Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Yeah, I agree with that.

in fact, showing less of it might have been better, as it looked, well, less horrific than real wars in the real world.

It looked like laser tag.

Loved the special on the whole though. You can tell Capaldi's going to be a terrific Doctor just from that one shot.

I wonder if there are going to be novels, audio plays etc about the War Doctor now?

the version in the US was exactly the same and commercial free, so not sure if that was a snark or what

Well, there was that scene near the end where Tennant and Smith bonded over Quarter Pounders because they were lovin' it

and then they hi-fived and played beer pong to 'This is How We Do It'

gallifrey had one 'l'

Five(ish) was great, and the McGann short was great.

The 50th wasn't. Disappointed that watching Matt Smith and a Tardis flying over London suspended from a helicopter was so NOT-fun. Where was fun?

To me, everything about the War Doctor reeked of "oh shit, Eccleston's backed out, what the hell we gonna do? I know, John Hurt and a rubbish tweak to the script!" "But what about continuity and all that?" "It's Doctor Who, that stuff doesn't matter! Timey-wimey!" "Stephen, you're such a genius!"

And I wouldn't have cared if it were fun. But I was very disappointed.

quel dommage

lol Sparkle otm.

Yeah see I was initially peeved that the continuity established in "The End of Time" was retconned, but then I realized I hated "The End of Time."

No, I don't like EoT either, that's not what I mean about continuity. I just think this Doctor-who-wasn't-a-Doctor-but-now-is-a-Doctor-and-hey-he-always-was-a-Doctor-because-he-never-blew-up-Gallifrey has the effect of making Eccelston's entire series a joke. 9th Doc was all about his guilt. It would have been great if 9th Doc could have overcome his guilt by not-killing the Timelords, but since War Doctor did it, it means that 9th Doc's entire era and character arc has been retconned out of its meaning.

Plus, no fun. But by all means, have a laugh at my expense!

If you don't think a fez being an important plot point and seeing 13 Doctors hide a whole planet in a pocket universe are fun, then there's not much hope of convincing you.

Hah I had a lot of fun. Though yeah the Doctor hanging from the TARDIS wasn't shot particularly well. Which was funny because during the making-of (which ran IMMEDIATELY following the special) when they are shooting that scene it is cloudy and rainy and they are like "Oh well, this is London" and maybe if this was an American show they would say 'Cut we aren't shooting until the sun is out and we have the budget to wait' but this is Doctor Who and Time is Money and damn good lighting conditions, this is London yo, let's get on w it.

Opening with the old school Dr Who titles and that original theme, just having that on a huge screen in a movie theater, was an extremely awesome experience as a lifelong American Dr. Who fan. Also seeing a sci-fi movie in a theater that isn't 80% CGI shit flying blurrily by the camera. Whenever I hear a complaint about quality or the cheesiness of the monsters or whatever, I just remind myself that this is one of the last bastion of practical effects around.

Adam, didn't realize you were American! And on that last tip regarding cheesy SFX:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/7d4cb891984b2bdfcb234ca174bb18ff/tumblr_mwuy94VD3s1qbypg1o1_500.gif

I just love this shot to bits.

9th Doc was all about his guilt. It would have been great if 9th Doc could have overcome his guilt by not-killing the Timelords, but since War Doctor did it, it means that 9th Doc's entire era and character arc has been retconned out of its meaning.

this. rusty went well out of his way to kill off all the trek-like gallifrey wank council garbage that basically killed the show first time round, and now we're back where we started.

yes i know rusty was complicit in that as well yes i know thank you sic

well what are you going to do. eccleston won't come back for whatever bizarre stick up his ass reason. I don't think the 50th was written with him in mind though. they've known for ages he wasn't coming back and Hurt was set up in Name of the Doctor.

Eccleston's refusal to give in at all seems priggish and he comes across as a huge asshole as a result of it. But I don't really like his portrayal of the doctor too much anyway.

There was a story told by somebody on Head heritage about Eccleston's reasoning behind distancing himself from the Doctor Who experience
http://www.headheritage.co.uk/headtohead/the_village_pump/topic/70165/threaded/889484

which explains his feeling shortly after the experience and may still hold true.
Seems a shame and hasn't stopped him appearing in a couple of other things that had tie ins with money making enterprises maybe it's the way it was done though?

In Eccleston's first episode it's heavily implied he's just regenerated, so although he has survivor's guilt, he's a different regeneration to the Doctor who blew up Gallifrey, which we would have previously assumed to be McGann. Whether a result of Eccleston's no-show or not, the introduction of the Hurt Doctor allows both McGann and Eccleston to remain heroes. And as Hurt, 9, 10 and until now 11, all believe they DID blow up Gallifrey then their war guilt has not been undermined. Neither have the events of EOT, as the 50th alludes to the High Council off plotting elsewhere, so that leaves scope for them to enact their plans ahead of the Doctor using the Movement. Ok, it's not the neatest of solutions, but then EOT was such a mess in the first place that there's only so much Moffat could have done.
Sure, there's a bit of handwaving with the other Doctors forgetting what they did at the end, but it's a neat way of wiping the slate clean so that the Doctor can move on, without erasing the events of the previous 7 seasons. The Doctor as lonely god/last of his kind arc was getting a bit played out. Now the Doctor can get on with being the cosmic hobo, as a friend put it, of yore. Moffat has also found a nice way of bringing back Gallifrey, at least as an idea, without bringing back all the boring Timelord bits. According to Moffat plan is simply to have the quest for Gallifrey as an underlying theme. It's not something they'll refer to specifically every other episode. It's also a good way of bringing the Master back, which is rumoured to be on the cards.

In Eccleston's first episode it's heavily implied he's just regenerated, so although he has survivor's guilt, he's a different regeneration to the Doctor who blew up Gallifrey, which we would have previously assumed to be McGann

^^^ This FFS. The Ecclestone handwringing is the worst, he's perfectly entitled not to go back to the role and the episode wasn't any worse for not having him in it. Also Hurt was terrific.

I was pretty neutral about Tennant leaving when he did, but I'm actually kind of gutted Smith only has one more episode. He's still great; it's just that the second halves of his two split seasons have been super-nothingy.

From a fanwank perspective it would have been nice to have seen Hurt regenerate into Ecclestone, but it's no biggie that we didn't. After all, we know what happens next: the beginning of Season 1. Would have been impractical to have roped him, or any of the other Doctors in for a couple of seconds of film. The Capaldi bit was presumably filmed alongside his regeneration scene and cut in at a fairly late stage. Plus he's already contracted so there's no red tape involved.

Anyway, I think Hurt was great. Loved how fun he was, while still showing a war-weary dark side. His moment of redemption was well earned.
I don't really buy this talk of Moffat quickly fixing the script to reflect Eccleston's non-involvement. After all, he set up the 'name of the doctor' idea way back in series 5 with the space whale. This isn't to say that he had the 50th all planned out back then, but it's an idea he clearly wanted to explore further. The extra Doctor (plus the meta-crisis) also gives him a way of addressing the regeneration limit in the 50th year, setting things up for another 50. So there's just too much going on to fit in with the idea that this was hastily cobbled together.

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/IMG_0548.png?f6a06b

I love this picture, it makes it clear that John Hurt actually regenerates into Will Ferrell.

From a fanwank perspective it would have been nice to have seen Hurt regenerate into Ecclestone, but it's no biggie that we didn't.

I think we did, just about.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/D9xiA.jpg

lol xpost

Midway through the Kate Lethbridge-Stewart's transformation into a Zygon she looked exactly like Theresa May. I'd like to think that was intentional.

I think Hurt was great. Loved how fun he was, while still showing a war-weary dark side.

I thought he was mostly great. I definitely thought he was the right choice for a War Doctor. But the 'fun' aspect just didn't jibe with what the war-weary side should have been -> this is a problem with the writing, not the actor, and also a pretty big problem to balance.

After all, he set up the 'name of the doctor' idea way back in series 5 with the space whale.

Expand?

I didn't find it too jarring. He was introduced as pretty bad-ass, but once he's pulled out of the Time War into a jolly romp with the other Doctors, his more Doctorly side comes out.

'name of the doctor' The Doctor says if he kills the spacewhale he'll have to renounce the name of the Doctor. But then Amy saves the day with wuv, so he escaped that moral quandary. I suppose we could see all this as an update of 'have i the right' in Genesis of the Daleks.

Only thing really confusing me now is that I always figured the Doctor originally stole the TARDIS to escape the blowing up planet but now it feels like he stole it for other reasons then just lived for 1000 years or so and then went back to his home planet to fight in the time war(?). So why did he steal the TARDIS in the 1st (Hartnell) place? Is this ever explained?

Not entirely, I think it's always been implied that it was mainly boredom and thirst for adventure.

But yeah Gallifrey was doing perfectly fine when he made off with it.

Ok cool.

I'm not a Doctor, but I'm pretty sure that if I was on the verge of killing my people a little romp wouldn't swing me out of my bad mood. But that's why I say it's a difficult balancing act, because who wants Dr Who to be unutterably despairing and depressing (well, aside from big old gothy me)? Yet it's going to be disappointing if you're thrown out of your suspension of disbelief. But I reckon kids would be more believing of the weird mood-swingy thing, little kids perfectly understand the move from "waaaaaah it's the end of the world" to "oh, an ice cream! Yeay!"

/I thought he was mostly great. I definitely thought he was the right choice for a War Doctor. But the 'fun' aspect just didn't jibe with what the war-weary side should have been -> this is a problem with the writing, not the actor, and also a pretty big problem to balance.

A thousand times THIS. Which is why the Time War was a bad topic for the special. IMHO.

In Eccleston's first episode it's heavily implied he's just regenerated, so although he has survivor's guilt, he's a different regeneration to the Doctor who blew up Gallifrey, which we would have previously assumed to be McGann

I watched 'Rose' again a few months ago, and I don't see this at all.

Wasn't he worried about the size of his ears, and didn't know what he looked like until he looked in a mirror (disclaimer: haven't seen it for years)

Yeah he's closer to the Fast Show's "aren't Xs brilliant!" enthusiasm guy in that first episode xp

He looks in the mirror and says something like "big ears, but could be worse" so it implies he's just regenerated.

But doesn't Rose uncover loads of pics on the internet of Eccles in various historical locations, implying he's been Doctoring for a while?

wibbley wobbley timey wimey

yes, or he appears in all of those photos later in his own timeline or does it not work that way?

timey wimey

goes ding

lol xp

But then he would have to have been with Rose for all those photos, which I guess is possible if they're unseen adventures and she happens to have been (will have been?) out of shot in all of them.

Can't remember the Ecclestone backstory bits but Tennant and Smith both definitely had periods of many years that they lived separately from their companions, despite it seeming to said companions that they'd been away for a day, a month, or sometimes a few years. Perfectly possible that Ecclestone did this too.

There are no such obvious gaps in Nine and Rose's travels as far as I remember, though I could be wrong.

Yeah I think That may be what timey wimey refered to. except that maybe the story writers weren't paying attention to things and didn't provide gaps where they should have. I'm trying to think if there is a point at which the two are separated mid season since he's with her at the end.
& if he hasn't had a prior chance to see his own reflection, unless he is really vain it would seem strange if that had happened prior to his meeting Rose.

So looks like it was probably an oversight, or do the 2 part at the end of the 1st episode then he come back to pick her up for some reason, which might indicate it happened in that interval?
Of course it presumably wasn't known that he was going to quit in mid season before that sequence was shot giving him dotting throughout history. So maybe they were thinking there would be time afterwards to do that.

Or at least have announced the same before the season aired. Which is what I think happened isn't it?

Or I guess they could've split up and reunited between episodes.

I like the idea of Nine having had a period of lonely angstful wandering before being reconnected to humanity by Rose better though.

xpost

There's probably a racist/patronising/modern-centric explanation which says he was just never near a mirror until Rose, having been in remote places. (Which is clearly bollocks but, you know, Rusty.)

The real answer though is probably

HOOT! Wouldn't it be cool if The Doctor doesn't know what he looks like! And when he sees himself in the mirror he can make a joke about his ears, in a slight rework of the script in Robot and Spearhead! HOOT!
HOOT! A sad fat loser has been paying attention to what's been happening to the Doctor while he's been off television! He can have been at famous events in the past, like when the show did historicals, and the fat loser can get the wrong end of the stick! Then we can do sad music when the Autons shoot him! HOOT!
HOOT! HANDWAVE! HOOT!
QUEL DOMMAGE!

You missed "I totally want to fuck the Doctor" but other than that OTM

There are no such obvious gaps in Nine and Rose's travels as far as I remember, though I could be wrong.

At one point Ecclestone tells Rose about the bicycle he left for her one Christmas when she was a little girl, so there's at least one occasion for him to have been off on his own since having met her.

You missed "I totally want to fuck the Doctor" but other than that OTM

I actually think Moff wants it more than Rusty, myself. They take turns in the annoying sweepstakes.

Yeah, Moff was the one making Doctor action figures hold hands.