What are his views on the creation of Israel?
― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Monday, 30 September 2013 15:00 (ten years ago) link
i'd assume they took exception w/ an assertion that the victims of the shoah justified a nationalist self-determinated jewish movement like zionism, but i defer to darragh who actually watched the doc which i have not yet.
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:01 (ten years ago) link
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/111371/simon-schama-and-bbc-attacked-over-story-jews
it's p much all in the story mordy quoted. not much a controversy tbh.
― zvookster, Monday, 30 September 2013 15:06 (ten years ago) link
claiming it was “alarming” that Professor Schama should be allowed to discuss the Shoah.
I'm generally a supporter of Palestinian rights, but branding it alarming that a Jewish man can put forth his opinions on the Holocaust is rather alarming in itself.
― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Monday, 30 September 2013 15:10 (ten years ago) link
that's a bit of editorializing. they get specific later & it's a bit different
Their complaints followed Prof Schama’s explanation that “it was not just what the Nazis did to the Jews, but what the rest of the world failed to do that makes the moral case for Israel”.In the letter to Ms Hadlow the activists wrote: “We find it alarming that the BBC is giving a platform to an openly pro-Israeli commentator to make the ‘moral case’ for Israel.“Schama’s views will go unopposed, unchallenged and unanalysed. This is a far cry from the balanced and impartial broadcasting that the BBC claims to champion.”
In the letter to Ms Hadlow the activists wrote: “We find it alarming that the BBC is giving a platform to an openly pro-Israeli commentator to make the ‘moral case’ for Israel.
“Schama’s views will go unopposed, unchallenged and unanalysed. This is a far cry from the balanced and impartial broadcasting that the BBC claims to champion.”
― zvookster, Monday, 30 September 2013 15:15 (ten years ago) link
I dunno, sounds like I'd have some issues with his his views, but is the programme purporting to be anything other than Schama's opinions?
― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Monday, 30 September 2013 15:21 (ten years ago) link
I can understand the objection. I think if a "historian" did a long program on "the history of the Palestinians" that concluded with editorializing on why Israel should not have been founded, folk would be pretty upset
― #fomo that's the motto (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 September 2013 15:23 (ten years ago) link
Yeah fair point.
― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Monday, 30 September 2013 15:25 (ten years ago) link
yeah it is purporting to be objective history, going by history of britain, but saying something "makes the case" for something isn't an absolute endorsement of that case & the bbc say "dissenting voices" are included.
― zvookster, Monday, 30 September 2013 15:27 (ten years ago) link
i think the BBC often editorializes in the other direction; it's not like the UK media is lacking for pro-Palestinian voices.
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:31 (ten years ago) link
i doubt palestinian activists agree w/ that
― zvookster, Monday, 30 September 2013 15:32 (ten years ago) link
well sure - no one ever feels like their side is getting a fair hearing (i remember there's a great beirut study to that effect) but c'mon - ever read comment is free, listen to the bbc, notice all the london-based arabic newspapers?
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:32 (ten years ago) link
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~jpiliavi/965/hwang.pdf
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:33 (ten years ago) link
i think there's a feeling that the bbc in particular is a bit dodgy in this respect
― zvookster, Monday, 30 September 2013 15:34 (ten years ago) link
look at the beirut hostile media study in that case. pro-israel commentators frequently make very strong cases that the bbc is not pro-israel (ones that i have to agree w/ as a regular listener of the bbc)
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:35 (ten years ago) link
I keep reading this thread title as petitioning to annoy jews.
― #fomo that's the motto (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 September 2013 15:36 (ten years ago) link
eg this website is totally devoted to the topic (nb i don't read this site so i can't vouch for its quality of argument): http://bbcwatch.org
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:36 (ten years ago) link
― Mordy , Monday, September 30, 2013 11:35 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I think it's become pretty clear that media critics on both sides are convinced that every media outlet not 100% following their respective platforms is biased toward the other side. That said, there is a difference between subtle editorializing in individual news articles and presenting a long-form historical documentary that culminates in an argument for the state of israel. And whether the BBC is usually biased a different way has nothing to do with whether that's an appropriate way to present the subject.
― #fomo that's the motto (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 September 2013 15:38 (ten years ago) link
did you watch the documentary, hurting, or are you just going off the articles you've read on the topic?
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:39 (ten years ago) link
bc certainly if a historian argued that the shoah was a large factor in the creation of the state of israel, they wouldn't be arguing for a moral right for israel to exist - just acknowledging a pretty stale historical fact that 99% of the world agrees w/ (that killing 6m jews helped galvanize the creation of the state)
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:41 (ten years ago) link
this is maybe a different topic but i think it tangentially relates to the prevalence of holocaust denial in islamic society - presumably bc its fact alone makes such a persuasive case for the state of israel/zionism even w/out explicit editorializing.
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:49 (ten years ago) link
isn't there like a billion and a half muslims in the world? how prevalent is holocaust denial among them really
― zvookster, Monday, 30 September 2013 15:54 (ten years ago) link
i don't think Schama wd claim to be an objective historian; i don't think any historian today wd make many claims to objectivity. his case for Israel as it reads up there cd be argued as a causal one as well as a personal opinion
― how do i shot cwmbran? (Noodle Vague), Monday, 30 September 2013 15:54 (ten years ago) link
really prevalent? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Holocaust_denial_in_the_Arab_world
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 15:55 (ten years ago) link
i don't think any historian today wd make many claims to objectivity
well true but perhaps "presented as objective history" is quite close all the same
― zvookster, Monday, 30 September 2013 15:58 (ten years ago) link
"the arab world" isn't the same as saying islamic society, just for starters
― zvookster, Monday, 30 September 2013 15:59 (ten years ago) link
I was trying to be inclusive towards the persians
― Mordy , Monday, 30 September 2013 16:03 (ten years ago) link
Maybe you can Gabbneb and Shakey Mo to post on your Annoying Jews of ILX Board
I have no memory of what prompted this
― what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 30 September 2013 16:24 (ten years ago) link
how prevalent is holocaust denial among them really
it is really prevalent
― what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 30 September 2013 16:26 (ten years ago) link
that's not the only time I ever remember him saying something vaguely anti-Jewish, fwiw
― #fomo that's the motto (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 September 2013 16:27 (ten years ago) link
I don't really care it's just weird that gabbneb and I would ever be on the same side of anything lol
― what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 30 September 2013 16:33 (ten years ago) link
It was an hourlong programme focusing on the foundation of israel and developments since in context of a series on the history of the jews, told by a historian with a trait of personalising the subject.
Attacking him for mentioning that he thought israel had a right to exist (i suppose more correctly stating one of the justifications for same) seems to be the reaction of a viewer just waiting for the chance to jump.
Fwiw he addressed from various povs the thoughts of israelis who were uneasy about the placement of their settlements on cleared palestinian villages, israelis taking advantage of available housing on disputed expansions, interviewed ppl re the changing borders after and since 67, and there were varying degrees of doubt and belligerence throughout without much in the way of input from him.
The only person he took pains to clearly disagree with advocated (in as many words) a return to the biblical borders. Schama found it visibly difficult to engage with this guy and admitted as much in the next section where he and another guy dismissed these views as near enough lunacy.
He finished with a final piece p critical of the israeli state as is imo, but certainly not denying its right to exist nor asserting that, as an outsider, he had much right to a judgement at all.
In no way an hour of propaganda imo, he was never gonna present an arab case for redress in this series.
― hey racists can be joyless too yknow (darraghmac), Monday, 30 September 2013 18:39 (ten years ago) link
PICTS PLEASE
― Laurel, Tuesday, January 22, 2008
^^ far better post than this thread deserved
― Aimless, Monday, 30 September 2013 23:51 (ten years ago) link
did anyone make reference to the canonical sunny successor post re: "annoying" ?
― not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Monday, 30 September 2013 23:52 (ten years ago) link
uh
look idk how to say this sarahell but the jews have a different canon
― hey racists can be joyless too yknow (darraghmac), Tuesday, 1 October 2013 09:27 (ten years ago) link
Didn't know about The Story of the Jews until today but found it on video and the history graduate in me had a nerdgasm finding out about the Geniza collection because omg
― Insane Prince of False Binaries (Gukbe), Wednesday, 22 January 2014 01:22 (ten years ago) link
geniza collection is super cool - i visited the JTS archive in college and was really amazed
― Mordy , Wednesday, 22 January 2014 01:46 (ten years ago) link
The bits in the archive they showed looked incredible, including the kids' doodles.
Found it on vimeo, not video, I should say.
― Insane Prince of False Binaries (Gukbe), Wednesday, 22 January 2014 02:06 (ten years ago) link
This isn't really the thread for it I know but I just barrelled through the whole thing and I really loved it. Anyone complaining about that last episode is ridiculous, although I do recognise that I'm coming from a position that is if not in lockstep with Schama's at least close to it. Still, it's pretty damning of the settlements and, in a way, the pitfalls of nationalism (which, as is pointed out in the last three episodes, is one of the major sources of the horrors in Europe). Given that, I just can't understand someone complaining to the BBC.
― Insane Prince of False Binaries (Gukbe), Wednesday, 22 January 2014 09:39 (ten years ago) link
Pardon me, but is this the thread where ILX gathers to annoy jews?
― Aimless, Wednesday, 22 January 2014 18:17 (ten years ago) link
There should be a star beside each Jewish user's name.
― Pleasant Plains, Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:33 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― flopson, Wednesday, 22 January 2014 20:10 (ten years ago) link
― Aimless, Wednesday, 22 January 2014 18:17 (2 hours ago) Permalink
no, you merely petition for the right to do so here
― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 22 January 2014 20:38 (ten years ago) link
can I get a star next to my name
― frogbs, Wednesday, 22 January 2014 20:41 (ten years ago) link
it'll cost ya
― quincie, Thursday, 23 January 2014 01:33 (ten years ago) link
You gotta work for it
― Ayn Rand Akbar (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 23 January 2014 02:37 (ten years ago) link
Please, sir! May I annoy some jews?
http://thehpalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/oliver_twist_david_lean_0.jpg
― Aimless, Thursday, 23 January 2014 04:40 (ten years ago) link
Pe-ti-TIOOOOON ...PETITION!
― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Thursday, 23 January 2014 04:45 (ten years ago) link
No one gonna post Alec Guinness from that film?
― Insane Prince of False Binaries (Gukbe), Thursday, 23 January 2014 05:26 (ten years ago) link