say that I should STFU for not voting for one of two awful nominees is purism of a kind I don't even have.

but, as Ned said, it's way too early.

even if you live in a solid red/blue district or state your vote still counts for the total - if enough ppl in solid blue states had opted to go for nader or not vote in 00 gore wouldn't have won the popular vote, which was of no official importance but plenty of rhetorical/cultural importance

This man has a strange worldview. The Surge has "vastly improved our situation globally", but Gitmo and torture presumably have little bearing on our global situation at present?!

-- Aimless, Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:06 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

did you even finish reading his post? or read him at all?

i mean, maybe this is corny and unrealistic, but look at the final count for 2004 - kerry lost but he got 59,028,111 and if you voted for him the 1 on the end of that big-ass number is YOURS

me and Alfred are on the same page here

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see i don't think that's corny. but i do think that not voting for a president--at all--because you don't like the candidates, think they are awful, etc. make you sound like a whiny five year old. you're never going to have a "perfect" candidate

and yes i am with dan, don't bitch if you didn't vote

I'll risk sounding whiny, thanks.

i mean, maybe this is corny and unrealistic, but look at the final count for 2004 - kerry lost but he got 59,028,111 and if you voted for him the 1 on the end of that big-ass number is YOURS

this DOES NOT MATTER unless you live in a swing-state. my vote is statistically insignificant, and thanks to the "winner-take-all" electoral college model, my vote has zero impact on the GE because my district is gonna throw its delegates to the Dem nominee by a huge margin, as it has for the last, oh I dunno, probably 50+ years.

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I pay taxes and vote in elections where my vote is counted so I'll bitch all I want, thx

Que, what does it take for you to understand the diff btwn "Not Perfect" and LOATHSOME? At least three of us appear to fucking hate Rodham and McCain.

as for judiciously applied violence, uh good luck with that

Lexington and Concord, baby. (Harpers Ferry too)

gore wouldn't have won the popular vote, which was of no official importance but plenty of rhetorical/cultural importance

lololol. That fact will be as obscure as Tilden-Hayes in 40 years.

isn't Henrik Hertzberg been quietly advocating district reform?

(xpost)

i understand that your vote is literally one in 100 million but its still nice to look at that number on the end of it there and think that its a 7 instead of a 6 because of YOU

Every time I see post-election violence in Kenya or Ukraine or see democracy and human- and privacy right ebbing away in Russia, statements like

I'm coming to think civil disobedience (and judiciously applied violence) are looking like much more efficient mechanisms than voting.

just seem spoiled and myopic to me.

Que, what does it take for you to understand the diff btwn "Not Perfect" and LOATHSOME? At least three of us appear to fucking hate Rodham and McCain.

okay, fine. you hate hillary, but LOL we should get rid of the electoral college anyway but what are the chances of that happening.

if every non-swing state voter who doesnt bother with a dem because its throwing a vote away or whatever actually did go in for hill or obama it could put the popular vote higher than mccain even if he wins the electoral college, and that's important when it comes to the legitimacy of the presidency

I mean voting may be a 1 in 100 million thing but the real value of voting isn't winning today, it's in keeping the institution of a stable democracy alive over time.

dan what about the opposite argument: if you voted you shouldn't complain about bush winning. you played the game and lost.

That is a stupid argument and if you advance it, you should probably re-examine what you think America's principles are.

i think if you pax taxes you should get to vote, it's kinda one of the founding principles of america

There is a good amount of truth to this and I don't know exactly how much that complicates the illegal immigrant issue.

Also, unless your state completely disallows write-in candidates (I had no idea FL did this btw), you can always vote for SOMEONE. Maybe they won't win but you've at least registered your opinion.

i understand that your vote is literally one in 100 million but its still nice to look at that number on the end of it there and think that its a 7 instead of a 6 because of YOU

if its just a case of pride, why can't I be proud that I'm one of the lone votes for some write-in candidate, as opposed to becoming complicit in the eventual crimes of someone I find completely abhorrent...? why should I be compelled to vote for one of the two major candidates? fuck that

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even if he wins the electoral college, and that's important when it comes to the legitimacy of the presidency

yeah really impacted Dubya's "legitimacy" didn'it (see 90% approval rating post-9/11 etc)

is it really worth californians writing in 'mickey mouse' to not be able to say to president romney that he lost the popular vote?

I mean voting may be a 1 in 100 million thing but the real value of voting isn't winning today, it's in keeping the institution of a stable democracy alive over time.

this is a more legitimate argument, but note that it doesn't necessitate me voting for either major party candidate