Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

bluetini actually a sex act available only in florida

http://thegrio.com/2012/11/20/71-year-old-black-man-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-jury-rejects-stand-your-ground-claim/

Stop picking on Florida! Can we please get some Stand Your Ground related miscarriages of justice from some other states?

Let's just boycott ALEC

Here are some good 'n's: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/top-five-stand-your-ground-cases-zimmerman

I realize ALEC's role in all of this, but I'm curious - did these laws just pop up all over the country in response to a feeling that the existing laws didn't give people enough leeway to defend themselves when they were in danger?

I just remember arguing with some gun fanatics about a decade ago who were saying the existing laws were insufficient and that you could wind up in jail even if you shot an intruder in many states, all kinds of shit that of course wasn't true but believed wholeheartedly by em all.

Let's just boycott ALEC

― Fetchboy, Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:36 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

now this i'm behind

"black people actually live there, as opposed to Wyoming or New England"

Never cared for this kind of rhetoric because it erases the black people who do live in these places. It was only so many times I could be told I don't exist before it started to bug the hell out of me.

^

How about we have just one day where white people don't make grand pronouncements about black people? Can we do that?

TAKING ALL BETS

djp why you always wanna blame this shit on us man

How about we have just one day where white people don't make grand pronouncements about black people? Can we do that?

― "Post-Oven" (DJP), Wednesday, July 17, 2013 11:47 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lmbo

Jimi Hendrix was the best guitarist of all time

0 days without incident

nominate 1 subject, any subject, dare ilx to go a day without making a grand pronouncement on it. repeat until successful.

https://soundcloud.com/djassault/the-glue

I apologize if I offended anyone, that wasn't my intention. I see how bringing up demographics of New England would be offensive to Rev and DJP and I am really, deeply sorry. My intended point was that boycotting Florida only further marginalizes the non-whites who live there. Referencing demographics was in reaction to "welp there's certainly no gun violence in Vermont" anecdotal arguments I've read elsewhere and it had no bearing on this discussion and I am sorry

Wyoming I mentioned because it's the most gun-violence-per-capita state and it is 90% white.

― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 18 July 2013 02:00 (9 hours ago)

this is not remotely true

the highest rate for gun ownership but the gun murder rate is fairly low in an american context

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

Ah, I typed "violence" but of course meant "ownership". Again, this point might be of use in a discussion about "civilian gun ownership is an instrument of black oppression in America" but that is not really the discussion being had here and I retract it for its irrelevance.

Anyone who doesn't think the Zimmerman/Martin altercation and outcome couldn't have happened just about anywhere in the United States is severely deluded. That said I'm fine with boycotting Florida cuz really Florida basically sucks.

The question is could it have happened in a state without a Stand Your Ground law? I'd say no, since that's basically a no-catch get out of jail free card. You have to go above and beyond to mess up with Stand Your Ground, like the guy in Texas (?) who confronted his elementary school teacher neighbor, lured him out into the street, and then shot him:http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06-27/news/sns-rt-us-usa-shooting-texasbre85r02k-20120627_1_texas-man-texas-firefighter-deadly-force

Looks like pre-2007, Texas law required SYG adherents to seek shelter or try to hide first, but of course that facet of the law was reversed. This guy even tells the police explicitly that he was "standing my ground;" there was reportedly a sense in this trial that he knew exactly what he was up to, legally.

Castle Doctrine would be a good name for a band.

So am I right, then, in assuming there are degrees of SYG laws, and that some are more lax than others?

Defense did not even invoke SYG at trial. And real issues with this case were incompetent/indifferent/possibly even racist police officers and a lack of evidence (possibly due to aforementioned) to refute Zimmerman's self-defense claims at trial. Former are not a unique problem in FLA and latter would not be unique to this case.

I'm fine with focusing ire on SYG and FLA but pretending that FLA has the only shitty cops/prosecutors and that defense lawyers basically anywhere wouldn't have been able to exploit loopholes in this case to get a client off (esp. when victim is a young black male and client is not) seems disingenuous.

I never said that. There is racism everywhere that gets people shot. There are always loopholes - that's the law - but SYG is the world's biggest loophole.

Didn't the juror who is talking say they took SYG into account, whether they were told to or not?

In an interview on CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360 Monday night, an anonymous juror said the panel that found George Zimmerman not guilty considered Florida’s Stand Your Ground law in its deliberations. Earlier reports suggested the notorious law that authorizes the unfettered use of deadly force in self-defense was not applied to the case, because Zimmerman’s lawyers opted not to request a Stand Your Ground hearing. But as ThinkProgress explained in a post earlier today, the jury instructions contained the law’s key provision and instructed jurors that self-defense meant Zimmerman was entitled to “stand his ground” with “no duty to retreat.”

I don't think that those two elements are critical here since in Zimmerman's telling at the point where he shoot Martin there was no opportunity to retreat.

shot

pretending that FLA has the only shitty cops/prosecutors and that defense lawyers basically anywhere wouldn't have been able to exploit loopholes in this case to get a client off (esp. when victim is a young black male and client is not) seems disingenuous.

sure, and this post will come in very handy if anybody ever does that

JIC - But in 2013, Zimmerman could not have gotten away with what he specifically got away with anywhere, just in some select places.

"no duty to retreat"

I addressed that.

JIC - But in 2013, Zimmerman could not have gotten away with what he specifically got away with anywhere, just in some select places.

ah, if you're gonna push that hard on "able to exploit loopholes...to get a client off" then otm. anybody anywhere could potentially get away with anything.

I think the specifics of this case make it easy to imagine Zimmerman being acquitted of second degree murder anywhere in the US.

You know, I'm going to stand my ground here, to coin a phrase. The vast majority of this case could and does occur all over, especially the stalking, calling the police, etc. Even the shooting. But a civilian admitting to following and then killing an unarmed teenager after the police told you not to leave your car, then getting an acquittal? No, that shit does not happen everywhere, not where someone ends up with anything less than manslaughter. In fact, if you could find a comparably audacious case in the modern era, I bet a manslaughter conviction would be cited as an example of a cop-op compromise and symbol of a racist system. But an acquittal, given the facts of the case? That needs some special SYG doing.

xpost I agree with that. But manslaughter should have been the runner-up, not an acquittal.

911 dispatchers are not police, they are civilians, and have no statutory authority to require you to do anything at all. It sucks, but that's the way it is. Zimmerman was under no obligation to obey the 911 dispatcher however strongly or weakly worded "Stay in the car" was.

xxxp I think you are dreaming.

One thing I will concede is that some of the specifics of the specifics of this case would not be likely occur in some places (due to geography, economics, other laws governing carrying of firearms, etc). But assuming we are talking about the same case in all regards and we've just moved the locale magically to let's say SF well I don't have much reason to doubt that the outcome would be the same (with a hung jury at best on the manslaughter charge).

That's surprising to me. What would the defense be?

Besides SYG (which CA has, correct)?

Regardless, weakened SYG laws would undoubtedly make this kind of outcome less likely.

maybe i'm wrong. if anyone's got a similar recent case (armed civilian pursues, confronts and kills an unarmed civilian against the advice of authorities, is not immediately arrested and when charged, is found guilty of nothing), i'd like to hear about it.

The defense is the same (self-defense). At point where Zimmerman is on the ground having his head slammed into the pavement, it is largely irrelevant what the 911 dispatch told him or whatever other mistakes he made. He was reasonably afraid for his life and had to defend himself.

I don't get what we're fighting about. Florida being a giant redneck turd that should be flushed into the ocean and the rest of America being filled with racist fickheads aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Let's sink Florida now while the irons hot & pick of the rest as we go

Fickheads!

I can't disagree.

ums otm

florida is full of lots of very nice people, and people who should not fall into the ocean. it is also home to a great deal of poverty and misery (not uniquely, i know, but especially so for historical/demographic reasons and especially lately because of the role of its real estate in the last boom bust cycle)

bear in mind if you want florida to fall into the ocean that includes all the people in florida that are on the receiving end of all the crummy stuff that you are now identifying with florida.