thread for contemplating the serious issues raised by the Men's Rights movement

i was thinking this thread might be useful for Mordy or somebody later tho

i subscribe to /r/MensRights so i am willing to testify as an expert witness

I could burrow round for irish suicide rates and trend of gender-differentiated school reports, homelessess, drug abuse stats and and all that but i mean who cares tbh

manplaining

iirc, the first ten or twenty usages of mansplaining on ilx were assumed to mean just that, wins (iirc because they were used p stupidly but only iirc eh)

It's an awkward coinage, kinda funny that it needed explaining tho

I could burrow round for irish suicide rates and trend of gender-differentiated school reports, homelessess, drug abuse stats and and all that but i mean who cares tbh

― bachmansplain jenny turner overtalk (darraghmac), Monday, 18 November 2013 12:41 (13 minutes ago)

why?

The contrast is even greater today, with WHO statistics showing China as the only country where the suicide rate of female matches or exceeds that of males.[22]

The story says that when the King locked up the Wild Man, “he gave the key into the keeping of the Queen,” but we were only about seven then, and in any case our father never told us what he had done with it. So where is the key?
I’ve heard audiences try to answer that one: “It’s around the boy’s neck.”

No.

“It’s hidden in Iron John’s cage.”
No.

“It’s inside the golden ball.”

No.

“It’s inside the castle...on a hook inside the Treasure Room.” No.

“It’s in the Tower. It’s on a hook high up on the wall!”

No.

The Wild Man replies, “The key is under your mother’s pillow.”

The key is not inside the ball, nor in the golden chest, not in the safe . . . the key is under our mother’s pillow – just where Freud said it would be.
Getting the key back from under the mother’s pillow is a troublesome task. Freud, taking advice from a Greek play, says that a man should not skip over the mutual attraction between himself and his mother if he wants a long life. The mother’s pillow, after all, lies in the bed near where she makes love to your father. Moreover, there’s another implication attached to the pillow.
Michael Meade, the myth teller, once remarked to me that the pillow is also the place where the mother stores all her expectations for you. She dreams: “My son the doctor.” “My son the Jungian analyst.” “My son the Wall Street genius.” But very few mothers dream: “My son the Wild Man.”
On the son’s side, he isn’t sure he wants to take the key. Simply transferring the key from the mother’s to a guru’s pillow won’t help. Forgetting that the mother possesses it is a bad mistake. A mother’s job is, after all, to civilize the boy, and so it is natural for her to keep the key. All families behave alike: on this planet, “The King gives the key into the keeping of the Queen.”
Attacking the mother, confronting her, shouting at her, which some Freudians are prone to urge on us, probably does not accomplish much – she may just smile and talk to you with her elbow on the pillow. Oedipus’ conversation with Jocasta never did much good, nor did Hamlet’s shouting.
A friend of mentioned that it’s wise to steal the key some day when your mother and father are gone. “My father and mother are away today” implies a day when the head is free of parental inhibitions. That’s the day to steal the key. Gioia Timpanelli, the writer and storyteller, remarked that, mythologically, the theft of the key belongs to the world of Hermes.
And the Key has to be stolen. I recall talking to an audience of men and women once about this problem of stealing the key. A young man, obviously well trained in New Age modes of operation, said, “Robert, I’m disturbed by this idea of stealing the key. Stealing isn’t right. Couldn’t a group of us just go to the mother and say, ‘Mom, could I have the key back?’?”
His model was probably consensus, the way the staff at the health food store settles things. I felt the souls of all the women in the room rise up in the air to kill him. Men like that are as dangerous to women as they are to men.
Getting the key back from under the mother’s pillow is a troublesome task. Freud, taking advice from a Greek play, says that a man should not skip over the mutual attraction between himself and his mother if he wants a long life. The mother’s pillow, after all, lies in the bed near where she makes love to your father. Moreover, there’s another implication attached to the pillow.
No mother worth her salt would give the key anyway. If a son can’t steal it, he doesn’t deserve it.
"I want to let the Wild Man out!"
"Come over and give Mommy a kiss."
Mothers are intuitively aware of what would happen if he got the key: they would lose their boys. The possessiveness that mothers typically exercise on sons – not to mention the possessiveness that fathers typically exercise on daughters – can never be underestimated.
The means of getting the key back varies with each man, but suffice it to say that democratic or nonlinear approaches will not carry the day.

i think that's my favorite image from the iron john book. it doesn't resonate much with me anymore, but when i was a teenager it helped me contextualize the feelings i had about expressing my own agency v. allowing my parents (and mother) to express it for me.

mennns riiiights (james franco voice)

Core MRA ideology IME:
Men get abused more than women.
Only the rape of males is under-reported!!!!
Liberal judges hate men in custody battles.
Alimony and child support are bullshit, maaaaan

i'm not really interested in oppression shop-talk no matter who is making it

hey you guys know what day it is today right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Toilet_Organization#World_Toilet_Day

cba finding that little tick you do but imagine it here

thread needed the fabled duvet of DNRIYHM in the title tbh

http://i.imgur.com/CZC4xZ8.jpg

doesn't look like he's completely surrendered yet

ban dayo from thread pls mods

are you trying to restrict the expression of a man dmac

Im doubtful as to his ally credentials tbph

deems could you write one clear paragraph explaining why the issues raised by this movement are issues that should be addressed through the framework of men's rights

Ilx isn't the place for it also phone also my goodness is that the time

iirc

Serious question, does Fight Club figure into any of this

only in the sense that male expression as free violence + physical force reifies particular views of masculinity

What are the issues raised by the movement and what framework are you referring to tbh?

Typed on my phone while i grabbed a quick cuppa at work, fu wins

I guess I'm also thinking of the parts where they blame their own emasculation on the lack of fathers, or strong father figures, in their lives

maybe w/ stronger father figures they could've developed a sense of worth that didn't result in punching strangers in dimly-lit underground parking lots - if anything tho the problem of fight club wasn't that they were emasculated but that they tried to compensate for that emasculation self-destructively.

they masculated

How does having a strong father figure affect a sense of worth

a father can model how to be in the world

Would you say that a father is sufficient but not necessary for modeling how to be in the world, or is a father both sufficient and necessary for modeling how to be in the world

dgmw daz I'm down with ur evasion of specifics, it's easier to maintain series continuity if deems dastardly gets away just in time at the end of each ep

i don't know if it's necessary, but i can certainly see how lacking a role model for how to perform in certain ways could lead to undesirable results. even having a father is not sufficient bc lots of fathers are terrible father figures.

My evasion of specifics is usually (and u will note it as a constant across most themes) related to my ignorance of the topic at hand, like im not gonna study up on mra to argue about it on ilx, likewise astrology or w/e.

Despite the nomer I don't think this thread is about MRA as exemplified by reddit

Desite requests otherwise iirc, ilx is hardly gonna bother with a separation there i'd imagine

and like if the behavior being modeled is heinous, maybe better to be without entirely. but i think it's natural as a human to look to ppl older than you for guidance on how to act. i have studied (consciously + subconsciously) my parents both to figure out what to do and what not to do. in some ways i've reflected my father in my marriage + as a father myself, and in some ways i've moved away from him, but having him a basis to start from has been a tremendous boon in my life. and on a more esoteric/distant level, i think that our 'forefathers' can have a similar place - something to adopt or reject within the context of a personal familial tradition.

Desite requests otherwise iirc, ilx is hardly gonna bother with a separation there i'd imagine

― 30 ch'lopping days left to umas (darraghmac), Tuesday, November 19, 2013 9:44 AM (28 seconds ago) Bookmark

Take strength from the courage of your convictions and make a stand against your oppressors, for once

i posted this in hey jews a bit back but i think it's relevant here too

Rav Soloveitchik distinguished between the Sinai covenant that teaches what a Jew should do and the Patriarchal covenant (Brit Avot) – the “I’ awareness of the Jew. 94% of the Jews in the entire study had that awareness. Rabbi Soloveitchik clearly stated that precedence goes to the Patriarchal covenant. How do we learn about this covenant? Rabbi Soloveitchik answered that we learn through exemplarity; Abraham was kind to strangers and argued for justice.

My evasion of specifics is usually (and u will note it as a constant across most themes) related to my ignorance of the topic at hand, like im not gonna study up on mra to argue about it on ilx, likewise astrology or w/e.

― 30 ch'lopping days left to umas (darraghmac), Tuesday, 19 November 2013 14:42 (3 minutes ago)

just glad we know it's the usual deems triangulation thing where you disavow ilx' customary treatment of a subject, then disavow any interest in or concern for the subject itself because you don't want to seem wounded on behalf of its proponents

so you don't REALLY give a shit but give enough of a shit to pretend you don't give a shit

xp ive related a general lack of conviction already tbph

and like if the behavior being modeled is heinous, maybe better to be without entirely. but i think it's natural as a human to look to ppl older than you for guidance on how to act. i have studied (consciously + subconsciously) my parents both to figure out what to do and what not to do. in some ways i've reflected my father in my marriage + as a father myself, and in some ways i've moved away from him, but having him a basis to start from has been a tremendous boon in my life. and on a more esoteric/distant level, i think that our 'forefathers' can have a similar place - something to adopt or reject within the context of a personal familial tradition.

― Mordy , Tuesday, 19 November 2013 14:44 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why does this need to be gendered though? Why the assumption that you can learn more from your father than from your mother, or even different kinds of things?

idk shit about mra either but we both know or can imagine the laundry list of complaints the mra luther will nail to the door of their nearest hooters, and if you can't see why it is ludicrous to list them together as 'men's right's, or alternatively argue that there is a coherent reason for that umbrella of majoritarian special pleading, then you shouldn't have pretended to be interested in the first place

xp lol idk about 'wounded' but will admit a propensity to argue against specific cases rather than for any given thing, other than that eh...

if your arguments are consistenly aligned against the same stuff, then a consistent if vague argument for can be inferred, unles you want us to believe that all your oppositional arguments are just chosen entirely randomly, in which case it's a miracle how consistent they seem

mra is dogshit, mra advocates are delusional victimhood queens, there are instances where men suffer unduly, these need to be remedied but they are not to be understood within a communitarian 'rights' analysis

do you agree or disagree with this formulation? you have to choose one or the other, it's decision time deems

xxxxp i'm not going to take a gender essentialism approach bc i don't believe in one, but speaking personally the things i have learned from my mother are not the things i learned from my father. maybe this is bc of historical cultural mediation, or bc of some level of gender essentialism (having children has clarified for me that some gender distinctions - like regarding pregnancy, breastfeeding, etc - are real + relevant), but whatever it is, my father was able to model to me how to be an adult male and my mother did not. obv for someone like me who participates in a culturally historical community that still operates heavily on gender lines (men wear tefillin and kipot, women light candles friday night) having that male role model might be more significant/important than someone operating in a different environment.

I can't believe these fuckers managed to ruin hats for everyone

and jorts

Well, tbf

Trying to suss out their boy band name. Shouldn't be hard for y'all to improve on 'Act U.L.E'.

i like how "they're" hands are all in different states of finger snapping

the Gordon cover of our time

damnit are you trying to get this thread locked

i like how "they're" hands are all in different states of finger snapping

that, and there's always one bozo out of step

C'mon guys there's no way that meme wasn't made as a piss-take

If you set them in order of finger snap progress it unlocks the next puzzle

xp if you had just posted "lads" you could've gotten 1.5 jokes and an admonishment in like 1/16th the character count

More jokes than smashig punkings had in their whole career

guys you've got "criminal" down fine but you really need to work on the "smooth" part

C'mon guys there's no way that meme wasn't made as a piss-take

― smashong pumpgong (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, February 21, 2018 9:00 AM (thirty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

if you can tell the difference these days you're smarter than i am. mras are some of the many people i can't pass the Turing Test of Stupid on anymore.

the meme is obviously a piss-take and i'd hazard the photo is from a piss-take performance, someone's choreographed burlesque fedora sendup etc.

imo the entire existence of MRAs is a piss take ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

can't believe u guys are doggin my meme like this, thought you were my fedora bros

there's no way these posts weren't made as a piss-take

posts were made using logic iirc

lads

When I was like 23 my friends and I spotted a bunch of discount clothes at Kohls and we wound up purchasing a bunch of fedoras, purple-skull T-shirts, and checkered green shorts at like 90% off. then we'd do this thing where we'd go to bars, one at a time, like 5-10 minutes after each other, so the bar would slowly fill up with people wearing this exact same clashing, intensely ugly outfit. we'd just say "Sup" to each other but otherwise pretend not to know each other. I can't remember why we did this. Anyway, just wanted to share

real life habbo hotel menacing

men should have no rights

don't be so quick, might be handy to retain the right to die

of course a feminist being shut down by MRA twitter trolls has a more thoughtful stance on how men can be disproportionately victimized by domestic violence and abuse than probably 100% of self-identified MRAs

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/03/killallmen-feminist-liberation-satire

Men, as well as young boys, are absolutely victims of domestic violence. No serious advocate would try and tell you otherwise. Men in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships can experience physical abuse at the hands of a partner. Male children are also vulnerable to abuse from mothers and not just fathers. However, there’s a difficulty in assessing whether they are more likely because of the stigma around reporting. Women are simply more likely to report intimate physical abuse. It is my own personal opinion that men and boys have a much harder time coming to grips with physical and sexual abuse and might very well need more support in the short term.

I am just genuinely puzzled by this one, which argument I see in various forms

https://i.redd.it/b2cvp29ills31.jpg

Are there men out there who feel cheated out of the chance to be a single dad by a woman's right to choose? I really don't want to just outright mock this because, who knows, maybe those guys are out there, but I find it hard to believe.

jesus h christ

Can women choose to have free access to appropriate birth control in America yet? When I was there the system seemed designed to make it as much of a headache as possible. At least the wannabe single dads benefit I guess.

I mean obviously the ONLY real point here is "it's unfair to make me pay child support (because hypothetically I didn't have the choice to do a bunch of other stuff I never in a million years would have done)." But in these guys minds do they really think they were somehow deprived of those other choices?

the point is "anything that i don't want or that i think is bad that could happen to me makes me a victim"

Can women choose to have free access to appropriate birth control in America yet?
No

They can also CHOOSE to exercise boner control when it comes to having the sex that produces the baby.

Are there men out there who feel cheated out of the chance to be a single dad by a woman's right to choose?

i think there actually are? (no i cannot explain it)

Are there men out there who feel cheated out of the chance to be a single dad by a woman's right to choose? I really don't want to just outright mock this because, who knows, maybe those guys are out there, but I find it hard to believe.

by "not the most stable" I mean the dude was a very sweet guy, but also a total alcoholic. not that he was violent or abusive or anything.